Kristen Kish Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Today's guest is Kristen Kish, the “Top Chef” champion and host and author of the brand new best-selling memoir, “Accidentally on Purpose,” which traces her rise from a Midwest kid trying to find her calling to the culinary powerhouse she is today. Speaking of power, this is the first of a special Power miniseries we're doing to coincide with the new power issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine, which is out this week. We spotlighted more than 100 women in the worlds of food, drink, and hospitality who are using their power in interesting, inspiring, and innovative ways. Kristen is one of those people. In addition to her “Top Chef” duties, she's the chef of the Arlo Grey Restaurant at the Line Hotel in Austin, Texas. She's the definition of a modern chef and uses her power today to mentor, to support her queer community, and of course, to make beautiful food. As she says during our interview, she's all about soft power and using her influence, experience, and hard-earned knowledge for good. Stay tuned for my interview with Kristen Kish.
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Now, let's check in with today's guest. Kristen Kish, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Kristen Kish:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so excited.
Kristen Kish:
Me too.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so happy to see you. We really did miss you at Jubilee.
Kristen Kish:
I know. I was sad not to be there because also I was going to get paired with Eden, who I adore. She's a phenomenal person.
Kerry Diamond:
Eden Grinshpan, who was the host of “Top Chef Canada,” and she likes to call your show “Top Chef America” and we have this whole thing cooked up that you two, we were going to do this big U.S. versus Canada thing and have Eden actually run down one of the aisles with a Canadian flag, but it didn't work out. I know it would've been funny.
Kristen Kish:
Can we rain check that maybe until next year or something?
Kerry Diamond:
We can. We can. And she's such a ham. She said you two have similar senses of humor.
Kristen Kish:
We do. I mean, we're surrounded by a lot of people that don't take themselves so seriously, which I much prefer, but we have this immature playfulness perhaps. I don't know what it is. Perhaps I think maybe a person looking onto us would say that we are immature, so maybe that's it.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know why I always thought of you more like the straight man.
Kristen Kish:
Me?
Kerry Diamond:
Yes.
Kristen Kish:
Kerry. Kerry, come to set one time. I cannot take myself seriously because it is too much. On podcasts, interviews, I will be my most professional self. If you were with me the course of 24 hours now, it's-
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like Eden's always yucking it up on Instagram.
Kristen Kish:
Eden is always yucking it up. Also, she has a husband that likes to do that. My wife does not. I can't play on her level with the whole spouse thing, but she's so entertaining and I love her and we actually then can have these really great heart-to-heart conversations in the midst of this chaotic humor that we're living together.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I love learning that your friends. Speaking of “Top Chef,” “Top Chef” season 22 is really heating up. Folks didn't love the latest elimination.
Kristen Kish:
They didn't. They didn't, but as I always have to say, did you taste the food? So I mean, I understand. I get it. That's why I cried through the whole thing and try and spoiler alert, Massimo gets eliminated, but that's why I cried because it was so heart-wrenching to let him go because that entire day I've set since the beginning of the season started, I said, that is my favorite day. Just period, whether it was because of the episode or it was the environment, it was the company. There was that time when we were sitting in that beautiful backdrop. The food was outstanding, but there was a moment that I forgot that the cameras were there. They just melted away into the background and it just felt like the greatest dinner party ever and it was hard. It was hard to let him go because he is a character, but one that I find really endearing in a lot of ways too.
Kerry Diamond:
But folks should remember that even if you don't win “Top Chef,” it's what you make of your time on “Top Chef.”
Kristen Kish:
Correct. You could be the first one eliminated, but if you create this marker, you just need something that the viewer can connect to, a storyline of personal trait, something, and you will find your people that want to celebrate you all through the way.
Kerry Diamond:
Because Carla Hall didn't win.
Kristen Kish:
Correct.
Kerry Diamond:
But Carla's one of the most famous alums, if not after you-
Kristen Kish:
Agreed.
Kerry Diamond:
... a few other folks, the most famous.
Kristen Kish:
I agree. 100%. You don't have to win the show to be successful.
Kerry Diamond:
Can just pretend she won. Everyone probably thinks she won. Okay. This is your second season as host. How are things different this season for you? What did you learn doing season 21 that you are not doing on season 22?
Kristen Kish:
Well, I've calmed my punctuation of a certain word.
Kerry Diamond:
What word?
Kristen Kish:
Fuck. I used it as an exclamation mark on things because sometimes that is the word that really drives home. This is a really great dish or this is a really great fucking dish. Now it feels different, but I understand that it wasn't charming.
Kerry Diamond:
Did your producers tell you to chill on the F word?
Kristen Kish:
My mother.
Kerry Diamond:
Worse.
Kristen Kish:
Bravo was like, let it fly. My mom was like, you need to dial that back, and I was like, you're right. I needed to come up with other words to use. I mean, it's the difference between the first year on a job and the second year on the job. I think season 21, I was definitely putting a lot of pressure on myself to live up to an expectation that Padma left. Meanwhile, what I needed to realize and I learned in season 21 that my job is not to be her. My job is to fill this role that she also once had and I can do it differently. My only job that I have to do is to be myself, and so going into season 22, that is certainly more apparent and I feel it.
Kerry Diamond:
You have done a lot of television over the years. People might not realize how much you did between winning and hosting. Did those other shows prepare you to host “Top Chef” or can nothing prepare you for hosting “Top Chef” except hosting “Top Chef?”
Kristen Kish:
Yes, but I will say I think the thing that prepared me most for hosting “Top Chef” was just my time in the industry. Being able to talk to cooks, being able to present opinion, being able to give constructive criticism, television, hosting other television shows can't prepare you for the experience that I just had for over two decades of this industry. It's how you speak to a chef. It's how you lead a cook. It's how you operate in a restaurant to get the best out of someone or to give them a compliment or in a lot of ways what we do on “Top Chef” is this mentorship that is giving constructive feedback so then you can come back the next day and do it better. The industry prepared me most for it.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of the chefs, how is it different for the contestants today than it was for you on season 10?
