Katarina Cermelj Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and the author of four baking books. Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Our guest today is Katarina Cermelj. Kat is a food writer, photographer, and founder of Rhe Loopy Whisk blog. Kat is also a scientist and has a PhD in inorganic chemistry. So, to put it mildly, she really knows the science behind baking. Kat just released her second book, “The Elements of Baking,” last month. She joins me all the way from the UK to chat about her baking journey, her new book, and her flair for creating allergy-friendly, or as they call them in the U.K., free-from recipes, including her gluten-free cheesy garlic pull-apart bread. We also talk about our mutual love of baking pans with sharp corners and straight sides, her impressive social media following, and her mom, an excellent baker who actually bakes without recipes. I loved nerding out with Kat about baking, so stay tuned for our conversation. If you'd like to follow along, you can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Today's episode is presented by King Arthur Baking Company. Whether you're a serious baker or just a newbie, King Arthur is here to help you be the best baker you can be. King Arthur's flours are some of the most beloved in the industry. As you probably already know from listening to my guests wax poetic about them here on She's My Cherry Pie, but what you might not know is that King Arthur also has a ton of resources to help you refine your baking chops and expand your repertoire. One of my favorites is their new cookbook, “The Big Book of Bread.” If you want to level up your bread baking skills, or even if you're just starting out, this gorgeous book should be your trusty guide. It's full of expert tips, techniques, and recipes from King Arthur's best bakers. It's the perfect time of year to get your bread baking game on, and this book has so many different options. From flatbreads and sourdough loaves to bagels and buns. “The Big Book of Bread” is 100% going to be your go-to, and mine. Order your copy today on kingarthurbaking.com. You can find the link in the show notes.
This episode is presented by Kerrygold. Let's talk for a minute about butter, which is truly one of life's simple pleasures. Beautiful butters like those from Kerrygold are as good as gold to me and all the butter lovers in my life. Kerrygold butter is the most special of them all. It's made with milk from Irish grass-fed cows and has a rich flavor and creamy texture thanks to its naturally higher butterfat percentage. This also gives Kerrygold butter that beautiful, natural, golden yellow color we all know and love. Think about how many simple, delicious moments involve butter. Making grilled cheese for a loved one. I mean, I can hear the butter sizzling in the pan right now, can't you? Slathering butter on an amazing scone or banana bread that you spent your Saturday morning baking, even just passing butter around a lively table when you get together with friends and family for a meal. There's a whole world of Kerrygold butters for you to discover and enjoy. Learn more at kerrygoldusa.com.
Peeps, guess who's on the cover of Cherry Bombe's holiday issue? It's the one and only Ina Garten. The issue is beautiful and features a special section dedicated to the Barefoot Contessa with heartfelt essays, some of Ina's favorite things, and more. What else? Holiday gift ideas and hosting tips, as well as recipes from the season's most exciting cookbooks, including some guests from our show, like Paola Velez and Zoë Bakes. All of you Ina fans will love this issue, and the pink cover will look great on your bookshelf or coffee table. To snag a copy, head to cherrybombe.com or click the link in our show notes. Or visit your favorite bookstore or culinary shop to pick up an issue. L
et's chat with today's guest. Kat, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk gluten-free cheesy garlic pull-apart bread with you and so much more.
Katarina Cermelj:
Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
Although you live in England now, you're originally from Slovenia. Can you share an early childhood baking memory from there?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, of course. I was actually surrounded by baking all the time when I was growing up, because my mom is the most amazing baker. One of the dishes that I remember most and love most from Slovenian cuisine is something that we call potica, which is actually like a yeasted sweet bread that we would have around Christmas and also Easter. It's basically an enriched dough that you roll out and then you fill with all sorts of fillings. Some are from ground walnuts. My favorites are with ground poppy seeds or also with cottage cheese and tarragon, which might sound odd, but it's the most amazing thing. If people haven't used tarragon in sweet baking, they're missing out, it's incredible. The flavor you get, it's out of this world.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, cottage cheese, but in a sweet bake?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes. Well, I call it cottage cheese. Cottage cheese is the closest I can get to the Slovenian and that part of Europe equivalent. What we actually use is a slightly drier version of cottage cheese. We've tried to find an approximation here in the U.K., but the closest we've come is if you freeze cottage cheese and then defrost it, you get a more similar texture, it gets more grainy and slightly drier, so that's the closest we've come.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, I love that and I love this amazing tip about tarragon in our baking.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, honestly, it's underused in sweet baking.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, I love that, Kat. Thank you. Already you're dropping science and giving us tips, and we just started. Would you say that is the baked good that reminds you the most of childhood?
