Justine Doiron Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Each week, I talk to the most interesting culinary folks around. Joining me today is Justine Doiron, the recipe developer and TikTok sensation known as Justine Snacks. Not only has Justine captivated an entire generation with her viral recipe videos, but she also is responsible for last year's butter board craze. In the process, she discovered that a lot of people have deeply held opinions about butter boards. Not sure what a butter board is? Stay tuned. We also discussed the unique challenges of being a content creator, how Justine became a TikTok star, and what she's doing for her upcoming cookbook. Justine and I also have a candid conversation about her eating disorder. I wanted to flag that in case it's something you or a loved one are dealing with. I'll chat with Justine in just a minute.
A little housekeeping, our Jubilee conference is taking place Saturday, April 15th, at Center 415 in Manhattan. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women in and around the world of food and drink. This will be our 10th in-person Jubilee. It's also Cherry Bombe's 10th birthday. Can you believe it? Jubilee is filled with great talks, networking, beautiful things to eat and drink, and lots of opportunities for connection, conversation, and community. Jubilee tickets are on sale now, so visit cherrybombe.com for more, or click on the link in our show notes. I would love to see you at Jubilee.
This episode of Radio Cherry Bombe is supported by Käserei Champignon, a 115-year-old cheese producer and the maker of Cambozola. This fine cheese is made with Bavarian alpine milk, and crafted by master cheese makers dedicated to using all natural ingredients and traditional methods to create one of a kind cheeses. Cambozola, a triple cream soft-ripened cheese with delicate notes of blue, is truly a cheese like no other. For a more intense experience, try Cambozola Black Label, aged longer and colder than Cambozola Classic. This bold and exceptionally creamy cheese was a 2020 best-in-class winner at the renowned World Championship Cheese Contest. From cheese boards to remarkable recipes, Cambozola is always an opportunity to taste the extraordinary. Try it on top of a portobello in a sexy salad or on a sliced steak crostini for a truly indulgent experience. Visit thisisfinecheese.com to find recipes, pairings, and where to buy Cambozola at a store near you. It's not blue. It's not Brie. It's Cambozola.
Now, let's check in with today's guest. Justine Doiron, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Justine Doiron:
Thank you for having me. I'm honored. I'm an old, old Cherry Bombe listener.
Kerry Diamond:
You're doing so many interesting things, and you really are in the thick of it right now in terms of what people are talking about and thinking about. So, let's jump in. When did you join TikTok?
Justine Doiron:
I joined TikTok in 2020. I feel like there was a huge wave that happened during the pandemic. I joined because I was a publicist at the time, and I knew my boss was going to be like, "What is this app? You need to teach me how to use it." My worst fear was being like, "I cannot understand it." As soon as you download TikTok, it's a monster of overwhelming content, and so I realized the only way that I was going to be able to understand the app is if I started creating content on it. So, it was strictly a work creation.
Kerry Diamond:
When and why did you start making food videos?
Justine Doiron:
It was the first style of video I made, and that's because I didn't want to get fired. And so I needed content that I didn't have to put my face in, something I knew how to do and something that, I laugh at this looking back, I thought was easy to produce. Now that I'm doing it professionally, I'm like, "I can't believe I chose that medium." I also was doing food videos in a way that is so looking back kitschy and jokey, because I thought it was an app for kids. I thought 12-year-olds were watching this, so I was like, "What would teenagers want to see? A sushi turned into a cake, and pasta turned into flowers." It was all this crazy stuff.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, how interesting. So, you're trying to keep this on the down-low, but your employer at the time did not look favorably on your social media hobby. Tell us about the memo that was sent to employees about social media activity.
Justine Doiron:
Oh wow. I can only speak favorably of my team. Unfortunately, my team has since, most of them have been laid off because the company had to do major downsizing, but my team was super supportive. The company actually sent a company-wide email asking about moonlighting, and then they shared all the examples, "That could be a second job. That could be a YouTube channel," just this huge company-wide email. So, I didn't feel particularly targeted, but I knew I had to disclose what I was doing. Then it was calls and calls and calls with standards, the ethics team, lawyers because the company had to set a precedent of what to do when your employee becomes an online content creator.
I was the first, but I've recently spoken with people still at the company. I am far from the last, and they were trying to set very strict standards.
Kerry Diamond:
But that's a lot. I mean, you still are young. You were even younger then. Was your head spinning? You're like, "Oh my god, lawyers, I just want to keep my job."
Justine Doiron:
I wanted to keep my job so badly. I even told my SVP at the time, I was like, "I really want you to advocate for me. I can do both. We can make this work." Also, it got all the way up the ladder to our content VP, and she was all for it. It was just the legal team really saw a lot of conflict of interest, a lot of potential problems, which I don't blame them. I took it very personally at the time. I still am very sad that I had to leave that job. It was very much an ultimatum situation, choose your job or choose your accounts, but I really do think leaving gave me so much creativity and so much freedom, scariest thing I ever did, but it really worked out for me.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I heard they inadvertently helped you, because you realized you were doing some sponsored projects at the time, but you were way undercharging.
