Marissa Mullen Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe magazine. Each week, I talk to the most interesting culinary folks around.
Joining me in the studio today is Marissa Mullen, one of my favorite folks and Cherry Bombe's queen of all things cheese. A few years ago while working on The Late Show With Stephen Colbert, Marissa became obsessed with making cheese plates and found she was quite good at it. She told Stephen she was leaving to focus on fromage, I wish I could have eavesdropped on that conversation, and went on to become a hit on social media under the name That Cheese Plate. Fast-forward to now and Marissa's a full-fledged cheese authority and her second book will be out tomorrow. It's called That Cheese Plate Wants To Party and she is here to tell us all about it.
Speaking of party, our Jubilee conference is this coming weekend, OMG, and we are so excited. We have amazing talent joining us, including Joanna Gaines of Magnolia, Molly Baz, Top Chef winner Melissa King, and everyone's fave, Sophia Roe. We've got book signings with folks like Molly, Marissa, and Natasha Pickowicz, Maya-Camille Broussard all the way from Chicago, and Dingding Hu. Also of course, beautiful food and drink all day long. Tickets are sold out, but you can join the waiting list at cherrybombe.com.
I'm thrilled that Whole Foods Market is returning as our partner. Whole Foods Market has supported all of our New York City Jubilee conferences since our very first one in 2014. One of the things I admire about Whole Foods Market is they are partnering with Amazon to cut food waste in half by 2030. So this year, Whole Foods Market is bringing its sustainability message to life at Jubilee in several ways. I have a special guest here to tell us more. It's Jaimee Rondeau, Senior Marketing Team Leader at Whole Foods Market. Hi, Jaimee.
Jaimee Rondeau:
Hi, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
How are you?
Jaimee Rondeau:
I'm great. Thanks for having me here.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you tell us about Nourishing Our Neighborhoods, one of Whole Foods Market's community sustainability programs?
Jaimee Rondeau:
Of course. It's a program that Whole Foods Market launched in 2020. We provided over 30 refrigerated vans to community-based food rescue organizations across the United States and Canada. Because of those vans, 277 million meals have the potential to be delivered to families in need over the next decade. One of these vans will be parked outside of Jubilee and will be collecting extra food from the conference. Additionally, each van has the potential to recover 20,000 pounds of food per week from various sources, including Whole Foods Market locations, and they help divert 33 million pounds of food per year from landfills.
Kerry Diamond:
You're bringing some sustainability partners to Jubilee as well, right? Tell me about them.
Jaimee Rondeau:
We are. We'll have the founders of Chia Smash jams and the Matriark Foods pasta sauces there. They're both female-founded companies and use upcycled ingredients, which we know your attendees will appreciate.
Kerry Diamond:
That is for sure.
Jaimee Rondeau:
Also, Rethink Foods, which has donated 10 million meals to date sustainably and equitably will be there as well and as someone Whole Foods Market works with.
Kerry Diamond:
For those listeners coming to Jubilee, definitely stop by and say hi to the Whole Foods Market team, including Jaimee. Try some great food and learn more about their community and sustainability programs. For those not coming to Jubilee, you can learn more at wholefoodsmarket.com\missioninaction\environmentalstewardship. I know that's a long URL, so the link is in our show notes. Look for Chia Smash jams and Matriark Foods pasta sauces at your local Whole Foods Market. Jaimee, thank you for your time and I can't wait to see you.
Jaimee Rondeau:
Can't wait to see you too, Kerry. Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Now here's today's guest. Marissa Mullen, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Marissa Mullen:
Thank you so much. It's actually pretty nostalgic to be in this building at Rockefeller Center because my first internship almost 10 years ago was at Jimmy Fallon, and it was Late Night With Jimmy Fallon into The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. It was my first ever internship in late night TV, which led to the next chapter of my career, which then led to cheese. Being in this building just brings back so many memories of that, which is so cool.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought I knew so much about you, but I did not know about that. Were you a page or straight up intern?