Katarina Cermelj:
I think so, but also it's all sorts of things. My mom was also baked on birthday cakes, but in all sorts of shapes and cat shapes or hedgehogs and all sorts of things. When I was younger, my helping in the kitchen was mostly just licking the bowl, trying out frosting, stealing the bits of cookie dough, but I think my love for baking whatever form was always there. But yeah, she baked cookies for Christmas. We always had some baked good around and it was almost always like home baked and just amazing. But I think our styles of baking between my mom and me also are very different. I'm very much about precision, weighing everything to the decimal place, noting down everything, and she's kind of baker that can somehow just eyeball everything and go by feeling and get the most amazing results, which I admire so much. But it's also frustrating, because that means that when she makes something amazing, it's very difficult to make it again, you just have to guess ingredients and quantities.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also loved learning this about you. I read what an incredible baker your mom is and now you're telling me about it right now. But I also love that it was your dad's love of science. It was sort of both the baking from your mom and the science from your dad that brought you to where you are today, approaching your baking in a pretty scientific way. And I thought that was so interesting. Can you describe how he contributed to your love of science?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, so I was quite a curious child, sometimes probably to an annoying extent, in that I would always ask why, and it's just typical childhood questions about, "Oh, do people in Australia hang upside down, and why don't they follow off the earth?" And then we would discuss astronomy and it's all sorts of things that I was just very curious and both my parents in different ways will encourage that curiosity, which I think is very important. And then that just carried me on through life to a science degree and then to baking. Yeah, I just love that now I'm basically able to do both at once. I think it's my ideal career.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted to talk about your blog. You were already, I think, a very passionate baker when you ended up having to eliminate gluten from your diet in 2015 due to a host of health issues. But I assume you were baking before that, but suddenly couldn't bake what you were used to because there weren't a ton of options.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yeah, exactly. I always enjoyed baking as I was growing up, I started helping my mom out and then I was making my own things. As you say, in 2015 I started having health issues and as part of the journey of trying to figure out what was wrong, I eliminated both gluten and dairy for a while. And that was quite an overwhelming experience, because you rely on regular flour, on regular butter and all those things to get the results you are used to and expect from your bakes. That was a very strange experience to not be able to do that anymore. And I guess because nowadays we have a wealth of information and amazing recipes out there for gluten-free baking, for dairy-free baking. I know it wasn't that long ago, but there wasn't that much choice back then.
And I wasn't happy with the recipes I was finding online and in other cookbooks, and I also just didn't understand why, for example, if I were just to use gluten-free flour instead of regular flour in one of my existing recipes, why wouldn't turn out quite right? It took a lot of experimenting and getting to know the ingredients and understanding what the properties of the ingredients and how they interact with each other to be able to start making gluten-free and dairy-free bakes that they were as good as the regular stuff that I remembered. It was quite the journey with many, many fails. Cookies that were like rocks and cakes would crumble everywhere, but eventually I got there.
Jessie Sheehan:
The blog is called The Loopy Whisk. Tell us about the blog and tell us what free from baking is?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, so The Loopy Whisk is my blog where I share primarily baking recipes and mostly gluten-free, but I also have sections devoted to dairy-free, egg-free, vegan and gluten-free vegan. I try to envelop all the variance dietary requirements, but my primary focus has always been gluten-free. I use the term free from, which I know might not be very familiar to your U.S. audience, but it's very familiar to the UK. Free from is essentially a term that encompasses all the various dietary requirements. It's basically a single term that you can use to encompass gluten-free, dairy-free, egg-free, vegan, et cetera. Which is very handy because I believe that in the U.S. you don't have an equivalent. Which was very annoying when I was trying to figure out the title for my book. Because initially the book was supposed to be called the Free From Baking Book, but then we realized that if we gave you the title, the U.S. might be very confused. Hence, we ended up eventually with “The Elements of Baking.” But yes, free from is I find to be a very useful term to encompass all the various allergy friendly baking requirements.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so funny, because of being in the U.S., I thought you invented it. I was like, "What a great term, free from, why don't we use it?" So that's hilarious.