Justine Doiron:
The amounts that I was charging is now looking back hysterical. I thought I was making so much money. I was making $200 for an ad post. When my company was telling me, "It's either us or your accounts," I was like, "I can't do brand deals right now, so I'll just give them crazy numbers." They met those numbers without blinking an eye. Then I realized that you can definitely sustain a life in content creation with one or two brand deals a month, and it's not this humongous endeavor that I thought it was going to be. That is what helped me jump the nest.
Kerry Diamond:
You weren't really thinking of this as a career at that point though, or were you?
Justine Doiron:
No, I wasn't because the narrative at least fed to me... I'm an older or middle-millennial. The narrative fed to us is that content can go away in a second. This is the most unstable job you can ever have. I love stability. I love plans. I love the idea of having a long career. I definitely wanted to be a woman in a pantsuit till the day I died, and so I did not think of this as the path for me. Even then, the idea of monetizing only off of brand deals didn't feel very stable, and I've expanded my brand since then so I don't have to rely on that. So, I had no idea that it could be a career, and it was really getting pushed to the brink to make me turn it into a career.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you do much social media in college?
Justine Doiron:
No, I didn't have an Instagram until 2016.
Kerry Diamond:
How about Facebook or any of the others?
Justine Doiron:
I had Facebook, but I was actually one of the first abandoners of Facebook, also in 2016. I just dropped it for Instagram, because that's when they were having a lot of their public information gathering scandals. I looked at it, and I was like, "I don't really need this. I only use it for group projects." When I look at everything put together, there were zero clues pointing me to this path except for the fact that I've always loved food.
Kerry Diamond:
You went to the hospitality school at Cornell University. Why did you want to go there? Was a career in hospitality of interest?
Justine Doiron:
Very much so, and that's a great school. I think it's really funny, also, my path to there. I was a guest services consultant as my high school job at the St. Louis Zoo, best zoo in America. I just loved people. I loved hospitality, and I loved working with customers, and so my 18-year-old brain was like, "I'm just going to do this the whole time." Then I go to the most intense program in the United States, where all of these kids have been working in kitchens since they were 13 or living and breathing for the hotel industry. I felt so intimidated and so lost, because I was just a person there because I liked people, and I liked service. I liked food and beverage, but I didn't know that it was the juggernaut it is today.
We didn't have to show the bear then to dramatize all the ugly parts. I went to Cornell, and it's an amazing program. I had an amazing time, but I don't think I took advantage of it the way I could have, because I was surrounded by the best of the best, and I shrunk into myself. I definitely regret that. I did get a great base of culinary knowledge, but I always regret that I didn't dive into it the way I could have. It was just because my surroundings were so intimidating, but I'm so glad I have that network now.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you stay in touch with folks there? I mean, you're one of their superstar grads now.
Justine Doiron:
I've stayed in touch. I've also met people through being in the industry now who just started in the industry right after school and stayed there. It's such a blessing to be able to reconnect and have that in common, because it's a very small school. I think about 200 students per class within Cornell, which is a humongous school. But when you connect with people, everybody knows everybody, so that's something that's been really nice to have.
Kerry Diamond:
How did public relations wind up becoming your thing?
Justine Doiron:
Oh, that's interesting. I got a great internship the summer after my sophomore year, and that was in L.A., and that was for the entertainment industry. At that time, I just wanted to work. I've always been a workhorse. I've never not worked in... Since 15, I've never not had a job of some sort.
Kerry Diamond:
Was that your 42West internship?
Justine Doiron:
Yeah, so I was working in a cubicle two feet away from Halle Berry's publicist. I was like, "I'm in too deep." I was also a hospitality student at the time, and so I was also working with Beck Media & Marketing, so I was doing part-time at two jobs. Beck is actually where I learned a lot, and got a lot of networking down. That is where I started public relations, but I knew I had to put a hospitality spin on it. So after graduating college, I worked in PR for a lot of food and beverage brands, and then transferred that PR experience to ABC News.
Kerry Diamond:
That is a very A-list, high-paced place similar to 42West. What was your experience like there?
Justine Doiron:
Very high-paced. I got that job through a friend who was working there. He's still a very close friend. There was quite the twist from doing my hospitality PR to... I was working on one of their political shows. It was right after the 2016 election, and it was with one of their most successful now vice presidents, but one of their most successful executive producers running the ship. I was the only publicist assigned to that show. I had my manager above me, she's now at Peacock. Everybody just goes everywhere. That pace I thrived because it was on the weekends, so it was a three-day a week job.
You worked really hard for three days, and then for the four days that we were prepping for the show, there wasn't really much to do. It was a very interesting job. I left after a year and a half because I knew there was more for me outside of a three-day a week job, but it gave me a look into a side of news and media and the ethics behind media that I still carry with me today. Whenever people critique media, all I can think about is the team I worked there, how much respect I have for them, how hard they worked, how ethical they were behind their coverage. I was very proud to work there for the time I did.
Kerry Diamond:
What a time to be there right after the 2016 election. I can't even imagine working in news at that time.