Kristen Kish:
I think everyone's experience is very different. So there isn't this universal thing, if a cook or somebody said, "What can you tell me about “Top Chef?" I mean, I can tell you the basic things. You got to get used to living a sequestered life or understanding that your friends, your family, your support group are not available to you. That a recipe that you might want to use, you need to memorize, and the second you get there you need to write it down. There are those little things to keep the competition fair, but everyone goes into it very, very differently.
Kerry Diamond:
Are there any other things that are different though? Is the show different? It's hard to tell because you don't watch them back to back, but is the show going for different things than it was back when you were on it?
Kristen Kish:
I don't know if it's going for different things. I think it's just mirroring what's happening also in the industry, the evolution of the industry, the evolution of the workplace, the evolution of reflecting what's happening out into the world. I think that's how it's changing. I don't think “Top Chef” and the producers and creators are getting together being like, this is how we're going to really change it. They're taking cues from what's happening into the real world.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. Can you give a few examples?
Kristen Kish:
I mean, it's unspoken judging criteria, but understanding that French technique is not the marker of A++. There are different techniques that so many different people use for so many different reasons and that if we just keep measuring it up against this thing that we thought was perfect for a while or the standard, we're going to keep missing the mark and you're going to let a lot of good people go. I think that there's a quality of chef that's happening that is able to really dig deep into not just creating good food but giving us who they are. I think for me, when I was on “Top Chef,” I made a series of great dishes. I don't know how personal I was getting, and I feel like now the chefs are going more personal, which I very much appreciate.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. This episode of Radio Cherry Bombe is also brought to you by S.Pellegrino. At Cherry Bombe, we believe a great meal is never just about the food. It's about the people, the conversation, the little rituals that make it feel special. A meal isn't just about what's on your plate, it's about what you bring to the table. S.Pellegrino believes that too. They want you to slow down, connect and savor the moments that sparkle. That, after all is where S.Pellegrino shines with their unique sparkling natural mineral water. S.Pellegrino brings something beautiful and effervescent to every gathering, whether it's a big dinner party or just you and your favorite bowl pasta. S.Pellegrino brings its best so you can bring yours. Visit sanpellegrino.com for more.
The new issue of Cherry Bombe magazine drops this week and it's our first ever power issue. We spotlight more than 100 women doing amazing things in the worlds of food, drink, and hospitality, and you have four covers to choose from. Gloria Steinem, Mashama Bailey, Sophia Roe, and Rita Sodi and Jody Williams. You can order a single issue or subscribe at cherrybombe.com or you could pick up a copy at your favorite bookstore or magazine shop, including Vivienne Culinary Books in Portland, Oregon, Mulberry Iconic, McNally Jackson in New York City, and Moon Palace Books in Minneapolis.
Let's talk about the book. We'll come back to “Top Chef” in a little bit because obviously we have spend the whole time talking about “Top Chef,” but we're going to talk about your memoir. I listened to the audiobook this weekend, so I spent the whole weekend with you, Kristen Kish. I thought I knew a lot about you, but apparently I did not. My first takeaway is that your parents are saints.
Kristen Kish:
Yes, they are. I didn't know this in the moment when I was writing it, but people ask, what do you want your legacy to be? There's so many different things and that will evolve and change over time. If there's one thing that I know for sure that I will always want my legacy to be is a representation of my mom and my dad. And if writing this book that lives in perpetuity did that, then I'm incredibly proud and happy to have that out there.
Kerry Diamond:
There's one story, you probably know the one I'm going to reference. You call your dad at 2:00 AM from a bar to have him wire you money because your credit card was declined and you're trying to pay for everyone's drinks.
Kristen Kish:
Correct. There were a lot of moments in this book and I lived with a lot of guilt because they were so amazing and still are. The choices that I made and what I put them through in my early 20s, late 20s, I've been carrying on feeling really bad about it. My mom, when I was writing this book, I referenced a couple of different things and I had to go to therapy for one particular chapter in this book that I was holding on to anger, but the things like the bar tab, my mom and me at our friend's spring break pre-meeting and me being not a nice person, I asked her, I said, "Do you remember these moments? Do you remember? Have you been carrying onto these or holding onto these?" And she goes, "Well, Kristen, you are just figuring life out." And in that moment, 30 years of therapy was just saved because she relieved me of feeling guilty. She was a mom who was concerned about her kid who was certainly struggling with a lot of things and took it out on the people I love the most.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm amazed your father answered the phone. My dad, my father never would've answered the phone at 2:00 in the morning.
Kristen Kish:
Really?
Kerry Diamond:
Yes.
Kristen Kish:
I think they were so worried about me in a lot of different ways that 2:00 AM call, they were probably expecting bad news, bad, bad news, and they were worried. And my dad, my mom has always said, I have my dad wrapped around my little finger. I do. I don't abuse it anymore, but he saved me and he knew not to argue with me in that moment.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. I was blown away. What made you want to write a memoir?
Kristen Kish:
There were a few different things. I think the first thing in complete honesty was that it was presented to me. It wasn't like me saying, I'm ready to do it, and I went out and I tried to find someone, an editor from a publishing company reached out and said, is Kristen interested in writing a memoir? To which I replied, I went back and forth, do I have enough to say? Eventually coming to the place of, yeah, sure, why not? We wrote the proposal, brought it back to her, and she passed. Every major publishing house that you and I could probably name together passed for not enough drama. The lows weren't low enough, the highs weren't high enough. The voice was something that they couldn't find. They didn't know if people would resonate with me. All these different things.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, I had no idea people passed-
Kristen Kish:
Every-
Kerry Diamond:
... every book when it was their idea they passed.