Katarina Cermelj:
I wish, whoever came up with that is brilliant.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best kind of prunes out there. I am a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. You probably already know that prunes are good for your gut. You might even know that prunes are also good for your bone health, but what you really need to know is that prunes are absolutely delicious in both sweet and savory dishes. But don't just take it from me. Here's what some of the country's top culinary experts have to say. Chef Bronwen Wyatt of Bayou Saint Cake says, "Prunes have an earthy, whiny richness that pairs beautifully with the tart fresh flavor of berries." Chef Kat Turner from Highly Likely in L.A. says, "They are an incredibly versatile ingredient that strike a great balance between sweet and savory. They're incredibly sensual." Ana Castro from Acamaya in New Orleans says. "Prunes have a sultriness to them. They're very rich and like velvet. I like to use prune puree in my baked goods to give them great flavor and also to replace some of the sugar, eggs or fat in the recipe. It's super easy to whip up, just blend prunes and water together, and voila." For recipe ideas and more, be sure to check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
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Peeps, have you heard about Cherry Bombe Jubilee? It's our annual conference for women in food, drink, and hospitality, and it's happening Saturday, April 12th in New York City. I always love being a Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry chefs and cookbook authors. If you'd like to join us, you can snag early bird tickets at cherrybombe.com. They're on sale now until December 31st, so don't delay. And if you're an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing. I hope to see you there. Now, back to our guest.
Your goal for the blog is to share these reliable, foolproof, delicious free from recipes, but also it's really important to you to share why.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, absolutely. I think that in general, not just with free from baking, but baking in general and also cooking, it's very important that people understand why certain ingredients are using a recipe or why certain methods, techniques, steps, steps are there. Because it's very common that you might not have an ingredient on hand, or you want to swap something, be it for personal preferences or because you have a dietary requirement. And if you don't understand why an ingredient or a step or a method is there, you don't know whether or not you can tweak it and change it. Whereas if you understand the why, so if you know for example why a cooking recipe is light brown sugar to the white sugar, then you know, "Okay, yes, I can swap that. or no, that's absolutely crucial to the success of a recipe." That's part of the reason why I really love to include science, but also I just find it very fascinating. I am a nerdy person and I just enjoy sharing that passion for the food science with my readers as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also wondered about your photography, and then we're going to talk a little bit about social media too, and your video making. I'm just amazed that you're this brilliant free from recipe developer, baker, cookbook writer, and also make beautiful content. Was that always a hobby? Did you always make videos? How did that all come to be?
Katarina Cermelj:
Well, first of all, thank you. That's very kind. I wasn't a photographer or videographer at all, so I was quite lucky because my dad is a graphic designer and also dabbles in photography. We had the base equipment that got me started. I had my dad there to ask any questions about shutter speed and all those technical things that I didn't really know about. And then over time I kind of developed my own style and really start to understand what works when doesn't work for me in terms of photography. Because I'm very much a learn as I go person, because I think that learning style works best for me. But the video part was quite challenging for me, because I was very much the person who knows how to set up a photography shoot, not so much how to shoot videos, but with Instagram changing its algorithm to promote Reels and TikTok and everything else, it was very clear to me that if I want to reach people and show them my recipes, I needed to switch to video as well.
That was quite the journey. The initial videos were not good, let's say. They might still be hanging somewhere around on Instagram, but you don't want to see them, they're very awkward. But yeah, for video, it was just a lot of trial and error seeing what videos from other people I really liked and trying, not copy their style directly, but seeing which aspects I like and trying to incorporate them into my own video making process. I know that people may like my videos and they see the finished product, but I'm still very much not 100% happy with how they're looking. I'm very much a kind of perfectionist, nitpicky person. I'm always trying to do better because I can see that it can be done. The recipe development, the baking very much came first for me, and then I'm just using the photography and videos to showcase my recipes to people. But I would very much say that I'm a recipe developer first and then everything else, second, third, fourth.
Jessie Sheehan:
At the time of this recording you have 1.8 million followers on Instagram and 1.1 million on TikTok. Can you tell us a little bit about how did it explode like that? What's the trajectory like? And one thing that I'm always interested in as somebody who does make video, et cetera, a lot of us just make something for Instagram and then put it on TikTok. Do you try to approach the two platforms differently and modify your videos, et cetera, so that they work for Instagram, but then a different version on TikTok?
Katarina Cermelj:
The way it went for me is I just try to give people the best possible content and the recipes I actually like. And just be consistent. And I'm very lucky that apparently people really love my recipes and how they're presented. I don't have any specific social media strategy other than try to give people the best possible recipe and product I can. When I see that a certain style of filming, et cetera works, I try to stick to that. Not in terms of being repetitive, but for instance, I often see food videos that are more lifestyle-esque in terms of that they have a very elaborate setup with the whole table, and it's beautiful and I admire that, but that's very much not me. Because I'm very messy when I bake. I'm usually the person who will have closeups of the bowl or the muffin or whatever because you don't want to see how everything else looks around me, because it's a mess. But yeah, no real social media strategy other than just show up, give people your best, and that's it.
