Kristina Cho Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine.
With me in the studio today is Kristina Cho, the award-winning cookbook author. Kristina joins me to talk about her latest “Chinese Enough: Homestyle Recipes for Noodles, Dumplings, Stir-Fries, and More.” It's the follow-up to her surprise hit, “Mooncakes and Milk Bread.” Learn how Kristina pivoted from architecture to food. Yes, she walked away from a promising career as an architect, plus how a colleague helped kickstart her current career, the personal story behind the title of her book, and why she followed up her popular baking book with a savory cookbook. I love chatting with Kristina and I can't wait to make the recipes we talked about. Stay tuned.
Today's episode is presented by Kerrygold. Have you noticed that butter is having a moment? I've seen handbags sculpted out of butter, little couches made from butter pads, tiny butter cherubs, even butter-colored nail polish and fashion. The world is butter-obsessed. But you know who loves butter More than most? The folks at Kerrygold. They've been perfecting their craft for decades. Using milk from Irish grass-fed cows to create their famously rich, creamy, golden butter. There's a reason Kerrygold is beloved by everyone from home cooks to the world's top culinary creatives. It's just better butter. Kerrygold salted pure Irish butter has a butterfat content of 80%. Well, the unsalted version has a butterfat content of 82%. That beautiful yellow color? It's thanks to beta-carotene found naturally in milk from grass-fed cows. Want to get in on the fun? Get yourself some Kerrygold and whip up some flavored compound butter, fill some fancy butter molds, or sculpt one of those gorgeous butter mounds for your next dinner party or get together. Visit kerrygoldusa.com to learn more, get recipes, and find a stockist near you.
Tickets are on sale for our Jubilee 2025 conference happening April 12th in New York City. That date is so far away, yet not. Jubilee is an amazing day of community and connection and great food. This Jubilee is going to be our biggest one yet. We are busy planning lots of exciting stuff for you. Early bird tickets are on sale at cherrybombe.com, and if you are an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing.
Now let's check in with today's guest. Kristina Cho, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Kristina Cho:
Hey, Kerry. Happy to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so nice to have you on the show. You've been on Jessie's show, but tell us what brings you to New York.
Kristina Cho:
I'm in the middle of book tour right now for my second cookbook, “Chinese Enough.” I had an event in Brooklyn last night, and then now I'm traveling across the rest of the East Coast.
Kerry Diamond:
Cookbook authors are the new rock stars, right?
Kristina Cho:
I guess so, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
All of you. You're on tour across the country. I feel like you need a tour bus or something.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, it's funny to say I'm going on tour. It's a really cool thing to say. From my first cookbook, I got to go on tour as well, and I feel like I got in at a very good time. It was the fall of 2021 when people were emerging and doing in-person events again. It was just really rewarding to see other people connect with the book, see real humans out there.
Kerry Diamond:
Not only did they connect, but it was a bestseller. It was definitely a culture-changing book. It really was the first modern English language book dedicated to Chinese baked goods, pastries, bakeries, all those things, right?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a little hard to believe.
Kristina Cho:
I don't believe it. Sometimes you're like, how did I get the chance in the year 2021 to publish a book like that?
Kerry Diamond:
It's so interesting because it just feels like we're so inundated with cookbooks now. It's like how could that be?
Kristina Cho:
Well, I really wanted to write that book, especially because I had one, never seen anything like that before. I think I spoke to a lot of people who maybe grew up in a similar way to me where we would go to Chinese bakeries as a special treat with our families. That always just felt like something that was reserved for a bakery to do, a professional person to do. There's not a strong home baking culture in Asian culture, so that's also probably why it didn't cross over into other media and other worlds.
But I think with the introduction of “Mooncakes and Milk Bread,” it has introduced this new genre of third world baking or non-Eurocentric baking books, which is really exciting to see.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about the experience of getting a cookbook deal.
Kristina Cho:
I've shared my story of how I got this cookbook deal, and I feel like it's unique.
Before I started working in food full-time doing Eat Cho Food, my blog, and writing, I was a architectural designer and interior designer, but I was unhappy doing that. That's how I started my blog. I just wanted to channel my energy into something else. I've always loved food and photography, just creating something beautiful and sharing stories. The last firm I worked at before I quit my project manager, Alexis, his ex-sister-in-law is now my literary agent, if you can track that. But before she became my literary agent, he just mentioned me maybe in passing at Thanksgiving or a family dinner and said, "Hey, one of my designers dabbles in food. She brings in really tasty treats all the time to the office. Maybe you should check it out."
I was talking to my agent. She told me at first, she was like, "I don't know," because she represents a lot of really big people. But she took the chance. She read my work and she just sent me an email. At that time, I'm not being humble, but I was no one. I was just having fun on the internet. I had a couple thousand followers on Instagram. I didn't have a TikTok viral video at the time or anything like that. She just read my work and understood my POV of sharing different facets of my culture through food that is not normally seen and took a chance on me.