Justine Doiron:
It was exhausting, but it was definitely worth it.
Kerry Diamond:
Then you moved to your next company. The memo happens, and we know what happened after that. Where did you grow up?
Justine Doiron:
I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, but then for about five to six years in the middle of my childhood, we were expats in Hong Kong. So, it gave me what I call the best of both worlds. I have very grounded Midwestern roots. If anyone is listening from the Midwest, they know exactly what I'm talking about. It can't be replicated anywhere else, but it also gave me an appreciation for cultures outside of my own, and a lack of fear of cultures outside of my own, because I think that is another problem with growing up in the Midwest is at least in my family, we were very steak and potatoes. There was a lot of fear of the unknown. I feel like having that experience and having my dad push us out to live somewhere else really just made me question being wary of anything else.
Kerry Diamond:
How young were you when you went to Hong Kong?
Justine Doiron:
I think I was there aged 6 to 12, 5 to 12.
Kerry Diamond:
What memories do you have of Hong Kong?
Justine Doiron:
Lots of memories of the markets. Stanley Market was the one place we'd go, and I just remember my mom was terrified, but as kids, we had a blast because everything was at our eye level. It was just crowded, and you could smell everything. It was right next to a fish market, so I remember that. I also remember going to the beaches, which are not like American beaches. I do remember going to HKIS [Hong Kong International School], which was an international school, so my friends were French. They were Canadian. They were Chinese. It was just a humongous group of kids all sent to one place. It was a very vibrant city. I want to go back as an adult. I haven't had the opportunity to yet.
Kerry Diamond:
I love Hong Kong. 6 to 12, though, those are very formative years.
Justine Doiron:
Very much, although they did not teach us Cantonese. They taught us Mandarin, which I find so interesting as a choice for Hong Kong, but a very good learning opportunity, so young, but when you come back and you're a teenager, I feel like those are the years you really appreciate things. So, it felt like if I could have chosen, I would've flipped it.
Kerry Diamond:
Then you come back at the age of 12. That's another tough age to start a new school, do things like that. How was your re-entry?
Justine Doiron:
Re-entry was… I wouldn't say difficult. It was just the life we lived. You go. You have this massive experience. But when you're that young, it doesn't feel like a massive experience. Then when you're older, you begin to process it a bit more.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you more open-minded about food because of the time you spent in Hong Kong?
Justine Doiron:
I was definitely more curious about food. I talk about this a lot. I grew up in a family that didn't really prioritize food, and when I started the job that I have now, I felt like I was 10 steps behind people. So, people would have stories about learning how to cook at their grandma's kitchen under the table, and would talk about these big family dinners they had. I felt like we grew up in Hong Kong, but we were definitely still eating Americanized food there. We were definitely expats. We would go out to eat, but it was just different than what it would've been if I was older.
I was still relatively sheltered. Then moving back, I didn't really have a family that was really teaching me how to cook, or deeply rooted in a food culture. So, I always see myself as a self-made cook or a self-taught cook, and I call myself homemade. That's the phrase I use, because it definitely didn't feel like food was a huge priority for us. So, when we came back from Hong Kong, my dad was the big chef of the family, but he was always working, so he never did it often. But every three months, he'd have these ruckus parties where wine would be flowing, and he'd be making appetizers at our little open floor kitchen plan.
That's where I really realized food had magic, where it was truly bringing people together. It rarely happened, but he would cook things that he had learned in Hong Kong. He'd also bring in inspiration that he got from other places. That's when I realized there's something there for me. It wasn't all the time, but when it did happen, I knew that I wanted to be a part of it.
Kerry Diamond:
I know we did a trigger warning in the beginning, but I just want to add a second trigger warning in case people skipped through my intro. We are going to be talking about eating disorders. Justine has been very candid on TikTok about this, and she has graciously agreed to talk about this today. I hope there are some folks out there who this conversation helps. Justine, thank you again for being willing to talk about this. You have been so candid on TikTok about your eating disorder. Why did you make that decision?
Justine Doiron:
It came with the content I was creating and a rolling boil of me knowing that I needed to share it, because when I started creating food videos, they were definitely deeply rooted in not necessarily diet culture, but food rules that I thought I had to follow. So, I was doing mostly accidentally gluten-free things, accidentally vegan things, so I grew a big vegan and gluten-free following. I was like, "Where did all these people come from?" I realized it's because I wasn't really making the food I wanted to make. I was making the food that subliminally I thought was safe.
When I started my accounts, I would say I was two years “healed,” although I don't use the word “healed” anymore, because healing is not linear, but I thought I was good. I was like, "Oh, I'm fine." It was through making my food accounts, and making these recipes that I realized, "No, I still feel restricted in some ways," and so I was personally processing through that as I was creating content. I thought, "This is valuable information for people to have. This is where people can meet me where I'm at."
For everybody listening to give them an overview, I suffered with binge eating disorder from age 13 to 23. This came with food not being a huge part of my family, but restriction being a huge part of my family, and having to navigate that as an adolescent, and then taking that all the way with me through college, and never really feeling safe. It was in adulthood that I started to feel safe with food, and that has only grown with my accounts. That's where I say healing is not linear, because going through this experience, and making food my job, it's made my relationship with food a lot more intimate, but a lot more insecure.