And in terms of the difference between Instagram and TikTok, basically I shoot a lot of video. I have 10 minutes of content, and then in the end it's like a half a minute video, so I can tweak slightly which shots I take for Instagram TikTok. But for the most part, I found that people on both platforms respond well to similar style of video. It's just that different video content might do slightly better on one platform than another. But overall, I don't really do much to change the content for Instagram versus TikTok. I found that it works quite well on both platforms.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was there a moment where a particular video went viral and all of a sudden it was like, "Oh, my God?"
Katarina Cermelj:
There were a couple that really surprised me. I would say the most surprising part was on TikTok where for whatever reason, my lemon recipes really took off. And I was a huge part of Lemon Tok, which is a thing on TikTok. I think it all started with my lemon crinkle cookies and people were just like, "Give us more lemony recipes." And I was like, "Okay." So, I made lemon brownies, lemon curd cookies, lemon rolls, which are like a lemony version of cinnamon rolls. The lemon thing on TikTok really surprised me, but I'm also very glad, because I am obsessed with lemony desserts, so it worked out great, but that one was, it just came out of nowhere.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now I want to talk about “Elements of Baking,” your new incredible cookbook. And I love it that you describe it as an enthusiastically nerdy cookbook. I love that so much being a nerd myself. Please unpack what you mean by that?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, so it all started with my first cookbook, “Bake to Perfection.” That one was all about gluten-free baking. And I knew I wanted to include a bit of science, but I was also a bit hesitant, because I didn't know how people would react, whether it would turn them off, because obviously science isn't for everyone. But I also wanted to make sure that my science is fun and approachable and it won't give people nightmarish flashbacks to high school maths or chemistry. But people responded amazingly well to the science in the first book in terms of just the feedback I got, that was the part that people loved best. With this second book, I was like, "Okay, let my inner nerd run wild, and I'll just put all the fascinating science in there."
I would say that over half of the book is sciency, but in a really useful and hopefully comprehensive and easy to understand way. I go a lot into the science of ingredients and recipe modification. I even include a whole chapter that is all just about modification rules that people can actually use to adapt their own family, favorites or other favorite recipes to eliminate gluten, eggs, dairy, and so on. If you took a window of science, you would have maybe, I don't know, 10 pages left of the book. So, it's very much a nerdy cookbook for people who are interested in it in science, or who maybe wants to dabble and see if it's for them. I don't know, I think with baking, especially free from baking science is so important. It's basically the kind of book that I gravitate towards as well, because I just love reading about the science behind recipes. I love spreadsheets and flow charts and tables and cookbooks. It just makes me happy.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's described as an encyclopedia of adapting recipes to make any recipe gluten-free or dairy free, egg-free vegan or even gluten-free vegan, so free from recipes. I found the book incredibly helpful in terms of the science. You can use all of that science for any kind of baker that you are, which I thought was really important. Because I too am very interested in why things work and why they don't work, and I found all of that understanding the role of an egg or the role of flour really, really helpful. I love this idea that there are several levels on which the reader can interact with the book. We have the just want the recipe reader, want to change your own recipe reader, and then like you and maybe me a little bit, science is literally your everything reader. Can you tell us about those levels?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, absolutely. I basically include this page, it kind of outlines the levels at which people can read and track for the book. Because I know that not everyone is like me and wants to just read about the science and thinks about it all the time. I didn't want this book to be intimidating to people, so I wanted to show them that even if you're not the total science geek, you can still use it and it's still, you can just look at the recipes or at the next level you can look at the rules. So, I think that's very important in such a text and information heavy cookbook, just to show people that, "Okay, don't be overwhelmed. I'm here to take you through everything and just look at these three levels." You know yourself, you know how much into science you are or aren't, and with the levels, I actually give people page numbers or chapter numbers for which part they should focus on, depending on their nerdiness level.
I just hope that this is a gentle introduction to the book to people who are maybe scared of science a bit, and eventually somebody might transition from level one to level two and eventually level three, which would make me very happy. But yeah, I mean, I think when these more complex cookbooks that don't just give you recipes, it might be helpful to people to see how they can actually use the book. I think that's very important.
Jessie Sheehan:
And tell us about the case studies?
Katarina Cermelj:
Okay, so the case studies are probably the most unusual addition to the book, and I know that my editor was very confused when I first explained to her what I want to include in the book, but yet, the case studies are basically a term or just a concept that I stole from high school textbooks, from maths and chemistry and all those things. It's where I take a regular recipe, be it cookie or a cake, and then I take people step by step through all the changes they need to make in order to make it gluten-free and dairy-free, egg-free vegan or ultimately gluten-free vegan. And I explain all the changes and why they're necessary. I also go into slight troubleshooting. For instance, what could go wrong if you do this or that? And the most important lots of photos so that people can actually see side by side comparisons. Because I think that without the photos, this would be all text, which could be very easily overwhelming.