We had coffee and she said, "I think you should write a cookbook," and helped me go towards this Chinese baking book. That's how I got my agent, and then she shopped it around. No publisher wanted it except for the one publisher that did. Everyone passed on it because I was, again, nobody. Who would want a Chinese baking book? There was not a lot of confidence in it, but one publisher did take a chance on me. It was imprint of Harper Collins, Harper Horizon.
Kerry Diamond:
That is an amazing story. You had your “Pretty Woman” moment though after that. You were able to be like big mistake, big.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, exactly. I've never thought about it that way, but I should use that reference more often.
Kerry Diamond:
Not only did it sell well, you won awards-
Kristina Cho:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
... for that book.
Kristina Cho:
Yes, I did. I won two James Beard Awards on my wedding day. That's a fun fact. I could not go to the James Beard Awards because I had planned my wedding for June 11th, 2022.
It was funny. When I got the nominations, I had a feeling. I was talking to my husband, I was like, "I hope it's not on our wedding day," because it was coming up soon, and then I saw it, I'm like, Nope. Exactly the exact same day.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my gosh. Not only did you win, you won two awards and you weren't even there. Oh, that's painful.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, I heard about it. My sister-in-law was checking Twitter at the time. Right before it was putting on my wedding dress, she was like, "You won." I just froze. I was just like this. You can imagine so much emotion on your wedding day, a lifetime achievement, something I never expected to all happen on a very hot day in California.
Kerry Diamond:
I do want to go back to the architecture part because you grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. You went to school and studied architecture. Why was architecture your passion or your plan back then?
Kristina Cho:
Yes.
I will say for a little bit, I was inspired to go to culinary school. I thought about it for a little bit during high school, but then my love of art really overtook everything. I always love to paint. I love pottery, making jewelry, just doing things with my hands. I've always been a really creative kid and then young adult, teenager, and so I decided to study architecture.
I had this love of homes ever since I was a kid. I would pick up these catalogs at the grocery store that had these floor plans of model homes, but I would ask my mom, "Can I have a copy of this?" I would just flip through it and just look at floor plans. And so I've always just been obsessed with layouts. I loved houses, and so I was like, "I'm going to be a residential architect," so I studied architecture. I loved architecture school so much.
Kerry Diamond:
I'll be right back with today's guest.
The fall issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine is finally here and guess who our cover star is? It's Jeni Britton of Jeni's Splendid Ice Creams, the artisanal ice cream company that changed the game. This might just be our coolest cover yet, and I can't wait for you to read all about Jeni and her entrepreneurial journey. Also, we have a bonus cover. It's the delightful Abi Balingit of The Dusky Kitchen and the award-winning cookbook, “Mayumu.” This issue is dedicated to the creative class and highlights innovative and imaginative folks in and around the world of food, including fashion designers, artists, photographers, and of course lots of pastry chefs. Head to cherrybombe.com to snag a copy, or check out our list of retailers to find Cherry Bombe's print magazine at a store near you.
I want to go back though to you being a kid. How did you even know that was a career?
Kristina Cho:
That's a really good question.
Kerry Diamond:
Because to be in high school and be thinking, "I want to be a residential architect," that's not the norm.
Kristina Cho:
My high school had this program called technical drawing, and you could take it all four years, different levels of it and stuff. I remember I signed up for it my freshman year because I was like, "Oh, I think this is maybe in line with architecture," because you learned how to do a technical drawing for a toothbrush, very simple objects. But then you all of a sudden graduated to designing a house. That was a project that you would do in your junior, senior year.
And so I took this class and I started learning about, "Oh, this is a profession. Learning how to create and draw details and communicate to someone else how to build a house."
Kerry Diamond:
In high school you were learning this?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So interesting.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so you go to college.
Kristina Cho:
So I go to college. I am still obsessed with food at this time. I tell my friends, "Were you guys ever wondering why I was always having weird dinner parties," or I would try to incorporate some element of food or feeding people into all my projects. My senior thesis was a grocery store. I designed a Kroger, like a Kroger of the future.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, I want to know more about this.
Kristina Cho:
This grocery store design was maybe 12, 11 years ago. In a way, looking at grocery stores now I see a lot of the same features and themes I designed in grocery stores now. It was sponsored by Kroger, so they bought all our ideas. They could take our drawings and sketches and stuff, and I designed this Kroger in downtown Cincinnati because I wanted more of an urban city grocery store.
I wanted it to also be a community center to serve the community that had this grocery store here before it was an existing lot, so there was a meeting area. There was small incubator kitchens on the second floor for small businesses to test their food and then sell it to the people in the community.
Kerry Diamond:
The supermarket of the future. It's a fascinating topic.