What I mean about that is there are multiple well-documented studies that when you go through a period of starvation, or any human goes through a period of forced restriction, they become more likely to be hyper fixated on food later in life. I recently shared this. I love what I do, but I do wonder if I was meant to do it. So, I have this very close, very passionate, very, for lack of a better word, electric relationship with food. But I do wonder, "Did I do that to myself?"
Kerry Diamond:
You had talked about discovering that food was magical via your dad doing these parties, and him cooking. When did it turn for you to something you struggled with?
Justine Doiron:
It was definitely when I was young. Those parties, I'd say they took place when we were coming back from Hong Kong. This podcast will actually be the first place I'm going to disclose this. My dad got very sick when I was 13, so those things correlated. So, the parties stopped. My anxiety got higher, and my need to control something also came into play. It also parlayed into the fact that I'm just a different-sized human, and at age 13, I was. I just was very much told to be the straight A student, to be the hard worker, to be the perfect person, you need to look a certain way.
It was just all this compounding external factors that made that turn happen. It does hurt to talk about, because I know how much I missed out on. I know that when I opened up and connected with people about this, that was a big thing that people shared back is when you're going through something like this, you know what you're missing. You know logically that if you could be healed, you could have so much more like time with your friends or experiences, because food is an experience. That's another thing that people talk about all the time. So, when it turned for me, it was definitely hard, but I was so far in it that I didn't realize it.
Kerry Diamond:
Justine, I'm so sorry.
Justine Doiron:
That's okay. I'm glad that I've been able to process through it the way that I have.
Kerry Diamond:
I know you don't like the word healing, but I just think there's something so wonderful about what you do on TikTok and what you put out into the world.
Justine Doiron:
I really hope so. I know it's only small, short one-minute videos, but I really want people to take away from them that if you are feeling trapped or even uncomfortable or just slightly afraid of food, there are so many ways to use it and to empower yourself with it. That's the other thing I try to bring to my accounts is I started as a "health food account," but I still hold true to feeling like I cook really healthy, wholesome, balanced things. Call me later when you see the coffee cake I'm dropping next week, but I think that's just such a core part of my ethos that I'm not defined, but there's a strong undertone of, "I want you to feel nourished when you see the food I make."
Kerry Diamond:
Did you start to talk about your eating disorder on TikTok, because you thought you could help others, or were you ultimately trying to help yourself first?
Justine Doiron:
It helped me immensely. I feel like I needed to justify what was happening. I'm not going to lie. I think going viral is a privilege, but also an algorithm that you can hack. I did know that a lot of people were going to see it, and that is being horrendously transparent, but it being that honest and being able to be vulnerable to a community, and turn a one-side conversation into a two-sided conversation healed me and brought a new sense of what social media was to me in a way that I never would've seen it before. I truly hope now it helps more people. As I talk about it, this is not a selfish endeavor anymore, because it can't be. It's more shameful than selfish at this point, but I still talk about it because now I see the value in it.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you able to get outside help anywhere along this journey?
Justine Doiron:
I started therapy at age 28, and that has been really helpful. Personal healing during the disorder, I did that on my own.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Justine Doiron:
That's because we talked about my career as many twists and turns as it had. All of them did not pay well. When I was at ABC, I didn't have insurance. So my primary healing time, I was on my own.
Kerry Diamond:
In high school, college, there just weren't resources you made available to you?
Justine Doiron:
There were probably resources I could have used. I did not know it was a disorder. That's the other thing that I think talking about it is helpful. I was not bulimic, nor was I anorexic. I had binge-eating disorder, so I did not think of that as something diagnosable. I just thought it was gluttony. I think that's another thing that's very damaging about that is when you feel a robot in your brain, and you feel uncontrollable, and it's taking days of your life away from you, it can be categorized as a disorder. That's why I speak so freely about it now is because I think the people who are told like, "Oh, this is just a problem. It's not something to seek help for," then it turns into what I did, which was eight years of delaying getting help.
Kerry Diamond:
For folks out there who maybe are suffering through something similar, or are relating to what you're talking about, or maybe know someone in their lives who could be going through this, do you have any suggestions or advice for them?
Justine Doiron:
It's definitely hard to know when to seek professional help, and I am of course caveating that I'm not a professional and also did not have that experience. I first started my healing process through a book called Brain Over Binge, which is the first resource I give everybody. But of course everybody's journey is not the same, so I think absolutely disclosing it to somebody you trust, and then seeking help from there is the best resource. I also think it is so easy to reach out to people on social media. I used to offer that my DMs are open until I realized I can't help. There's a time where people really want to feel heard, and then there's a time where people really want to heal, and I definitely think professional resources are the best for them.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you. It's clear you've been sharing some of your personal life on TikTok. I want to talk about creator burnout because that is a very real thing, especially when it comes to TikTok and Instagram reels. How do you protect yourself, and take care of yourself in respect to the work that you do?