But I also think that sometimes like they say, a photo says 1,000 words, and I especially love the photos where you can see, for example, with chocolate chip cookies, you can see the regular cookies next to gluten-free ones next to all the other versions. And I think that just shows people what's possible, because when you see a regular chocolate chip cookie and a gluten-free vegan chocolate chip cookie and they look similar, people might be, "Okay, I can do that and I can have gluten-free vegan chocolate chip cookies that look and taste just as good as the regular ones." That was my whole aim with the book. To show people that without too much fuss or stress or complications, you can make any free from version that's just as good as the regular one.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Now we're going to talk about your gluten-free cheesy garlic pull apart bread. I think it's fair to say, even though I know as recipe developers and cookbook writers, we hate to say a favorite recipe, I do think this might be your favorite savory recipe in the book. Is that true?
Katarina Cermelj:
Absolutely, 100%. I love it. It's so good. I tend to repeat this sentence over and over again in the book and on my blog, but genuinely, even non-gluten-free folks will love it, even though it's gluten-free. It's just amazing. It's soft and fluffy and cheesy and garlicky and herby and just the best.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you say that the first time you made it, I think you nearly finished off an entire loaf?
Katarina Cermelj:
It's addictive and dangerous in the best possible way, but it is dangerous.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, the texture is, it's soft and squishy. You have these stunning stretchy cheese pulls as you tear off individual pieces. Everything about it sounds amazing. And you use a combination of two different cheeses in the loaf that we'll get into, and you have a reason for each, which I love. And then you have your garlic and your herbs. I know that there's a little bit of leakage after we bake the loaf. Tell us a little bit about the leakage. I can recognize in you as a fellow recipe developer the need to tell people so they don't freak out and so that you can also tell them, "No, no, no, this is a good thing."
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, so because you fill the bread, as we'll discuss, with garlic butter and then cheese, some of that butter cheese does leak out as the bread is baking, but what happens is, all those bits caramelized and get crispy around the edges on the bottom. Some might consider an extent or a negative aspect of a recipe actually turn out into its biggest advantage. Because those are the best parts. Even when I was full after finishing off half a loaf, I was still picking all those little bits, because they have such a concentrated flavor of all the best parts. Oh, I honestly don't have the words for how good it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to prepare this dough. We can use either a stand mixer fitted with our dough hook, or we can do it by hand, though a mixer makes it much easier and results in a smoother dough. In a small bowl we're going to mix together some whole psyllium husk, which you say is better than powder. And psyllium husk binds with water and forms a gel, and we're going to add some lukewarm water and a gel will form in about 30 to 45 seconds. Can you tell us a teeny bit more about psyllium husk? I'm probably not giving enough of an explanation. You said psyllium husk is what you want to use if you're making bread, although this recipe calls for both, Xanthan Gum is what you might use if you were making cake, let's say.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, absolutely. I like to call psyllium husk the magical ingredient when you make gluten-free bread, because before I start using it my gluten-free bread was horrendous. So that's the main ingredient that transformed my gluten-free bread from a disaster to what I'm doing now. The basic idea behind psyllium husk, it's that it's a binder, so a gluten substitute. It mimics the effect that gluten has in a regular bread dough. So, it gives just enough elasticity and flexibility so that you can shape it, so you can actually handle it and roll it out in the case of this recipe. And then it also gives the dough the elasticity that it needs to proof and expand both during proofing and then during baking. And it also gives gluten-free bread that slightly chewy texture that you'd expect from bread. I can't really imagine any of my gluten-free bread recipes without psyllium husk. It's an amazing ingredient.
Jessie Sheehan:
In a large bowl, if we're doing it by hand, or in our stand mixer bowl, we're going to whisk together tapioca starch, millet flour, sorghum flour. Then we're going to add a little bit of sugar and some instant yeast. And I love that you use instant, because I'm an instant yeast person too. Why do you like it more? Since you're like my expert scientist person? Why do you like it more than active dry?