Wow. Do you think you'll do more on that subject ever?
Kristina Cho:
I have a small dream of opening up a grocery store like a superette in the future, but it's a small dream at this point. I drive around the East Bay where I live, and I look at different for lease or for rent signs. I'm just like, "That has really nice light. I could imagine the shelves there."
Kerry Diamond:
You've got fantastic places over there, like Bi-Rite. How would yours be different? Would it be a little more modern?
Kristina Cho:
I think it would be a little bit more modern. I do want it to be the dream Asian grocery store pantry store. Because one of my biggest qualms when I talk to other people when they say, they're like, "Oh, I don't really cook as much Chinese or Asian foods because I can't find the ingredients." Two things I say back to that. My parents live in Cleveland, Ohio, and there's a small Chinatown there. Sometimes I think if my family can get things in Cleveland, Ohio or my brother in Columbus, you can find it and you can order anything at the grocery store.
But then I also understand how when you go to a new grocery store, and I feel this way sometimes, you're so overwhelmed by all the different options. You're like, "I don't know what oyster sauce I should buy or what sesame oil is best. Should I buy some shrimp paste to take home?" You get a little bit of shopping paralysis. I imagine this grocery store to be this more curated, one to two options for all things I love to cook with every day and build a foundational Asian pantry and grocery store and some Asian vegetables. Maybe there's dumplings there, too. I don't know. I can keep adding forever, but that's the base of it.
Kerry Diamond:
I love this idea. You're an architect and your husband is an architect?
Kristina Cho:
Yes, and my husband is an architect still.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your house like?
Kristina Cho:
I live in a 100-year-old California bungalow. It's not a huge house. We bought it a few years ago. We bought it because it's never been touched because I knew I wanted to redo our kitchen. I didn't want to buy a house with a flipped kitchen or anything like that. We lived in it for about three and a half years before we actually started renovating just to get a sense of how we want to live in this house.
A lot of people just go in guns blazing. They're like, "I'm going to knock down walls and do everything," but we just wanted to live in it. My husband designed our new kitchen. We opened up some walls. When you walk into our house, you can essentially, again, it's not a big house, see all the way to the backyard. It's so nice and dreamy. Can see plants and my fruit trees in the back, and there's really nice light that comes in the afternoon-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, fruit trees.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, fruit trees.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell this New Yorker what kind of fruit trees you have in your backyard.
Kristina Cho:
I have a mandarin orange tree that has one baby orange on it right now. I have a persimmon tree with no fruit. I have a fig tree that has about 5,000 figs on it right now. A lemon tree, a quince bush, an olive tree I guess counts, and I have a guava.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my gosh. You moved into heaven.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your pantry like?
Kristina Cho:
My pantry is a cabinet. I don't have a walk-in pantry or anything. On the bottom I have this lazy Susan. It works for my brain for me to see everything because I want to know that it's there. I have a lazy Susan that has a lot of my different sauces and oils in there. And then I have a shelf for all of my dry goods, like beans, Sichuan peppercorns, cinnamon sticks, things like that. Smells really good in that aisle.
And then I have a shelf that has my air fryer microwave in there with some snacks. And then the top is my little snack area with different crackers and canned goods and all the miscellaneous stuff.
Kerry Diamond:
You said something really interesting, that architecture helped you learn how to tackle a big project because you break it down into doable bits. That must have helped you with cooking and baking.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like in architecture school and also working professionally in architecture, I was able to compartmentalize a really huge project. For example, at one of my firms I was designing a 500-unit multifamily building, and so it's huge. An architecture project is often divided into phases so it's a little bit more digestible that way. You have a concept and ideation phase. There's this next phase where you're just iterating, throwing all the ideas out there and retesting theories of how a space can function over and over again until you're happy with how it functions and how it operates and also how it looks.
And then there's the construction documentation phase, where when you're actually just drawing everything and making these details for an engineer or a contractor to understand. Not everyone can just look at a pretty picture and say, "I can build that," so you have to get into the details.
And then there's the construction phase, where someone is actually building what you've been working on for months. You have to oversee them. They'll have questions. You have to go into the building in the field and look at it and answer them on the spot or go back to the office.
I treat my books and a lot of my bigger projects in that sense. Writing a proposal is very much like that very early ideation phase, where you're coming up with essentially your thesis for the book and you reference that, at least I do. I reference it a lot as I'm working on the book to remind me what am I doing. And then recipe testing is that ideation phase where you're trying to get the recipe as perfect and zipped up as possible. And then you're designing your book. You're putting it in this physical form and checking to make sure everything is referencing each other correctly and you have a nice visual language.
And then maybe the end is book tour. You're seeing it actually in people's homes and seeing the recipes that people make and hopefully feeling confident that the recipes taste good and it's working well in other people's kitchens.