Justine Doiron:
I have experienced burnout. I think what's very interesting is I have yet to see a creator talk about it in their content, because we all know about it. We all talk about it on podcasts and long-form format. I've never seen somebody making a video say like, "This is what I'm going through. This is where I'm at." I think there is a lot of pressure to be happy all the time, and gloss over everything. I am too in deep with how honest I am to be that person, so I definitely wrote a burnout for seven, eight months, and I had to protect myself by taking a tangible step back and being honest about it, because that's the other thing. Food doesn't lie, and people could tell that I was not happy making that food.
I think that's where the emotional connection to food comes in and also the emotional attachment to content creation, because you might not notice it if you're a consumer right now listening who scrolls their phone for recipe ideas. You might not notice it and think, "Oh, I'm not going to like this video, because that person didn't enjoy making it," but it comes across on the content. So, to protect myself, I just know that my motto is ‘cook happy,’ and also, I will live to see another day of putting a video out. It doesn't have to be today.
Kerry Diamond:
Some folks might be like, "What is this burnout? I don't understand. You're so lucky. You're home. You're making videos. You're your own boss," but you are by yourself. I think that is a big part of it. You don't necessarily have a team. I mean, some of the biggest creators eventually get a team, but you are home by yourself.
Justine Doiron:
That's the biggest struggle for me. I called it during the pandemic micro de-stressors. Throughout the day, the commute you would take to work might not be fun, but having the coffee is my micro de-stressor, and having that weird chat with Rob from accounting is another social expression that you get. I don't get that, and so it also makes my days a little bit more anxious to be completely transparent. I tell people this all the time. I'm not inherently a very good food stager. I'm not a very visual person. I'm a very auditory person.
I learned on the job. You can scroll back through my content, and see how I learned on the job. Sometimes I have a great recipe. It's delicious, but the staging doesn't work out. So, that burnout comes from having to film something three or four times, and by that time, you don't really want to be filming that. Then it also comes from creative burnout of, I really want to make a ricotta lemon pasta. How many of those do we have? Does that justify my audience's attention for this day? So, it's having these standards be so high, and having the goalpost keep moving, and I think that's where the burnout comes from too.
Kerry Diamond:
Then unlike let's say Rob from accounting who we just talked about, when Rob from accounting is doing his work, he doesn't have a million people weighing in on what they think of it.
Justine Doiron:
It's not even about the big things sometimes, the tiny things. I've had somebody pick apart a caption of mine on Instagram, which I didn't know people still read captions. Then compare it to another video from six months ago, and I was like, "Wow, this is a lot of critique," that it felt like we were in English class, and I was a novel. So, it's definitely... It's interesting being aware of the opinions. I think for my own creativity, I try to take a step back from them.
Kerry Diamond:
You are not a book. You are a human being, and people forget that.
Justine Doiron:
I think on a human level, humans understand. Every time I put on my Instagram or tell anybody I'm feeling a little creatively uninspired or burnout, everybody will be like, "Take a break. We're here for you." I love that. What they don't understand is I treat my audience like my boss, but the algorithm is the real Catch-22. So, I think when we're looking at sustainability for humans and creators and social media, that's really going to have to be a conversation that we elevate to the people running these platforms. I had a friend, Liz Moody, who you had on this podcast-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love Liz.
Justine Doiron:
... proposed the idea of sabbatical mode, where it gives a creator the opportunity to turn on sabbatical mode, which means, "I'm off for two weeks," and it can't hurt them, or it can't take away what their audience is seeing, because I've had a post or two just not get seen. That can be because I post at the same time as a bunch of other people, and the algorithm can only show so much. I always tell this to content creators. Sometimes it's not the content. Sometimes it is, but a lot of times, you're working with this algorithm.
So in terms of sustainability, we have all these great minds talking about how content creators can create in seasons or batch content or really build in breaks to that, but I think the biggest thing we're not looking at is the people running these platforms.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a great point. I feel like every time someone says algorithm, they need to raise a fist at the heavens and be like, "The algorithm."
Justine Doiron:
I never thought I would be the girl who's like, "I complain." I usually don't complain about the algorithm. I've been very blessed by many algorithms, but you can't ignore it.
Kerry Diamond:
That's okay. You don't post every day.
Justine Doiron:
I don't.
Kerry Diamond:
That is definitely something you do to protect yourself. How often do you post, and why?
Justine Doiron:
I post Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. I'm thinking of switching it up to Tuesday, Sunday just for my own mental health, and also to sustain the power of my work. I know people who post once a week, and it's just a great post, and I think that's valuable. I think it's really sustainable. I post more on TikTok. Over the summer, I posted five days a week, tried that out, not for me. That's because when I do post a brand deal, one, I'm very proud of the brand deals I put out. I feel like that's bonus content, and you're still as a viewer entitled to standard content.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting. Let's talk about your videos themselves, because people just love them. The Cut describes your videos as “soothing in their simplicity and gentle in their delivery.” How did your aesthetic evolve to what it is today?