Katarina Cermelj:
Honestly, it's just one extra step I don't have to make. I mean, listen, yes, I'm very precise, but I'm also a very impatient baker. If there is an extra step that I can skip and I still know I'll get the result, that's just as good, I will skip, because yeah, we all are in a rush. We don't have all the time in the world. I used to use active dry yeast, but then I tried instant yeast once and I was a convert.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. This recipe also calls for a little bit of baking powder, which I thought was really interesting. Why do we need baking powder if we're using yeast, if this is a yeasted dough?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yeah, so I know that in a regular bread recipe that uses wheat flour, you'd never see baking powder, unless may be in a very unusual one. But with gluten-free bread, you basically need to use any trick you have up your sleeve to get the same texture as you would with regular bread. And the baking powder basically just gives the yeast a helping hand and helps to make the bread as fluffy as it should be. Because the lack of gluten really makes a difference when you're making bread. You can get away with it when you're making cakes, cookies, et cetera. But with bread you really feel it. So especially with enriched bread that uses eggs and butter and stuff like that, you need that little extra boost that the baking powder gives, so it really does make a difference.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to add some Xanthan Gum. And just so I understand, Xanthan Gum acts like gluten and I know we need it and the psyllium husk, because psyllium husk you really need for gluten-free bread, correct?
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes. Basically, psyllium husk, well, you will always eat in gluten-free bread, but when it comes to enriched, so brioche-like doughs, I like to use the mix of psyllium husk and Xanthan Gum. And that's because psyllium husk on its own will give you a very chewy texture, which is great for things like baguettes, artisan loaves, ciabatta and things like that. Whereas with brioche where you want a slightly more refined delicate crumb, I found that a mixture of psyllium husk and Xanthan Gum will give you a better result.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And then we're also going to add some fine sea salt. We're going to have mixed up our dry ingredients. We're going to make a well in the middle of the dry ingredients. We're going to add our psyllium gel, some warm whole milk, a room temperature large egg, and some melted unsalted butter. We're going to mix our dough, this is before we turn on our mixer, mix our dough. Are we just using a spatula at this point? What tool would you use at this first stage of mixing in the psyllium gel before we begin kneading?
Katarina Cermelj:
Oh, you can use a spatula, but you could also just turn on your mixer and just go ahead.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, start going.
Katarina Cermelj:
But I like to make a distinction between mixing the dough until all the ingredients are evenly incorporated and that it's smooth, and then extra kneading time until it's even smoother. Because if you stopped your mixing after all the ingredients are incorporated to your naked eye, your resulting gluten-free brioche dough would be quite lumpy and uneven. And I specified that you should mix, for instance, with the stand mixer for four to five extra minutes. And that really makes a difference. Maybe not so much in this recipe, because you'll be rolling it out and cutting it into quite thin-ish squares. For instance, if you're making burger buns or stuff like that where you want to have a smooth surface, then that extra kneading time is even more essential.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to mix maybe just with the dough on a low speed, let's say until everything's combined. Then we're going to knead for four to five minutes if using a stand mixer, six to eight if we're kneading by hand. On the stand mixer, what speed would you say when kneading, do we want medium high?
Katarina Cermelj:
No, I usually use the lowest order one up. So similar as with regular bread, go slow. I think that's the standard with bread, and that's what I also do with gluten-free bread.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, amazing. So you do maybe very, very low when you're just mixing the dough, and then maybe turn it up a tiny bit for the "kneading process."
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So interesting. We're going to be using a rubber spatula to occasionally scrape down the bottom and the inside of the bowl to prevent dry patches of unmixed flour. The final dough after these four to five minutes will be slightly sticky to the touch. Don't want us to add any more flour, like in most recipes you don't want to add more flour, and you give us this great tip, which is to chill it in the refrigerator if it's just too sticky to work with.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes. So I know it can be, especially with a gluten-free bread dough, if people aren't used to it, it can seem overwhelmingly sticky. And I completely understand that people have a tendency to just want to add more flour until it feels more manageable. But that would result in this bread, and bread in general, like gluten-free bread in general being very dry and dense. I always explicitly caution people against adding more flour, because I understand it's an ingrained part in us, it just wants to add more flour, I don't know what it is. But at this point, very much used to dealing with extremely sticky doughs. So, I can just go straight ahead. I would just immediately shape it into a bowl on the floured surface and just start all the next steps.
But if people aren't used to it, the chilling step really helps. And that's for two reasons, partially because the dough contains some butter. The butter will obviously firm up and that will make the dough more manageable. But what also happens is as you're chilling the dough, the gluten-free flours inside have more time to properly hydrate, and that will absorb some of the no excess moisture that's making the dough so sticky. Both of those factors will contribute to then the dough being easier to manage and then roll out and then go on with the recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to make the filling. In a small bowl we're going to mix together softened salted butter. We're going to mix together garlic powder, and I loved garlic powder. I love this addition. Why are we using garlic powder instead of minced garlic?