Kerry Diamond:
It must have been really helpful to think that way when tackling the first cookbook. Because cookbooks are really hard and the book companies do not hold your hand for the process.
Kristina Cho:
Exactly. “Mooncakes and Milk Bread “ was such a learning experience for me. I'll honestly say I had no idea what I was doing. I was just trying to bake really good buns and cookies and things like that and capture it. Because I had just left architecture so freshly at that point that that was the only way that I could approach that project.
Kerry Diamond:
You had the added thing of baked goods. I remember when we did our cookbook, anything that was brown, the publisher was like, "You have so many brown photos," and I was like, "Oh, the food is brown. What can I do about that?"
Kristina Cho:
I know. Buns and baked goods are often brown unless you add a natural food coloring to it.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you tackle that with the photography?
Kristina Cho:
I will say a lot of the things in my book were brown.
I also think that there's also so much dimension in brown. Again, that's maybe the architecture thing. Last night I got a question about design as well, and I think when I come up with a recipe, I can visualize it in a way. It's not like I see a clear pineapple bun in my brain when I close my eyes, but I can at least imagine the shape of it. I have a vision of the nuanced colors that I want to shoot for.
For a bun, I would use a pink bakery box as a way to tell the story of a bakery, but then you have this vibrant color contrast with a brown bun. Or add things like sesame seeds, green onions, to contrast that a little bit, add some texture and dimension. I love photography and I love styling as well, so that challenge is very rewarding for me.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your new book, “Chinese Enough.” That title, how did you come up with it?
Kristina Cho:
I came up with it at the very end-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, really?
Kristina Cho:
... of writing my manuscript. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You did the whole book and you didn't know what the title was going to be?
Kristina Cho:
Yes, so I worked on “Chinese Enough” over the course of... I think I had the concept of it four years ago. I had a really soul healing dinner at my parents' house. It was the winter of 2020 in December, and that's where I got this idea that I wanted to create a home style Chinese cookbook that captured the spirit of this specific meal that my parents had made for me. It was just really comforting. I felt very cared for, and the food was so humble and simple. It was just tomato, eggs, steamed rice, some soup.
I was like, "I want to cook like this more." Not that I don't make those recipes, but I just missed it so much, and so-
Kerry Diamond:
Had you finished the baking book?
Kristina Cho:
Yes, so you could do the math. I had just submitted the manuscript for “Mooncakes and Milk Bread,” and I was so tired and burnt out. I ate so much bread over the course of a year. It was the pandemic time, and so I think that all contributed to the fact I want to write a savory book. Except I was also hoping for a little bit of a break, but then I got this idea and I told my agent. And then it just snowballed from there.
Kerry Diamond:
I was curious why you didn't do another baking book because you became so known for that. You were the go-to for milk bread, all those things.
Kristina Cho:
Yes. I think a lot of people approach me on the sidewalk like, "Oh, are you the Mooncake or the Milk Bread lady?" I'm like, "Yes. I'm also Kristina."
While that's so flattering, I think a part of me didn't want to be pushed into a corner of only doing baking because a lot of the world a of the food world got to know me as a baker. But if you knew me as a real person before you would be like, "Oh, Kristina's a home cook." I love having people come over to my home. I love cooking a feast. I actually hate cooking just for me. It stresses me out a little bit. I'm like, "I'm just going to eat a box of Annie's Mac and Cheese instead. I am not cooking the whole thing for myself." I love feeding people and I love creating community.
The tying back to my love of architecture and why I loved homes, I found that same feeling writing cookbooks. Because I think that creating recipes and creating opportunities for people to gather together creates that same sense that a home does, that feeling of comfort and community. I found the parallels in that.
Yeah, it just felt really natural for me to move on to a second project that was a big deviation to homestyle savory cooking. There, of course, is a dessert chapter at the end, but I just wanted to share more holistic view of how I cook and the food that I like to make.
Kerry Diamond:
So smart of you because it's so easy to get pigeonholed. You came up with that idea before your book had even come out before you even knew how much the world would pigeonhole you.
Kristina Cho:
Yes, exactly.
I think going back to your original question, the title of “Chinese Enough”, I didn't come up with it until the end because I feel like the book changed a lot while I was writing it because I started writing it before “Mooncakes and Milk Bread” came out, before James Beard Awards. In a way, all the great things that happened with “Mooncakes and Milk Bread” gave me more inspiration and more motivation to make this book a little deeper than just dinner recipes.
When I wrote “Mooncakes,” my style of writing is very personal. I love to add a little bit of humanity behind the recipe in addition to practical knowledge, like how to make a really light and fluffy bun. But I also want you to know that I would look forward to my summer trips to Chicago because that was the closest bakery. A lot of people related to that more human element behind the recipes, and I wasn't sure about that. I was really nervous when that book came out and just wanted to know how people would find it resonating or not.