Kristen Kish:
They did. I won't say who it is. I'll tell you offline.
Kerry Diamond:
That's okay. But I would be like, this was your idea.
Kristen Kish:
Correct, correct. And so so many different people passed, and eventually a year plus later we had another meeting with an editor who was like, you know what? I get it. I understand what you're going to do because every time we shopped it out, I said, you know what? I'm not going to name names. This isn't one of these bombshell memoirs where I throw everyone under the bus. I'm going to tell my story through the lens of a lot of learning and happy accidents and things that are now done on purpose, and people couldn't grasp that, which I found really interesting, but that makes the book becoming a New York Times bestseller all the more sweeter, I think.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. I was surprised when I heard you were doing a memoir because we talked earlier about your sense of humor, but you are a very modest, for someone as successful as you are, you are a modest person.
Kristen Kish:
I hope so.
Kerry Diamond:
So I was surprised that you were going to pour it all out in the book.
Kristen Kish:
If you notice all the stories and the details that I gave, they will always come back again somewhere, whether at the end or beginning chapter, end chapter, or just to tie it up. If it didn't serve a purpose, I didn't put it in there. And to that, that gave me confidence to know what I was writing was worth being written, and also that hopefully there are universal truths in that book, and it's not just about how you become a television host or whatever. There are life lessons in there that I feel like are universal that is certainly worth telling, and perhaps maybe I was thinking when I was coming up or growing up or going through some hard things or questioning a lot of different things in my life that maybe if I had read a book like this, it would've made me feel a little bit more normal.
Kerry Diamond:
When I got to the end, when you finished reading the book, my first thought was, oh, this was a self-help book.
Kristen Kish:
Yes, it is. It is. It also helped me with myself.
Kerry Diamond:
How so?
Kristen Kish:
One particular chapter in there, we got done writing it and my writer goes, "Kristen, you really sound angry." And I was like, "I am. I'm carrying on to this thing and giving these people so much power over me still."
Kerry Diamond:
Is this the Menton chapter?
Kristen Kish:
And that chapter going into my first season of “Top Chef” is that I felt so insecure of being in this role because I was carrying some trauma and some messaging to myself that these people made me feel, or I translated and carried on thinking that I didn't have what it takes to become something great, and I realized my jobs outside of that moment were being impacted because I held onto that and then I did a lot of therapy on it afterwards.
Kerry Diamond:
So you're talking about hosting “Top Chef?”
Kristen Kish:
I'm standing there, season 21. All the applicants had to apply prior to Padma's announcement, so I'm standing there and they walk in and obviously they know that I'm hosting now, but they all walk in and all I can think is, are they disappointed to see me? Who am I to be standing here judging them because these cooks that I was supposed to be leading for so long completely disregarded every opinion that I had as their leader, and so I was already feeling that part.
Kerry Diamond:
Even though you had been a chef who was judged on the show.
Kristen Kish:
And had two decades of experience, I clearly was hanging onto how I felt when I was 28 years old in that role.
Kerry Diamond:
You got therapy. Did you go back and rewrite that chapter?
Kristen Kish:
No. No, because it needed to be exactly how it was supposed to be.
Kerry Diamond:
You were working at Barbara Lynch's restaurant group in Boston. It wasn't your first job in her group, but you got a job at her fine dining restaurant, Menton, and that chapter was like a bad episode of “The Bear.”
Kristen Kish:
It was awful.
Kerry Diamond:
Reading it. And you were in charge. It was mostly a male kitchen. No one wanted to listen to you. You even had a guy say, "It would be better if you screamed at me."
Kristen Kish:
Yes, because that's what they were used to. That, on top of a former cook who quit right before I started, started spreading a rumor around the restaurant that the only reason I had the job is because I was in a relationship with Barbara. To feel and have to walk in and look at these people knowing what they already think of you is already tough, and then days off they would change my dishes. It was awful, absolutely awful. The worst job that I ever had. However, I will say that is where I realized why I definitely know that I don't want to be moving forward.
Kerry Diamond:
What helped you get past it ultimately?
Kristen Kish:
There's a lot of things that have to happen. There is forgiving who they are and who they were and understand that everyone has insecurities, myself included. I've behaved in ways when I would felt so sad and unworthy and insecure that people don't behave that way if they're a happy person, and so then I had to understand that I was once that. Maybe mine didn't show up in that kind of way, but I was once that, and you have to understand that people are, they have to go through that, and at the end of the day, I came out of it on top. I have to know that good stuff came out of it, and I also, the chef prior to me, he actually apologized. Years later I saw him at a baby shower and he said, "I'm really sorry because there is no way that anyone could have succeeded in the culture that was set."
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Is that part of why you titled the book “Accidentally on Purpose?”
Kristen Kish:
So the title came after the book was written. We were throwing around all these different ideas and my writer called it out. She goes, "Kristen, there's so many things." And because we're connecting everything together, she goes, "A lot of the things that now you say that give you purpose were started on accident." And so then that's how it started and she was like, accidentally on purpose. I said, "That actually sounds like a great title."
Kerry Diamond:
You do have to get through the whole book to understand though why that title.
Kristen Kish:
Correct.
Kerry Diamond:
So much of the book is about identity. In addition to listening to the book, I listened to you on the Second Life with Hillary Kerr, such a great podcast, and you said that people saw things in you that you didn't see in yourself. That's so interesting because it means trusting in other people's vision of yourself, whether it's your mother telling you to go to culinary school or The New York Times, just deciding you'd be perfect for their TV show and calling your agent. Was this because you had no trust in your own vision, or did you not even have a vision?