Katarina Cermelj:
I in general don't like using minced fresh garlic in my baking, but that's a personal preference, because I find it very intense. So in this recipe I use garlic powder, because it gives you all the garlicness without the astringency in a way. But I also wanted to give people in this book two different options of how to incorporate garlicky flavor. Because in the gluten-free vegan chapter, I make these pesto bread rolls, and there I use garlic from garlic confit. So basically I didn't want to repeat myself because I'm obsessed with garlic confit, like I would add it to everything. But yes, here, so just to show people different options, and also because it's very quick and convenient, that's why I'm using garlic powder.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And then we're also going to add some finely chopped fresh herbs like parsley, rosemary, and oregano. And the pepper, is that black pepper?
Katarina Cermelj:
You can use just black pepper. But I also love just freshly brown multicolored colorful pepper as well. So whatever you prefer really.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Okay, now we're at the assembly and proofing. We're going to lightly butter a nine by five inch loaf tin. You say that we can line it with parchment, but it's not essential. Is there a downside to lining with parchment?
Katarina Cermelj:
In my experience, the crispy caramelized bits that we discussed at the beginning will form more effectively if you don't line it. But for instance, I'm very confident in the quality of my baking pans. I love, by the way, I love the U.S. pan brand. I love it. It's so reliable. There are some very good brands in the UK as well, but I just found that I like the shape also, because in the UK oftentimes we have the rounded corners, which I don't know what it is, but I just love those sharp neat corners on a loaf pan or pans in general. Okay, anyway, yes. So, if you are very confident in the quality of your loaf pan and it won't stick, I wouldn't line it, because you will get better caramelization that way. But if you know that your loaf pan tends to stick, you can definitely line it with baking paper as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have to say I'm obsessed with sharp corners. I feel exactly the same way you do. I see a pan with those rounded corners and I just can't stand it. I like the corners to be sharp and I like sides to be straight. I also don't love when the sides are kind of slanted in some way.
Katarina Cermelj:
They drive me crazy with round cake pans.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Katarina Cermelj:
Why would you want a round cake pan with slanted? What was the logic behind it? Because just about trying to assemble a layer cake with slanted. No, it's no, just I don't understand the design decision.
Jessie Sheehan:
I couldn't agree with you more. On a lightly floured work surface, we're going to roll out our dough. Do you have a preferred shape of a rolling pin? Do you like tapered ends or do you like handles?
Katarina Cermelj:
I like handles, but not the self-rolling ones, if you know what I mean? The ones that roll independently, those drive me crazy. I don't know why. Similar pet peeve to neat edges, I just usually use a simple wooden one, but with handles.
Jessie Sheehan:
So on a lightly floured work surface, we'll roll out our dough into a 12-inch square, we'll spread the garlic butter filling in an even layer over the rolled out dough all the way to the edges. And then we'll evenly scatter grated cheddar and mozzarella over the garlic butter and press down gently to adhere. Tell us why you want us to have cheddar and mozzarella.
Katarina Cermelj:
They bring very different aspects of textures and flavors to this recipe. With cheddar you get the saltiness, the intense flavor, and with mozzarella you get that creaminess and also that cheese pull as you tear away in the individual pieces. Because I think part of the experience of making a cheesy pull-apart bread is also that you get the decadent cheese pull. I wanted to have the best of both worlds, the intense salty flavor and the creamy stretchiness. And that's what you get with this blend of the two.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, using a pizza cutter or a sharp knife. And is the knife like a paring knife or a chef's knife?
Katarina Cermelj:
I would use a chef's knife, something with quite a large blade surface area so you don't have to cut for 10 years.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. We're going to divide the dough into 16 equal three-inch squares. In your kitchen, are you using a ruler? Are you using, I have this tiny little small measuring tape. What do you use as your tool for measuring?
Katarina Cermelj:
I actually use a metal, I think it's a 12-inch ruler. Because I'm atrocious at eyeballing anything. I'm not sure if you can see on the photo in the book. I tried to eyeball the step. When I was taking the step-by-step photos, I eyeballed the measurements. And you can see how uneven it is and it's bugging me looking at the photo. But yeah, I'm horrendous at judging distances and anything, so I'm very much, "No, use a ruler if you can, it'll give you a much nicer result."
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to stack eight of our squares cheese side up on top of each other and then carefully place them into our prepared loaf tin. And we want a cheese-free square, so the side of one squares that doesn't have cheese on it, we want that one facing or touching the end of the tin. And we're stacking them, I've made these pull-apart breads before, we're stacking like dominoes.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, that's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to repeat with our additional eight squares, but this time we're going to make sure that that top square faces cheese side down again so that when it hits the end, the other end of the tin, we don't have a cheesy side hitting the tin.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yes, that's right. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. So both ends have just dough, no cheese. When we carefully place that second stack into the loaf tin, we might need to a little bit to make them all fit. We're going to lightly cover the loaf tin with cling film, as you call it, or plastic wrap as we call it. And we're going to leave the dough to proof in a warm place for about an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half until doubled in size. Is this unusual that this dough only needs to rise once? I feel like often a pull-apart dough, you might rise it for maybe half an hour, let's say, or 45 minutes before you shape it, and then again?