I got so many kind messages about those stories. It gave me that confidence to incorporate that more in “Chinese Enough.” That's also the story of “Chinese Enough” is coming of age, learning more about myself through cooking, and I think that element of “Mooncakes and Milk Bread” definitely impacted this. And so by the end of writing my manuscript, I was trying to reflect and think about why all these recipes exist in the way that they do, how they're all connected. I was just thinking about how I feel Chinese enough finally, at the end of writing this book, after writing my first book.
I was a little nervous again to pitch that title to my editor, I said it and I could tell immediately that she got it. I could see something in her eyes and I was like, "Okay, I think she's going to accept this," because I had some other ideas that weren't that great. Yeah, that was the journey of coming up with “Chinese Enough.”
Kerry Diamond:
It's so interesting that you were able to write the whole book without the title. I can't even write an article until I have the title figured out in my head.
Kristina Cho:
I normally need to. It was causing me so much anguish.
I had other titles in place. The original title of it was called Have You Eaten Yet, which is a saying that a lot of Asian families, a lot of immigrants families, that's how you greet each other. Instead of saying, "Hello, how are you," you just say, "Have you eaten yet?" It's oddly a way of getting a gauge on how you are doing.
I still really love that title. It's actually the name of my Substack now, so I still got to use it, but I understand how it's maybe a little vague. You don't-
Kerry Diamond:
Right. It doesn't have the pow wow factor that “Chinese Enough” does.
But you also explain the title in your intro and you talk about growing up in Cleveland. White school, white friends, white community, and that you never quite felt like there was a place for you to fit in.
Kristina Cho:
Yes, exactly. As a child, it's not like I was totally aware of that dichotomy between being American and also being Chinese, but I was aware of the fact that I felt uncomfortable. I had those squeamish when someone would say something that didn't quite feel really good.
My family always made me feel seen and great, and that was my safe space. But when we would go to the small Chinatown that does exist in Cleveland, and we would see my grandma's friends, different aunties and stuff, they would make comments about how a dress or how I speak or the things that I'm interested in, those things that made me me. I was like, "Oh, is that wrong?"
And then I would go back to my suburb that was mostly Caucasian, and I would feel not totally American enough either. Just either by the way that I looked or different cultural things, like the food I would bring, but I still was a very Midwestern '90s kid at the same time.
Kerry Diamond:
You talk about some regrets that you had also back then. I think you had an opportunity to go to-
Kristina Cho:
Chinese school.
Kerry Diamond:
... on the weekends, and you decided not to do that.
Kristina Cho:
Yes, that's actually I feel like one of my biggest regrets.
I remember I went to Chinese school one time and I was really upset I think afterwards because I either felt like I couldn't connect with the kids or... I don't know. I was just having a lot of big emotions as a small kid and my parents were like, "Okay, you don't need to go to Chinese school." But now I wish I did because I wish my Cantonese was a little bit better, but my project right now still is relearn or brushing up on my Cantonese skills instead.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know if it's any easier for kids today, but there is a lot more conversation around the idea of third culture. There is a lot more talk about what that means today to be navigating these different cultures.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, and I absolutely wish that was a concept that was taught to me as a kid. Because I think it is a really world opening idea to allow yourself to be able to accept that you're not in one world or the other. You've created your own thing.
I did not use those words verbatim in my book anywhere, I don't think. But I definitely think it's still in that spirit of through cooking, I was able to embrace all these different elements in people and places that I've called home in my life to create this world that feels very much like me.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I thought your title was very third culture title.
Kristina Cho:
Yes, yes, exactly. I think that “Chinese Enough” feels a little cheeky. Some people think there's a little bit of humor in it, but I also think it's quietly powerful, which is very much more my style, I guess. I really love it. I'm glad I came up with it. The final-
Kerry Diamond:
At the eleventh hour.
Kristina Cho:
The final hour, so yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You're on tour right now. What are some of the recipes people are really gravitating toward?
Kristina Cho:
That has been the most exciting part to see what recipes people have been making first.
The very first internet documentation of a recipe that got shared with me, it was actually before my official pub because I got to do an event in San Francisco before it was the creamy tomato udon. I was one surprised, but also not surprised. I designed that recipe as a pantry recipe. We use frozen blocks of udon, canned coconut milk, tomato paste. And then if you have aromatics like fresh ginger, garlic, you can add that in there too and a little bit of fish sauce.
And so that's my version of a pantry pasta that I feel like going to make all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm going to make that tonight.
Kristina Cho:
But you can pair it with the miso pork meatballs or anything, any of the other meats in the book. But I was not surprised. I guess after thinking about them, I designed it to be that way.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about those meatballs.