Justine Doiron:
It has evolved so much. I first started doing the voiceovers in a bright, happy, Buzzfeed Tasty style, and it just never felt authentic to me. So, I started incorporating more storytelling. Then when I started posting more on Instagram, which was never really a priority for me until it's now a huge priority, I have a huge and different audience. Everybody wanted the recipe for my videos, so I just used Instagram. I'd screenshot the TikTok, and write the caption in the Instagram post, and that was before reels existed. I remember sitting in my bed, and I was just putting all the recipes on Instagram begrudgingly.
I turned to my boyfriend, and I was like, "Oh, I have 17 followers," because I didn't think anybody would follow me. I thought it would just be a resource. It didn't feel real until I think I had about 800 followers, and I was like, "Oh, I need to start making this a big thing." My videos have definitely evolved, and it also... Looking back a year ago, I probably don't like my content. I think that's very healthy. I think if you're a content creator, you should cringe six months back at what you were doing, because that means you're growing. So, my content went from bright, happy, fast to then on Instagram, I thought the only thing that was cool were these aggressive, loud, choppy ASMR [autonomous sensory meridian response] videos, which just looking back are not me.
I still chop a lot, which sometimes I'm like, "Can I just do my meson plus to the side, please?" It was just not me, not authentic to me. I finally got the guts, because I realized Instagram was, its attention span was slowing down. It was ready for longer videos. I was like, "I'm ready to speak for my work. I'm ready to share my stories, and I'm ready to share or at least about my food." Now, I really just stick to the food, because it is creatively taxing to do stories and meaning and inspiration, and people really responded to that. That's how I found my voice. I think it took me a good year.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's walk through the video creation process. What do you shoot your videos on?
Justine Doiron:
iPhone 13.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you use to edit your videos?
Justine Doiron:
I use Final Cut Pro.
Kerry Diamond:
How about recording your voice overs?
Justine Doiron:
I talk into my phone. I really want to upgrade to a big mic, but I have this superstition. That's the other thing about me. I'm so superstitious. I have this superstition that TikTok and Instagram reward me for recording it on their own platforms, which is why my videos are different, because I record my voice overs twice.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, interesting. Next thing I want to talk about is how TikTok creators make a living, because that's a mystery to a lot of folks. You've diversified yourself a bit more.
Justine Doiron:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you just walk us through briefly your various income streams, if you don't mind sharing them?
Justine Doiron:
Absolutely. I've worked really hard to get it 50/50, and I'm very proud of that. It used to be 80/20. 20% was income from my blog clicks. I have a blog that has ads on it, but you don't pay anything to go to it. So if you've made a recipe of mine, and you've looked at my blog, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. The 80% was brand deals. Now, it's 50/50. My blog is getting a lot more. It's just a rolling boil. It's showing up in Google a lot more. People love a kale salad. That's how I make money. I'd really love to start a paid tier of my Substack.
I, again, don't know what that looks like, and it feels bad to go into anything half-baked, but I do really see a future for myself with brand deals probably being 20%. I'd love to make the blog how I make money. This varies greatly for a lot of TikTok creators. I'm talking with somebody who works really strongly with affiliate links. I'm talking with somebody who makes a lot from the TikTok Creator Fund. That's very rare. It's just very different for everybody.
Kerry Diamond:
What's the TikTok Creator Fund?
Justine Doiron:
It's different from YouTube ad revenue. TikTok created a... I don't remember how much money it was. It was probably a billion dollars, but it was just a big pool of money. That money eventually will run out, which is why it's different from YouTube AdSense. Creators are paid per view if you apply for the creative program. However, a lot of creators felt like their views were being suppressed through being part of that creative program, so a lot of people aren't part of it willingly.
Kerry Diamond:
So, you do a lot of brand partnerships, and you now have an agent who helps you with those?
Justine Doiron:
I have a manager. She's amazing. Hi, Lisa [Poe]. She's wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
How did Lisa come into your life?
Justine Doiron:
Lisa actually worked on the brand side. My longest-term partner is Garden Of Life. I am going to give them free promo here, because I highly endorse everything they do. They were the brand partner actually, that gave me the financial stability to leave my job. That was because of Lisa. Then Lisa left to start her own management company in January of last year. About nine months later, I signed with her, and it was the best decision I ever made.
Kerry Diamond:
Great. I'm happy to hear that. So, that takes some pressure off you in terms of these partnerships.
Justine Doiron:
It definitely streamlines the process. I still am a one-woman show outside of her, and I think that will eventually need to expand just to keep up with all the platforms.
Kerry Diamond:
Your name is “Justine Snacks.” How did that name come about?
Justine Doiron:
Everything that started this account was a joke. That was the other thing. In the fear of not wanting to lose my job, I was like, "I have to be anonymous." So, everybody had “Rachel Eats” or “Martin Cooks” or “Blank's Kitchen.” I was like, "I'll just be Justine Snacks. Nobody's snacking yet."
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's funny.
Justine Doiron:
Here we are.
Kerry Diamond:
Your food has evolved to be way more than snacks.
Justine Doiron:
I'm the full meal.
Kerry Diamond:
You are the full meal. How would you describe Justine Snacks cuisine?