Katarina Cermelj:
I would say that this isn't so much about this specific pull apart bread, it's more a thing in general about gluten-free bread. So initially, because I was following the logic of regular bread, I used to proof it twice, but it turns out that for gluten-free bread you can only just proof it once and you'll get the perfect result. I skipped the bulk proofing stage with pretty much I think all my gluten-free bread recipes in this book. I had some in the first book, but honestly you can just perfect once and it'll be perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
While the dough proofs, we're going to adjust our oven rack to the middle position and we're going to preheat our oven to 350. Once the bread is doubled, we'll place it onto a baking sheet to catch any of those delicious drips. We'll place it in the oven and we'll bake for about 45 minutes or until it's evenly golden brown and a toothpick inserted in comes out completely clean with no sticky raw dough. Do you ever use internal thermometers to determine when your bread is done? And if so, what temperature would you want it to be?
Katarina Cermelj:
I don't with gluten-free bread, simply because I found that it's not the most reliable way of telling when a gluten-free bread is done. With this bread, you basically just want to make sure that all the dough is fully baked through, so that's why I'm using the toothpick. But as a tangent, with gluten-free breads like artisan loaves and baguettes, I actually weigh my loaves, which I think is slightly unusual, because those types of bakes, you want to make sure that enough moisture has evaporated from your bread. Otherwise, it could be like sticky and gummy inside, which is a common problem with gluten-free bread if they don't lose enough moisture. And in those cases just weighing your bread is the easiest way to figure out if they've lost enough moisture and if you can take them out of the oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. So, you weigh it before it goes in the oven and then you weigh it when it comes out of the oven. Is that correct?
Katarina Cermelj:
I basically just add up all the ingredient weights, so to know how much it weighs, and then yes, you weigh it when it comes out of the oven without the pan, obviously, or if it's free from just put the whole loaf onto a scale. But yes, so whenever relevant, so it's not relevant here, but where it's relevant, I always provide the expected weight, how much it should weigh after baking, and also the percentage weight loss. So usually for artisan loaves, baguettes would expect between 12 to 20% weight loss to get the best result.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm literally in love with you. I've never even heard of that. I love that so much. This is a great tip. If the top of the bread starts browning too quickly, we're going to cover with a sheet of foil, and you remind us that the shiny side goes up. Why with tinfoil should the shiny side be up and the dull side be touching the baked good?
Katarina Cermelj:
You basically just want to reflect as much of the radiative heat from the oven as possible, and that's the most effective if you have the shiny side facing outwards.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to remove the baked bread from the loaf tin straight away. And is that because the cheese turns to glue and we want to get it out quickly or the bread might stick?
Katarina Cermelj:
Not really. It, again, back to the fact that you want to release the moisture from the bread. If you kept it inside, you would get condensation. The moisture couldn't get out from within the pan. So, if you take it out immediately, you can actually, if you hold your head next to the hot bread, you can feel the steam escaping, and you definitely want that if you want to have that light, fluffy, nice texture of your bread.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so great. Is that a tip for all bread making that really, any bread you make, you need it to come out of its pan. Or let's say you're making a no-knead loaf, like in a Crusoe or a big pot, a Dutch oven. We want to take all of our bread out right away to let that moisture release.
Katarina Cermelj:
So in general, even if you're making regular bread, I would always take it out of the pan straight away, unless you're making something where leaving it in the pan has a certain reason. I know that for an example, some people when they make, let's say brioche burger buns, they wrap even hot ones in either plastic bag or they clean the shell to trap the steam to make them extra soft. There are certain cases where there's a certain logic to keeping it in the pan or to wrapping it. But in general, if you want to have a light, fluffy crumb, I would take it out of the pan immediately.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have this option, which I am encouraging every single person listening to absolutely do, which is we can brush a little bit of melted butter immediately when the bread comes out of the oven, or maybe after we pop it out of the pan, and sprinkle it with flaky sea salt. I love that.
Katarina Cermelj:
Yeah, I mean, extra butter is, I think, always a good idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, I cannot agree with you more. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Kat, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Katarina Cermelj:
Well, thank you. I've had such a great time. Thank you so much for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to King Arthur Baking Company, Kerrygold, California Prunes, and Ghirardelli for supporting this episode. Don't forget to follow She's my Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's my Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.