Kristina Cho:
Oh, those meatballs have one, also been incredibly popular while I've been on tour. Because I've been doing these restaurant collabs and pop-ups, and the meatballs have been chosen maybe four times. Maybe every restaurant has picked the meatballs. Someone told me that they love them because it's a familiar vehicle. I love the wording. I think they said a familiar vehicle or vessel but unexpected flavors, and I think that's the power of meatballs. Maybe someone should write a meatball cookbook. That would be really fun. I don't know if that's in me.
But the miso pork meatballs, it's ground pork. You make this really savory mixture of soy sauce and miso, so double savoriness, freshly grated ginger, and there's lots of green onions. There's a little bit of white pepper, salt, sugar. It's very simple. You just mix it up and you form these little meatballs. I cook them in a pan so they get crispy around the edges, and then you put a lid on and just let them fully cook through for the last five minutes. Because I feel like with meatballs on the stovetop, you're always trying to make sure that they're cooked all the way through to the center, but they're so good.
I write in the book how there's no sauce. Some people get a little thrown off that there's no sauce or no dip for it, but they're so juicy and they're so flavorful that they almost create this really fatty coating. Those are two really popular ones right now.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned the tomato and rice dish-
Kristina Cho:
Oh, the tomato egg, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
... that you had at your parents that kickstarted all of this.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, I've seen that a few times as well. Probably one of the easiest recipes to make in the book. It's the very first recipe in the book, too.
Kerry Diamond:
What's in it?
Kristina Cho:
Tomatoes and egg. Tomato egg is a very homestyle Chinese recipe and everyone makes it a little bit different. It's become a polarizing recipe because everyone's like, "That's not how you do it. My mom makes it this way." I rarely see people make it the way that my parents do it. It's a very Cantonese style, I think, where you cook down the tomatoes almost into this jammy texture, and then you flavor it with oyster sauce, some white pepper, chili flake for a little bit of heat. And then you add a cornstarch slurry, so cornstarch and a little bit of water, so it thickens it up to have this glossy, silky texture. It's almost like gravy.
And then you whisk up some eggs in a separate bowl and you drizzle it over the top of the eggs. It's almost like shakshouka at this point. You drizzle the eggs over the tomatoes and don't touch it. You let it sit for a minute or two so that the eggs can just set up. You want some clumps in there. And then you take your spoon or spatula and then you rake it across the pan to create these bigger curdles of egg, and that's it. You top it with some green onions and you drape it over rice. It's so easy and one of the most comforting dishes.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my gosh. I do just want to go home and make all these things. Folks, you obviously have to pick up the cookbook. Let's talk about your Substack. We had Caroline Chambers on who's got, I think, the number one food and drink-
Kristina Cho:
Yes, I listened to that one. It was so inspiring.
Kerry Diamond:
It was like a masterclass on how to do a Substack. If you're Substack curious and you haven't listened to that, you need to go back into the archive.
But I'm curious because you're a methodical thinker thanks to that architecture background. What was your approach to Substack?
Kristina Cho:
To be honest, when I first started Substack, I was really figuring it out. I started my Substack I think almost a year ago. I started it because it just seemed like that's where media was going. I was really intrigued by it because I felt like it has an audience of people that actually like to read, that actually likes context and wants to know story, and also wants to read more about advice and tips.
At that time, I was struggling a little bit with the shift in social media. Some people don't like to read, don't like to know all the background information. They're like, "Just give me the food, make it look really good, and that's it." For someone like me, that's really hard. I like to provide the additional information around things, a whole view around a dish, even a really simple one.
I started my Substack, it's currently called Have You Eaten Yet, but before I had just called it Eat Cho Food. It was like an extension of my website, which I have left. I don't really work on the blog part of my website anymore, but all the recipes are still there. I look forward to sharing my weekly newsletter or my bonus one, but it started off as just Eat Cho Food newsletter.
A few months ago, I think it was earlier this year, I changed it to Have You Eaten Yet because I wanted to give it just a separate language and define it differently than my Instagram, where I share all different facets of my life.
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like that is a cookbook in your future. I'm looking into my crystal ball.
Kristina Cho:
Crystal ball, yes. That's what I see. I'm definitely keeping. I'm claiming it at least in newsletter form.
I changed my newsletter a little bit to give it more direction. I flail a little bit when I don't have direction. I'm just like, "I'm sharing." I was working on milk bread croissants, but then I also wanted to make weeknight recipes. I was just like, "I need direction."
And so Have You Eaten Yet is definitely more geared towards everyday cooking or breakfast, lunch and dinner type stuff. I think my big project cooking the croissants or a big cake, something like that, I reserve for maybe my books or just a different format to share that stuff. It doesn't need to live on the Substack.
But then I have this really fun once a month, I have the bun of the month, which is a way for me to keep my love of “Mooncakes and Milk Bread” going. Every month I share a new iteration of a bun or a baked good. Last month I share these chocolate milk bread donuts. There's also cardamom in it, and they had a brown butter glaze. I look forward to that one a lot. It's so much less pressure than when I was writing a book and making milk bread all the time. I can make it once a month and it's okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you comfortable saying how many paid folks you have versus unpaid?