Kristen Kish:
Both. I had set my life up when I was really young to say, all these things are going to mark my success, so this age I'm going to do this, this, this, and this, and every single time that next year would roll around, I missed the mark. I just missed it consistently, year after year after year, which after so many years of that happening, you really start to question your ability to do something great. It was that paired with, I couldn't even see what my future could look like. Because I was also very closeted, so the fact that I was living this life that had a very, very, very deep lie in it. Also, I couldn't trust it because then I couldn't even be honest with myself, so I was just proving to myself over and over and over again that I was not worthy. I needed to trust other people, and it wasn't hard because I had that little trust in myself.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a vision for yourself today?
Kristen Kish:
When someone asks, well, what's next? That question always gives me a little bit of what I'm doing isn't already good enough. What's next? I don't know. That question triggers me a little bit. I'm like, you know what? I've stopped relying on assuming or seeing my future. All I know is what's happening right now. I responsibly take care of my things and plan for the future, of course, but when I was planning everything out and looking five years down the road, I was missing all the things that actually brought joy and brilliance to my life, so I don't do that anymore. I know how I want to feel and I feed myself things that make me feel how I want to feel.
Kerry Diamond:
That's an interesting reminder for myself and all the journalists out there to not just throw that question out there. It doesn't mean anything.
Kristen Kish:
I mean, I think some people really thrive in having that goal, but I don't know. What's next? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm ready for it all.
Kerry Diamond:
We always talk in the show about trusting your gut, so I'm curious, do you trust your gut today?
Kristen Kish:
Now, I do. I am very decisive, a skill that I've honed over four decades. I know what I want. I just know it, and if I linger on it too long, I'm going to start convincing myself otherwise, and sometimes I make the wrong choice because I've made it so quickly, but I know that very first feeling, that first instinct, is usually the right one. Every now and again, I'll have to go back and revisit a week later and realize that maybe I could have done that differently. I'm very, very clear.
Kerry Diamond:
You do seem to surround yourself with people you trust.
Kristen Kish:
My circle is very, very, very small.
Kerry Diamond:
Because a lot of the people, I mean we've known you for so long now, I mean, I'm grateful for our friendship, but I deal with a lot of the same people today that I was dealing with like a decade ago.
Kristen Kish:
Correct, because life changed so quickly. I was a chef working in the restaurant. No one knew my name. I wasn't even written in the local paper about coming to a dinner that I was cooking, and then “Top Chef” happened, and then there is when I realized, okay, you set your people now and they're going to carry you all the way through, and I trust that intention. It's flexible. Maybe it's a tough screen, but I have a boundary, very, very clear wall of where I place people, and that is because people's behavior and experiences or just a feeling you get, you learn who's got your back forever and who doesn't.
Kerry Diamond:
There were a few big unlocks for you in this book, the first big unlock in terms of finally feeling like you were in the right place at the right time, the first one seemed to be culinary school. All the pieces came together for you. Tell us how you wound up in culinary school, but then why culinary school was the right fit for you when regular undergrad wasn't?
Kristen Kish:
I had started going to school for international business and economics. It is not what I wanted to do. It's that that's what you do after high school. You're going to go to a four-year college and get a business degree and get married and have kids, and that's it. Nothing wrong with that, just wasn't for me. My very first year, I was feeling the uncertainty, and so I started commuting from home. I realized that I was spending more time at my parents' house than I was at school, and over time my mom realized it. My parents are incredibly, incredibly observant. My mom was like, "Well, clearly you aren't happy. Let's try something different." I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't know culinary school and cooking could be a thing, but I think my mom knew that I needed to get outside of Michigan, my hometown, and she needed me to explore something bigger, and so Chicago was right there.
Kerry Diamond:
Your mom knew you needed to get out of her house?
Kristen Kish:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Basically.
Kristen Kish:
Yes, and my mom and my dad drove me that summer. I finished my first year barely. They put me in the car. We drove to Chicago two and a half hours. We met with the administration person, went all over the financial part.
Kerry Diamond:
You went to Le Cordon Bleu?
Kristen Kish:
I did.
Kerry Diamond:
In Chicago.
Kristen Kish:
The school's no longer there. They quit after me.
Kerry Diamond:
The U.S. ones are no longer-
Kristen Kish:
There was something about it that I didn't know if it's what I wanted to do, but I sure as hell knew that I know I didn't want to do what I was doing, so this was the only option because it was the only option, and so that next fall I started going to culinary school and it was a place where I started to feel like life didn't have to feel so hard. It was hard for a lot of different things. My university was hard because I didn't actually have the brain to understand what they were teaching me in the way that they were teaching me, and so culinary school, I started to find confidence outside of those walls. I still didn't know how to live life, but while I was in school, I actually didn't have to think so hard, which was a relief. There aren't even enough words to explain how I felt inside, the weight, the pressure, the depression, the anxiety. I could not live my life like that. Thankfully, my mom stepped in and a lot of things happened over many, many years that got me out of that.
Kerry Diamond:
It's such a good reminder to people too that sometimes you're in the wrong place at the wrong time or wrong place, right time because it's a sign that you're not supposed to be doing, maybe the job you're doing or live in the city that you're living in.
Kristen Kish:
The next move after when you are sure that that's not what you want, the next move doesn't have to be what you want. It just needs to be something different so you can try.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm curious. Everybody wants to go to culinary school these days.
Kristen Kish:
I don't know why.
Kerry Diamond:
Even people who don't want to be chefs, who don't want to work in food in any capacity, they just think it sounds like something cool to do. How do you feel about culinary school now?
Kristen Kish:
I think it depends. I went into deep debt because of it.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. You were still paying off your debt when you were on “Top Chef?”
Kristen Kish:
Correct. I only got myself out of debt because I won money. All that money actually still wasn't enough. Yeah. I will never encourage anyone to go to culinary school if it puts them hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt that you aren't going to make coming out of it.
Kerry Diamond:
You point out in the book that I think you were making $30,000, around that?
Kristen Kish:
To mid-30s.
Kerry Diamond:
When you were in charge the kitchen.