Justine Doiron:
Oh gosh, this is an interesting question, because I've been thinking a lot about how to define and refine my own personal food style. I definitely think I operate with a certain level of innovation and uniqueness. I think that I also hold really strongly to rustic preparation. I think you can be rustic and polished, and neither of these means that you're not complex. I just think it's just a different style of personal cooking. I also think that Justine Snacks' meals rotate around ingredients, but it definitely isn't beholden to them. So, you can always make substitutions.
Kerry Diamond:
Fantastic. What is your recipe development process like? Do you put a lot of time into that?
Justine Doiron:
I do. I take the recipes that I develop very seriously, because after having so many people make your recipes, number one, they have to work. I never want to ruin anybody's dinner. When somebody comes to my blog with a comment saying, "Oh, this happened, or this happened," know that I'm personally gutted, and I will work with you. So, take that very seriously. Also, I want to give people something different and something that they're excited about for dinner, whether that's crispy quinoa that you've never had before, which is so simple, or whether it's taking brothy beans, and elevating them with adobo. I always want to add that extra spice, so I take that process very seriously. Everything gets tested about twice, but my process is I start with the concept, and then I have to find a visual reference because, again, visuals don't come easy to me, so I find something that looks similar that I can stage the meal around, and then it goes into testing and the rest of the process.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your most successful video to date?
Justine Doiron:
On TikTok, there is a video that was a series finale. I did a four-part series all about my ex-boyfriends. This finale video is about meeting my current partner. His name is Eric. That one-
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, those are your most successful videos?
Justine Doiron:
It sits at two and a half million likes.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you making food as you talked about the exes?
Justine Doiron:
Yes. So, the series was making recipes inspired by my ex-boyfriends, and so that was a long time ago. But in terms of most viral and most cooked, definitely my baked salads, and then definitely in terms of most viral, the butter board.
Kerry Diamond:
What is a baked salad?
Justine Doiron:
Oh, I love a baked salad. That's actually a video that I started in 2020, and then I just repeat it every year. A baked salad is, for lack of a better word, a salad that is baked. I take hefty vegetables, so that's Swiss chard, kale, cabbage, and roast it till it's like nice and crispy and really just hearty. Then I usually do some version of an Agrodolce dressing. I play around with it. I've done a million now, and then, of course, some much needed crunch. It's just wholesome filling. People love it, because it's a full meal, and you feel really good eating it.
Kerry Diamond:
Some people might call it roast vegetables.
Justine Doiron:
Maybe.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe. Definitely.
Justine Doiron:
Sweetgreen could definitely say that they make baked salads first. I think the addition of the green is what makes it more salad than just a vegetable roast.
Kerry Diamond:
Got it. If people want to know more, there are videos you can watch, folks. We have to talk about the butter board. I just find this so hilarious. I'm pro-butter board. Just for the record, folks, I think I've... When we interviewed Ina Garten, we talked about the butter board, and I've outed myself as pro-butter board. Ina, I'm sorry Justine, not pro-butter board.
Justine Doiron:
I appreciated the support.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the butter board come about?
Justine Doiron:
The butter board, so this is a funny story. I was going on a press trip, and I knew I didn't have a lot of time to create content. It wasn't called a butter board in his book, but Joshua McFadden has the cookbook Six Seasons. In it, he has a recipe called Herbed Butter and Warm Bread. It's essentially butter on a board, so I was like, "Oh, I'll just tell people about this recipe. It'll be a video that I can film in an hour, and I can post it when I'm on my press trip. Who doesn't love butter?" So, I post it. I'm in Ireland having a great time, and so I post the video, and then I'm on Ireland time.
I wake up, and it's doing better in that 24-hour period than any video that I'd ever made. I was surprised because to me, it was just a very easy, quick recipe. Then people started recreating it. I think that's where the drama came in, because to me, what a butter board is this beautiful, rustic restaurant meal where you serve it with radishes, and it's communal and flaky salts and the knife and big dollops, and you spread it, and it's romantic and classy. Then all of a sudden, there are cream cheese boards and pasta boards, soup boards, and people making fun of it, and people saying it's the worst idea, and, "Oh no, it's disgusting." As the creator of it, I felt really attacked and put into this level of kitsch.
Kerry Diamond:
You did. You weren't able to laugh at that?
Justine Doiron:
I felt like I was on the defense, because it gave me so many opportunities. I was on GMA [Good Morning America]. I was on Rachael Ray. I just wanted people to see that this is a beautiful idea. This is fun. This is not something jokey or something gross. A comedian who I really respected and admired ripped me apart, and I was just like... I just felt very on the defense over something so silly, which is, again, ironic because the actual creator of the butter board, Josh, was having the best time of his life.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you working on a cookbook?
Justine Doiron:
I am. The thing that I did not realize about cookbooks is they take a long time. I am in the beginning of stages of one.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. I'm going to stop you there. How could you not know they take a long time?
Justine Doiron:
I thought that since I was a social media creator, that we would just fast track it, because everything in social media works so fast. I know people who can fast track books, but this being my first, I want it done right, so look out for fall of 2024.