Kristina Cho:
I only started paid subscriptions I think three months ago. I started off free for a long time, so-
Kerry Diamond:
Because?
Kristina Cho:
I wasn't ready, I think, to ask of people to pay me for stuff-
Kerry Diamond:
Because you weren't ready to commit to a timetable?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, I was just figuring out in the beginning. I was really figuring out my cadence. I think in the beginning I felt a lot of pressure to make sure I delivered something once a week, and I was still working on my book a little bit. I just wasn't ready to-
Kerry Diamond:
It's understandable.
Kristina Cho:
Ask that commitment from someone. People who pay, you're also supporting the writers that you love, and that's really important. But for me, I want to deliver something in exchange. I'm not just asking for people's money.
I started paid subscriptions I think two or three months ago, and it's slow growing. I have I think 300 paid subscribers, which is pretty good. I don't know. It's been really fun so far.
Kerry Diamond:
What Substacks do you read?
Kristina Cho:
Oh, I love Hetty McKinnon's Tenderheart. I love reading that one. I do read Caroline Chambers' Substack. I love Christina Chaey's Substack, Gentle Foods. I also follow a few fashion Substacks like the Molehill, which I really love. Those are some of my favorite ones.
Kerry Diamond:
My dream is to one day have a Substack reviewer because it's overwhelming. What's out there that's worth my time and my money, and what should I read this week?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, exactly. There's just so much of everything, so much content you had to filter through and really think about what is worth my time? What do I really care about?
Kerry Diamond:
We had Molly Yeh on the podcast, and we were talking about the overwhelm that we were all feeling. It's even worse today, but she called it the too muchery of everything, and I was like, "Oh, my God."
Kristina Cho:
That's cute. That's very Molly.
Kerry Diamond:
And I think about that all the time when I'm feeling overwhelmed by the millions of things that are out there now trying to grab our attention. I'm like, "Oh, that's the too muchery of everything."
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
One thing we've been asking everybody is about trusting their gut and learning to trust their gut. Do you feel like you've reached a point where you do trust your gut?
Kristina Cho:
I honestly feel like I've been trusting my gut for a really, really long time.
Kerry Diamond:
I knew you were going to say that. I got that sense from you.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, I have learned to really lean into it. It's really weird when I say this, but I feel like I'm a black sheep in my family because of this. I tend to take more risks and just go of what innately feels good with me.
The reason why I live in San Francisco now, I was in architecture grad school. I did one semester. I hated it so much, and I got an internship in San Francisco and I loved it so much. I just quit. I just felt this pull in San Francisco. I was like, "I think this is where I need to be," and I just left graduate school, figured out how to get a job out there, and made that work.
I followed my gut when my agent reached out to me. I didn't quit my job immediately after she was like, "I think you should write a cookbook." I took a few months to figure out my life. I remember the day I decided that I was going to quit my architecture job. It was Lunar New year 2019, and I took off work so that I could prep more food. I had all these people coming over to my apartment and I was just thinking, "I love this. I just love making food for people. I don't know how I'm going to survive making money doing this, but I just want to do this."
I remember a lot of our friends came over, some of my coworkers that were friends came over and they said the day I took off work was their annual promotion announcement day, that they do that as a surprise. I don't know why. They told me and I was like, "I don't care. I don't care that I wasn't there. I don't care I didn't get a promotion," did not bother me. I was like, "I want to quit my job." I told people at my party, I'm like, "I think I'm going to quit my job and just figure out how to do this, trust my gut, and really leaned into it." That decision, I think maybe it freaked out my parents, my husband a little bit was like, "Are you really ready?" But I just did it.
I feel that same way with my books. I like to write books that I wish I had in difficult times in my life before the Mooncake book. Super comforting, this “Chinese Enough” book, I wish I had that growing up when I felt all angsty and whatever and confused. I just follow my gut with these ideas and even if they're not mainstream or the popular concept. It feels good for me.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a motto or a mantra?
Kristina Cho:
It's going to be fine.
Kerry Diamond:
It goes along with the trusting your gut, right?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah. I don't know if that's catchy or quirky or whatever, but I say that all the time in a kind of exasperated way. I'm like, I'm tired. It's going to be fine. I've put all I can into it's going to be fine.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, let's do a speed round. What beverage do you start the morning with?
Kristina Cho:
My husband's coffee. My husband wakes up so early and he makes the coffee first thing in the morning. And then a few hours later I make my special latte, which I also look forward to.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about this special latte.
Kristina Cho:
It's not that special, but we got an espresso machine and I've been... I'm not addicted to coffee, but I'm addicted to the process of making my latte, and so right now I'm just making a salted maple cinnamon latte for fall.
Kerry Diamond:
Just that?