Kristen Kish:
When I was in charge. Correct. That's not a life that I feel like anyone should feel like that they have to dig themselves out of. That's a bigger problem, much bigger problem. That is the industry and culinary schools and all the different things, but no, if you have the money and you don't have to stress out so much about what you're going to do and how you're going to pay it off when you're done, then sure, do what you want. But real life experience and people like me and restaurants like mine where we hire the most greenest of green people. I don't care what your degree is, you could have a degree in engineering and I'd hire you if you want to be there, so no.
Kerry Diamond:
An engineer would probably be good in the kitchen.
Kristen Kish:
Also that, but I just think if you have an end to the industry that doesn't require going into crazy debt, I think that's the way to go.
Kerry Diamond:
You start working in restaurants in Chicago and it was a bumpy experience. You described it as a combination too much confidence and cocaine.
Kristen Kish:
Correct.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you elaborate?
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. Cocaine really helped me not feel so anxious. It gave me confidence where I did not have it. It was too much confidence, too much cocaine and too much insecurity. Those three things coming together will put you into places in rooms that you should not be. I don't regret it. I got to feel what it felt like to be the most confident sure of myself that I've ever felt in my entire life, but the energy, it wasn't directed in the right way, obviously because of drugs. I needed to go through it. I don't ever look back thinking, I wish that didn't happen, but choices and decisions were made where I probably in a lot of scenarios probably I wouldn't be sitting here with you if I carried on.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, we're happy you got out of that.
Kristen Kish:
Yes, me too.
Kerry Diamond:
100%. I was also so surprised to learn that not once but twice, you wound up getting these big jobs that you weren't qualified for. I'm not talking about the Menton job, obviously, but jobs you weren't necessarily qualified for because you were still a very green culinary school graduate, but you wound up in these jobs where the people running the restaurants had no idea what they were doing, and you started dealing with bounced paychecks, places that couldn't pay the bills. Twice that happens to you.
Kristen Kish:
Twice. But I will say, as much as I didn't have the experience, one thing that I've always had in my entire life, if I'm given an opportunity, I'm going to do my damnedest to be good at it. Sometimes I might not, and sometimes I actually will be okay and thrive. I wasn't the worst cook, but I didn't have the experience of what it meant to be a leader, and that's the difference between a chef and a cook is the leader and a great skill set as a cook, but yeah, twice.
Kerry Diamond:
It's hard to be a leader when the people who own the place can't pay the bills.
Kristen Kish:
Also that, yeah, they were doing more drugs than I was.
Kerry Diamond:
What a mess.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of leadership, you have your own place today, Arlo Grey at the Line Hotel in Austin, Texas. Happy to say I've been there a few times. I love it. We were there when you first opened and have been there a few times over the years. How's it going at Arlo Grey?
Kristen Kish:
Great. We're celebrating our seventh birthday, June 4th. Alex is my executive chef. He started as my sous chef over seven years ago. My very first hire. Our kitchen is full of, oh God, it's every kitchen that I did not have coming up in this industry. It is full of young people who so generously care for their neighbor that sometimes it puts them a little bit behind and a little bit more in the weeds. All these cooks are going to help someone else get their prep done before they get their prep done. I'm like, nope, that's not what we need, but I understand and I appreciate that. They are green. They are so green.
I don't know if anyone has ever worked in the kind of restaurant that we are. They're all coming from very, very casual, casual backgrounds. They play video games on their weekends. They go out to lunch. I don't think anyone has ever come hungover. It's just a different culture, and they are so kind and I am so grateful. I'm so grateful for them because then when I get to go and be in the kitchen with them, I'm reliving the things that I wish I had.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned in the book that you've transitioned from your mentee phase to your mentor phase. How is that showing up in your leadership skills at Arlo Grey?
Kristen Kish:
I mean, it's changed over the years. I think when we first opened, I was still, I mean, it was my very first restaurant. I was hiring people on paper that were the best of the best. Unfortunately, a lot of the best of the best don't want to be led by perhaps someone like me or just be led in general, so that was a learning curve, and I had to realize that I was the boss and I am the boss and I needed to put my foot down. I was just trying to keep the peace. I didn't want anyone to be upset. I didn't want to make anyone quit. I needed all these people. And then what was incredible shift, which I realized, okay, the people that want to be led will let you lead them. The other ones that don't want to be led, let them go.
They are not for me. I cannot mentor everybody, and so my entire prep team, primarily all young women, very little experience, and then my opening line cook team, primarily all men with the most experience, because that's how this industry is. All those men just either got fired or quit, and then my entire prep team just rose to the occasion, and I realized in that moment, I can teach someone that wants to be there and they can be as great as someone with 10 years experience, and so that's how we focus it now, and I love being a mentor to those who want to be mentored. Because there is a difference. I've had great people that either want to be mentored, think that they want to be mentored, but just they don't. You have to be open to receiving all of it too, and then be open to also personal and professional boundaries
Kerry Diamond:
Two-way street.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You also are a different kind of chef, so it has to be people who are open to that. You were never hired to be the chef who was going to be in their restaurant 365?
Kristen Kish:
Nope.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, no chef should be in their restaurant 365 days a year, but you came to this with them knowing that you were chef who does lots of different things.
Kristen Kish:
I told them right from the get-go. Alex knew when I hired him. I was like, "If you want this executive chef job in two years, when I leave, it's yours, so we have two years to get you ready." And so we both committed to each other and that's exactly what we did. None of them are surprised that I'm not there. It is not a surprise to anyone when I go. I spend time. I'm there. I don't do their jobs or I don't step in anywhere. I'm just there and I'm present. They knew that from the get-go. Setting expectations is very important.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us a little bit about the food for folks headed to Austin. It's such a hot city and that's a great hotel. I recommend you stay at the Line and go have dinner and Arlo Grey.
Kristen Kish:
Hey, please. It's changed. When we first opened, I was cooking what I thought was casual food, all with a nod to different familiar-
Kerry Diamond:
Really? You thought that was casual food?