Kerry Diamond:
How has the process been?
Justine Doiron:
It's been great. It's been very healing just to work with food in a different capacity, to be able to really take my time. It's been wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you doing the writing, or do you have someone helping you?
Justine Doiron:
I'm doing the writing. It's really important to me. However, the visuals will be completely outsourced.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you enjoying the writing?
Justine Doiron:
I love it. I think not to disclose too much, there's a lot about refining and defining your food style in the book, and I love that I have a place where I can talk about it more.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you announced the title yet?
Justine Doiron:
We have not.
Kerry Diamond:
I won't make you. I won't make you do it. Do you have a title though?
Justine Doiron:
We do.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh, I can't wait. I'm very excited for your cookbook, and I hope we have you back on the show when it comes out. Any 2023 professional goals?
Justine Doiron:
Yes. The big goal is to get into longer-form content, and I have a vision. I have an idea. I want to take my time. So right now, my long-form content exercise that I'm doing is writing the book. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. When the book is done and dusted around summer, we'll be diving into the next version.
Kerry Diamond:
Would you like a show one day, like a Netflix show or Food Network?
Justine Doiron:
I am such a control freak. I want a longer-form platform one day, and that's to prevent creative burnout, and to tell longer stories. I don't know if that, for me, is a show. I think there are lots of self-made avenues that we are so lucky to have now.
Kerry Diamond:
Who are some mentors of yours, or folks you admire in the industry?
Justine Doiron:
There are too many people that I admire to count. If I would name names, it would be unfair, but I have gotten to know Josh through the butter board. He's somebody I look up to so much, and his co-author, Martha Holmberg, also amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that that brought you two together.
Justine Doiron:
In a way, that was really just fun and serendipitous. Then in terms of a direct mentor, she hates this, but Liz Moody who gave the amazing advice on this podcast. If anybody hasn't listened to that episode, please do. It was great. She was the one who told me. She was just like, "Quit your job. Quit your job." She is more of a friend than a mentor, but she always gives the soundest advice. Then in terms of content creators, I am eternally inspired by my peers. If you just do a good dive into your favorite foodies and who they're following online, you will find a treasure trove. Everybody's so different, and I think that's what makes us all so great.
Kerry Diamond:
Little speed round. One of your favorite books on food?
Justine Doiron:
Oh my gosh, I'm reading right now, Our Lady Of Perpetual Hunger.
Kerry Diamond:
By Lisa Donovan?
Justine Doiron:
It's already changed me, and I'm 50% of the way done.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh good, it's a fantastic book.
Justine Doiron:
It's so good.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite food movie.
Justine Doiron:
Ooh, this is because it came out when I was very little. Julie & Julia, Meryl Streep's an icon. It's such an interesting story too with the how... Now that the show Julia is out, thank you Cherry Bombe. It's so interesting, and I just love that movie.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite kitchen tool.
Justine Doiron:
Microplane.
Kerry Diamond:
I knew you're going to say that. One thing that's always in your fridge.
Justine Doiron:
Eggs.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite childhood food.
Justine Doiron:
Eggs.
Kerry Diamond:
What does Justine Snacks say is the snack food of choice?
Justine Doiron:
Norwegian crispbreads, thin, thin, thin spread of fig butter. I'm forgetting the name, but I buy it from Sigdal Bakeri, but they're these little seed breads. You can also get them at Trader Joe's called Norwegian crispbreads. Then I use the Trader Joe's fig butter, but you can use any jam or preserve. It tastes like an adult Pop-Tart, and I can't describe it any better than that.
Kerry Diamond:
Love it. Footwear of choice in the kitchen.
Justine Doiron:
I have these amazing little clogs. They're called... They're Cushionaire brand. I got them off Amazon, and they're so cheap. They're light blue, and they're great.
Kerry Diamond:
They make you smile when you look down at your feet.
Justine Doiron:
They're so ridiculous.
Kerry Diamond:
Any motto or mantra that gets you through the day?
Justine Doiron:
“What got you here won't get you there.”
Kerry Diamond:
If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be, and why?
Justine Doiron:
It would be Ina Garten. I'd be like, "I made you a butter board. I really hope you like it."
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't know who you were going to answer, but I was secretly hoping you were going to say Ina, so you could convince her.
Justine Doiron:
I should have also put her in my huge inspirations list. I think in terms of mentality around food, she's amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
Ina is the queen. We all love her so much.
Justine Doiron:
That's true.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Well, Justine, you really are the Bombe. You are such a special human being, and I can't thank you enough for joining us today, and being so open and just for all the beautiful work you put out into the world.
Justine Doiron:
Thank you for having me. This was wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Justine Doiron for joining me today. Thank you to Käserei Champignon, makers of Cambozola for supporting today's show. Be sure to sign up for the Cherry Bombe newsletter over at cherrybombe.com, so you can stay on top of all Cherry Bombe happenings, podcast episodes, and events. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Today's episode was recorded at CityVox Studios in Manhattan. Our producer is Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thanks for listening. You are the Bombe.