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, it's really easy. You just put the maple syrup in your cup with a little bit of salt and a dash of cinnamon and you just pour your shot. It's like the easiest thing. I'm not about making craft syrups. I just want to put everything in my cup.
Kerry Diamond:
What's always in your fridge?
Kristina Cho:
Eggs.
Kerry Diamond:
What's a treasured cookbook in your collection?
Kristina Cho:
I have this really interesting cookbook called “Grandma Grandpa Cook.” It's a Chinese cookbook that also is translated in English, so half the page is in English and half the page is in Chinese. It's such a cute little book I saw in the store, and I had to buy it.
It follows all of these grandparents. Some of them are in America, some of them are abroad, and they talk about this one dish that they really, really love. Some of the stories are really sad and some of them are really cute, but I love it. It's always on my shelf. I don't cook from it, but I like to look at it.
Kerry Diamond:
Since you're an architect and you do not have a cluttered kitchen, what is an appliance that is worth having in your kitchen and dedicating some space to?
Kristina Cho:
A dishwasher. I have never had a dishwasher in my life until now, so I'm one year into a dishwasher life and I think it has really changed my life and improve my mental health.
I used to get so upset looking at the pile of dishes that would pile up in my sink and be like, "I'm so tired. I can't do this." I think I was getting carpal tunnel for a little bit, and so I really value a great dishwasher.
Kerry Diamond:
The life-changing magic of a dishwasher, for sure. What was your favorite food as a kid?
Kristina Cho:
I'm going to go back to my time as a restaurant kid. My favorite snack as a kid was a freshly fried egg roll. I could go into the kitchen at any time and just ask for one. It was such a luxury.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned you have a snack section of your pantry. What's your favorite snack today?
Kristina Cho:
Right now, I'm obsessed with these sea moss coated peanuts by Woon. I did a restaurant pop-up in LA with Woon, and I was so excited to see their display on their peanuts because I was in love of them. I bought them at this cute little shop in the East Bay by my house, and they're so good.
I told Keegan, the chef at Woon, how when I was done with the bag, it's in a bag and all the sea moss is still stuck to the inside of the bag. I put in some Trader Joe's version of the little cheese doodles and you put it in the bag, shake it up, and then you have these nori-coated Cheetos. Cheese and nori works really well together, so that's maybe my second favorite snack.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you streaming these days?
Kristina Cho:
I'm watching “Monsters,” The Menendez Brothers.
Kerry Diamond:
Cheery.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, I'm watching that right now.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food film?
Kristina Cho:
One of our first projects in architecture school, I don't know why we did this, we watched “Babette's Feast.” Do you know that movie? Yeah, we watched “Babette's-”
Kerry Diamond:
That's an old movie.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, it's an old film. One of our first projects, we just went into the lecture hall, our entire architecture class watched “Babette's Feast,” and then our project afterwards was to draw a version of “Babette's Feast” in a different setting, I think.
I was like, "Huh, is this architecture school?" I don't know what we're doing right now, but I don't know why that movie came to mind. I was like, I should watch that again.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food smell?
Kristina Cho:
I love the smell of butter. Butter and sugar together. If you're making a caramel or if it's something baking in the oven, I love that. Or steamed jasmine rice, too.
Kerry Diamond:
Love that. Do you use a rice cooker?
Kristina Cho:
I don't.
Kerry Diamond:
Just a pot?
Kristina Cho:
Just a pot. I had a rice cooker maybe seven years ago. It had a glass top and a can of beans fell on top of it and shattered, and I just never bought one again. But now I love making rice in a pot. It's just second nature to me.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, last question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Kristina Cho:
Oh my God, I feel like has to be someone really helpful.
Kerry Diamond:
You're a smart girl.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah. Someone who can cook with fire maybe. I don't know. I was thinking like Elizabeth Poett, for some reason.
Kerry Diamond:
Elizabeth can cook on fire.
Kristina Cho:
Someone that's really useful who can cook on fire, knows what's growing out in the land.
Kerry Diamond:
In a ranch.
Kristina Cho:
Yeah, exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, that's smart. It's always interesting to see who people pick. It's like are they thinking practically? Are they thinking about someone they just want to have a fun conversation with?
Kristina Cho:
Oh yeah, I immediately went to survival. I was like, "I want to live. I want to eat."
Kerry Diamond:
Again, goes back to trust your gut. People should probably pick you to be on the island with. Amazing.
Kristina Cho:
Funny question.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, Kristina, it's so nice to see you and have you on the show for the first time. The whole team and I are so thrilled for you and all your success.
Kristina Cho:
Oh, thank you. I'm so honored to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and to review. Anyone you want to hear on an upcoming episode? Let me know. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is a studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Thank you to CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu, our content operations manager is Londyn Crenshaw, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening everybody. You are the Bombe.