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. I mean, comparative to where I was coming from.
Kerry Diamond:
Sure.
Kristen Kish:
My last restaurant job was at Relais & Châteaux property, tasting menu only. So I'm cooking what I think is very, very casual. It wasn't landing, it wasn't sticking, and I think that was a really great lesson in learning. I don't have to change who I am and what I want to cook, but I do have to fit into my city in order for people to trust me to come in. We slowly started to make the transition. Then with Alex, my executive chef born, raised Austin, he knows the ins and outs of that city and he has a point of view that's also really important, and so then him and I started to really work together and collaborate on the menu, which is where I feel like we have found our spot.
I needed him to help me get there. And so everything is a nod or a connection back to my Midwest roots. There's always going to be something there. We have a lot of the chefs these days and brilliant restaurants that are really reaching deep into their cultures. Being an adoptee, not cooking Korean food. The deepest I go with my food is like my upbringing, and it's the things that brought me comfort, so it's my comfort Midwestern food, not in that way, definitely reworked, but everything has to have a purpose and a tie to a dish that brings me comfort.
Kerry Diamond:
We're going to switch to something totally different. It's Pride month.
Kristen Kish:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Happy Pride.
Kristen Kish:
Happy Pride.
Kerry Diamond:
... everybody. I didn't realize that you weren't out when you did “Top Chef.”
Kristen Kish:
Really?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Kristen Kish:
Maybe I gave off the gayest of gay energy. Everyone was like, "I know it. How can you look at her and think she's not gay?" And I was like, "Well, that's not a nice thing to say, but also don't assume anything on anyone." But no, they were 100% right. I've been gay my entire life.
Kerry Diamond:
You talk about that in the book, and you also talk about the moment when you really realized that you were gay and I laughed out loud. What was that moment?
Kristen Kish:
I was sitting in a movie theater with a few of my high school girlfriends, and again, I always knew, but this was the gay awakening. Julia Roberts, “Notting Hill,” and not to be confused with Julia Roberts as a person. Her character on “Notting Hill” just was, I don't know, everything about it I was like, who is this?
Kerry Diamond:
Well, it's so funny the way you describe it in the book. I wasn't sure if it was because she gives that speech. I'm just a girl standing in front of a boy and I was like, was it the speech where you're like, I'll never be the girl standing in front of the boy, or was it Julia Roberts?
Kristen Kish:
So I can tell you the exact scene where I was like, there's this thing where she's doing this press junket, so if you've never watched the movie, highly recommend it. She's doing a press junket. Hugh Grant's character walks in and she's looking out the window and she turns around and she's got the most lesbian of suits on, a chunky tie, a beautiful wide-leg pants, the shirt tucked in, and I was like the angels sung when she turned around, and that was, I was like, okay.
Kerry Diamond:
It was Julia Roberts.
Kristen Kish:
It was Anna Scott, her character played by Julia Roberts.
Kerry Diamond:
Thanks for clarifying.
Kristen Kish:
But also, Julia Roberts is beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
She is so beautiful. Have you two met at this point?
Kristen Kish:
No, but I'm really, really, really willing it to happen so I can tell her.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, we've got to make this happen. Can she be a guest on the next “Top Chef?”
Kristen Kish:
I don't know if I'll be able to look at her. I mean, I'm going to look at her, but I might stare. I don't know. There's something I don't know. You never forget your first, and she was definitely my first real, real crush.
Kerry Diamond:
And I think she knows her way around a kitchen.
Kristen Kish:
Does she?
Kerry Diamond:
I think so.
Kristen Kish:
Even better.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. She wrote a little story for us like a hundred years ago.
Kristen Kish:
Did she really? So you have a connection to her or her people?
Kerry Diamond:
Her people, yeah.
Kristen Kish:
All right.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Okay. We're going to put that out in the universe, but that would be really fun to see Julia on “Top Chef.” Okay. What finally encouraged you to come out?
Kristen Kish:
I fell in love. I met my first girlfriend a month after the “Top Chef” finale aired. I fell in love and I realized about eight months into it, we would walk down the street, we would hold hands, but the second we turned a corner or things got busy, I'd let go. I was terrified, absolutely terrified, and I don't know exactly why I was so scared to be gay. I think it's just I wasn't ready to do it. And then another thing happened where her and I were at a very well-known restaurant, and this isn't in the book, this is also a hot take. Again, I'm not going to drop names, but we can sidebar. Two of the people running that restaurant, prominent male figures basically did a double court press on us. So one after one and one after me, and I'm sitting there and we're playing this fucking game where we're laughing and doing this thing and they don't know-
Kerry Diamond:
You mean they're hitting on you?
Kristen Kish:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Kristen Kish:
They don't know that we're-
Kerry Diamond:
Let the guessing games begin people. I'm thinking, how many restaurant duos do I know? Okay, continue.
Kristen Kish:
It's not even really a duo. They're just two prominent male figures. Anyways, whatever. So then they start doing this thing on us and they weren't doing anything wrong.
Kerry Diamond:
I won't start saying names out loud to make you-
Kristen Kish:
Please don't.
Kerry Diamond:
... say yes or no. Okay.
Kristen Kish:
They didn't do or say anything wrong, but in that moment I was like, am I still pretending like this as my girlfriend sits next to me? And I felt gross because of the actions that I was doing, not because of what they were doing, and I was like, this isn't working for me anymore. And then on my one-year anniversary, I posted a picture on Instagram. I forgot that point, people were actually following me on Instagram, and then I just outed myself without even understanding that I was outing myself.
Kerry Diamond:
How was that process for you when you realized what you had done?
Kristen Kish:
Oh my God, it was amazing. A week after Huffington Post made me what I think in that time, it was like their unicorn of the day or something, and it was like my head on a unicorn with a rainbow unicorn thingy. I was like, this is great, and I will say it was made so much better and easier because so many queer people, and not queer people, just completely came out and said, we love you, we support you, and whereas I was telling myself, no one is going to like me or I am going to have the hardest time doing this. Everyone else just proved me wrong. With that support, I can handle some of the things that are obviously still not kind that are thrown at me today because of it.
Kerry Diamond:
Still?
Kristen Kish:
Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I shouldn't be surprised.
Kristen Kish:
I know.
Kerry Diamond:
Given what's going on today, sadly.
Kristen Kish:
But I will say it was because of complete strangers that I felt loved, which was great.
Kerry Diamond:
As was often the case, your first thought was your parents. The whole time where you just worried what your parents would think?
Kristen Kish:
I knew they weren't going to have a problem with me being gay. I grew up in a house that was, whoever you are, whatever you become, change it a million times, just be a good person. I was taught my values from a very, very young age, and so I knew that they weren't going to disown me or have horrible opinions because I was gay. I just was so unsure of me in that scenario that I couldn't even assume that anyone else was going to be okay with it, my parents included. But when I finally told my parents, my mom goes, "I think we already knew." And I was like, "Okay. Great. Thanks. Thanks so much."
Kerry Diamond:
I won't ask too many follow-up questions because I want people to read the book. I want to save a few things for those of you who are going to pick it up or listen to Kristen read it, why did you decide to read it versus say, Julia Roberts reading it?
Kristen Kish:
Oh, that have been something. The audiobook is a natural thing that is asked of you, and so I was like, I don't think I can do it. They're like, it's going to be six-hour sessions for the next month, and you're basically in a booth just reading your book. I was like, that sounds incredibly overwhelming. I was like, I don't think I'm going to be very good at it. I get into the booth, I start to do it. I don't love it. It's not my favorite process, but as I was reading my story, all I could think of, no one else should be able to get to read my story because as you know that there's emotion and there's weight and there's levity in what I'm saying because I can feel the words that I'm saying. I continued on because I didn't want anyone else to do it.
Kerry Diamond:
The most moving parts are when you talk about your wife, Bianca.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. If you start asking me about her, I will cry. I will.
Kerry Diamond:
Those of us who know Bianca, love Bianca, you two are a great couple. When you start talking about the Bianca story, you can hear in the reading that your voice starts to break, you sniffle. It's something you don't hear in a lot of audiobooks.
Kristen Kish:
There's something about her, and I think, I don't know how many people, I mean, have you ever cried talking about someone you love so much?
Kerry Diamond:
Sure.
Kristen Kish:
Okay. It's just because when I'm saying the words, I'm not just saying, I love you. See, now I'm going to cry. When you say you love someone, it's not just lip service. It's not just because I'm running around and I love you, and then you hop out the door. I don't operate like that. I feel it to my core on why every single time I say it, I can tell why I love her, and I do the same with my parents. It's just, I think for a long time I didn't feel what I was feeling and I actively shut off so much of compassion for myself and others that as I've gotten older and I've course corrected a lot of that and why I did that, I can't help but fuel it now, and so now I'm just like an emotional mess. I cried on the last episode of “Top Chef” too.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, my biggest takeaway from the book is that at the end, you've learned to love yourself.
Kristen Kish:
Yes. That. Yeah. Yes. Self-love is a funny thing because we are taught from a young age, especially as young girls, everyone should also love themselves, but we are taught no one is going to love us in the way that we can love ourselves because the world doesn't treat women and a lot of scenarios like that, whatever, so you got to be your own big champion, et cetera, et cetera, which I never really understood. I was having this conversation with a friend the other day and we were talking about loving yourself and how you have to love yourself or you can love anybody else, all that stuff, but you don't actually know what it is until you feel it. I was trying to come up with the words in that conversation, and I could not figure out how to convey that feeling. It's just a feeling that I hope that everyone feels at one point and many, many, many years of their life, I hope that they feel that.
Kerry Diamond:
Since we're talking about power, we weren't just talking about power. We're talking about love and lots of other things.
Kristen Kish:
Which is power.
Kerry Diamond:
Which is power. Absolutely. The power of love. That's one of the stories-
Kristen Kish:
Huey Lewis an the News.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. That reference doesn't date you at all. One of the articles in the magazine is called The Power of Love about Rita Sodi and Jodie Williams from Via Carota. I mean, they're just such superstars. The new issue is out, and it's all about power. You're on the power list. We're doing our power awards. Since we're talking about power, do you even think of yourself as powerful today?
Kristen Kish:
Yes and no. I know that I am because strangers, the things that people say to me, people like you putting me on these lists. I understand that I have that. I think that me and power have had a complicated relationship only because it was modeled to me by so many other people that I felt like did not actually have power, and they used it wrong. Whether that be restaurant bosses or a lot of people in my life, I've had to sit in meetings with and have conversation with where they hold the power in their hands and they did it, and I was terrified and I second guessed myself. They made me believe that they were the only thing. This is what power looks like, and so it was modeled to me so wrongly. I realized that power is my power that I hope to have, and project is soft power.
It's kind power. It is vulnerable. It is not proving myself to anybody. I am confidently and authentically and genuinely living my life in the best way that I know how and that is going to be full of questions and mistakes and choices that maybe I shouldn't have made or moments in my life that I question, but at least I'm strong enough and brave enough to go through all of that, and to me, that is power when you come out on the other end. I think that power also gives people permission to also lean into that version of themselves. It's quiet.
Kerry Diamond:
You are using your power more to protect yourself, which is interesting. That came through in the second half of the book. You say no to things now that you would've said yes to even just a few years ago.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. I mean, I'm protecting my personal life and not letting the professional life overtake. My professional life is incredibly amazing. I love every second of it, but my personal life is the thing that I value the most, and so no matter what I say yes to, if it does not honor or protect or serve my personal life and I'm not going to do it. Because time is the greatest thing we have. We don't have a lot of it. When you think about it, I need to make sure that my time is spent wisely, and that is with the people that I love the most.
Kerry Diamond:
And just being out and proud today.
Kristen Kish:
Oh God, what a great feeling. Being gay is awesome. It feels good. I feel powerful because I am genuinely and truthfully living my life with my wife, who I round a corner and I do not let go of her hand. I talk about her, I celebrate her. I have the language to have conversations with other people that might be going through it, and I have the strength and the confidence to fight against the things that say my life doesn't matter.
Kerry Diamond:
We're going to do a quick speed round.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What beverage do you start the day with?
Kristen Kish:
Water and coffee.
Kerry Diamond:
And coffee. How do you take it?
Kristen Kish:
Black.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite cookbook of yours?
Kristen Kish:
I don't cook from cookbooks, but I will say any cookbook. All the cookbooks are great cookbooks, and when people and chefs decide to put out a book and a cookbook, you don't make a lot of money off of it. You rely on the fact that people are going to support you and want to learn about you through your food, and so because of that, the work that it takes to put one out, I love every single one that makes it onto the shelves.
Kerry Diamond:
Good answer. I pulled your cookbook out of the shelf and took a look at it. It's such a time capsule.
Kristen Kish:
It really is. 2017.
Kerry Diamond:
I was like, is that even what Kristen considers her food anymore?
Kristen Kish:
Some of it, yes, because they all have a tie to something else.
Kerry Diamond:
It's fancy.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. Is it fancy?
Kerry Diamond:
You don't think so?
Kristen Kish:
I don't think so.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Kristen Kish:
I don't know. Maybe I just need to come up with a casual cookbook and see how casual I can go. I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you going to do another cookbook?
Kristen Kish:
I never say never.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. There's so much work.
Kristen Kish:
But not right now.
Kerry Diamond:
What's always in your fridge?
Kristen Kish:
Condiments, specifically Kewpie mayonnaise. Probably things that are slightly expired.
Kerry Diamond:
You love snacking. What's your favorite snack food?
Kristen Kish:
Oh God, Kerry. That's so... Okay. Okay. A potato chip, any kind of potato chip, anything crunchy, salty, but I also love candy, like gummy candy.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now? So much good TV right now.
Kristen Kish:
Oh my God. We are on the last season. We are so late to the party. Way late. I'm going to say it and you're going to be like, wait, now we're on the very last season of “This Is Us.” Remember that show from a really long time ago about the three kids?
Kerry Diamond:
No. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember that. I never watched it. Is it good?
Kristen Kish:
If you want to cry, yeah. I mean, it puts you in your feels, but we are so close to finishing it.
Kerry Diamond:
And why that show?
Kristen Kish:
We were trying to find a series because we binge-watch all the things that we want to watch and then it's over, and so we were like, we need to start a series that has a lot of different seasons. That show has six seasons each, 18 episodes, and let's just start it. Thing is when you start it, all you want to do is finish it. So it's taken us quite a while, but we're almost there.
Kerry Diamond:
Anything current?
Kristen Kish:
I think I'm waiting for “The Bear” to come out like everyone else. I'm waiting for “Paradise” season 2 to come out. I'm waiting for more “Great British Bake Off” to hit Netflix, so then we can watch those. And of course, “Top Chef.”
Kerry Diamond:
And of course, “Top Chef.” What's your favorite food film?
Kristen Kish:
I don't even remember the last one I watched. What's yours?
Kerry Diamond:
It's okay.
Kristen Kish:
Wait, what's yours?
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, “Ratatouille.”
Kristen Kish:
Oh, okay. Yes. Pixar.
Kerry Diamond:
I love “Ratatouille.”
Kristen Kish:
Yes, Pixar. Okay, fine. I'll say that.
Kerry Diamond:
Strong female chef.
Kristen Kish:
Also that. And a very powerful rat.
Kerry Diamond:
And a very powerful rat. You love to travel?
Kristen Kish:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
Where haven't you been? I mean you've hosted travel shows, so I'm not sure what's left.
Kristen Kish:
I haven't been to a lot of places, Kerry. Every place that I have yet to go to are the places I want to go. I do have one row and I travel is speaking of Pride month. I don't go to places that don't recognize my marriage as being a marriage.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good rule.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, last question. No idea what your answer's going to be. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, has to be food celebrity, can't be Julia Roberts. Who would it be and why?
Kristen Kish:
You might question because I don't know if they're a food celebrity, but I feel like she's done a lot in the food world to make it better. Michelle Obama.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that answer. Have you two met?
Kristen Kish:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
She needs to be a guest next time.
Kristen Kish:
I'm too. I went to the White House when her and President Obama were obviously an office and it was fantastic. I went during Pride month.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, how cool.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah, really cool. When I got to listen to him speak, it was brilliant.
Kerry Diamond:
Why her on the island?
Kristen Kish:
One, I think she's a fascinating person. She's got dance moves and she could probably teach me, she could also feed us. She's smart, she's resilient. She is versatile in the things that she knows and quite frankly, she just seems like a good hang. And to pass time on a deserted island, you want someone that you can hang out with.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. That kind of was a rhetorical question. Obviously. She's a great choice. Kristen, you are the Bombe.
Kristen Kish:
So are you.
Kerry Diamond:
I love seeing you. I love listening to your book. Congratulations on everything.
Kristen Kish:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And say hi to Bianca.
Kristen Kish:
I will.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Kristen Kish for stopping by. And a big thank you to Veuve Clicquot. We've got a brand new power episode next Wednesday. I'll be chatting with Katina Connaughton, head farmer and co-founder of Sonoma County's Single Thread, one of the most celebrated restaurants in the entire country. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to CityVox in New York City. Our producers are Tarkor Zehn, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. And our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. Don't forget to use your power for good. You are the Bombe.