Marissa Mullen:
Straight up intern, music intern. Worked for The Roots and for all of the guest bands on the show.
Kerry Diamond:
So cool.
Marissa Mullen:
It was amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to know when you're going to combine cheese and music. That's what I'm waiting for.
Marissa Mullen:
In the new book, I am.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, we will get to that. You've got your cheese plate empire now.
Marissa Mullen:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
It's amazing what you've built.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. Yeah. The past few years have been all over the place. When I quit my job in music, all I had was the book deal for my first book and I was doing some sponsored content on Instagram. I started my cheese classes at the time, but I didn't really know exactly where I wanted this business to go. Luckily, with the success of the first book, I've just been doing so many different things all over the place, which has been great. A lot more on social media, doing brands with different collaborations. I did a Goldbelly pre-order shippable cheese board all last year, which was super fun. I traveled to Europe and got to visit a bunch of dairy farms, which was amazing. I called it Cheese, Pray, Love, and I made a merch line with hats and it was this whole experience, which was the best. Every day is truly different.
I think in 2020, it was this big growth of the charcuterie trend on TikTok, which definitely helped my brand really grow a lot. But while that happened, there's probably 10,000 Instagram accounts of charcuterie boards and cheese plates that popped up as well. So it really made a imprint on culture in a crazy way. The last three years, there's just been so many different opportunities that have been so much fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I'm so happy to hear that because I love what you do and you have a new book.
Marissa Mullen:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what it's all about and how it's different from your last book.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. It's called That Cheese Plate Wants To Party. The whole idea is that parties aren't just a physical act, they're a mindset. So if you're in the mood to celebrate life, anything can be a party, but with cheese as the focus, of course. In the book, there are personal plates for one to two people. There are grazing tables for a big party. There's themed plates like for a bachelorette party or for the holidays. Then there's also these things that I call mood boards. Essentially, they are cheese plates that dictate a mood for a party. So there's one that's that golden hour plate, which is the mood of the sunset and everyone's getting ready to go out. There's another one called that wind down plate, which is at the end of the day, you just want a glass of wine and hang out and chill.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I got to wind down, okay.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, wind down. When I throw a party, I always like to think about the food first versus the color scheme or the florals because everyone gravitates-
Kerry Diamond:
Or the guest list?
Marissa Mullen:
... towards the food. Yeah, before the guest list too, I think about the food, specifically the cheese plate because in my opinion, I think cheese plates, they spark conversation, they tell a story, they're full of so many pairings, and when anyone walks into my house for a party, they gravitate towards the plate itself. So that being said, I plan parties from the plate and work outwards. In the book, with each cheese plate, I have a color palette associated to the cheese plate. With that, you can dictate your florals and your linens and your tablescape design. Then with each plate we have something called a bite builder, so it tells you exactly what to pair on the cheese plate for the ultimate flavor pairing. Then I also have a musical playlist that's associated to each plate in the book to you could just put it on and it puts you in the mood of the plate itself.
For the wind down playlist, it's all soothing, piano, classical, just puts you in this relaxing state. So that's where I combine my past of music with cheese to-
Kerry Diamond:
Ah, there we go.
Marissa Mullen:
... curate a whole experience.
Kerry Diamond:
This book was born during the pandemic. Is that why you chose to do something celebratory?
Marissa Mullen:
I think it came from a lot of different sources of inspiration. Growing up, my parents were avid entertainers and they would have parties all the time. I would always be on appetizer, cheese plate duty because I loved making these spreads at a young age. A lot of this book mentions my parents and my inspiration from them. Every summer, we would have big barbecues, and my dad, he coined the term appe dog, which is an appetizer hotdog, which is very extra and super gluttonous, but in the book, I have the hot grill summer plate featuring hotdogs as an appetizer.
Kerry Diamond:
An appetizer hot dog. How does that differ from pigs in blankets?
Marissa Mullen:
It's a full size hot dog with toppings. You just have that maybe about two hours before the burgers come out and it's the appe dog.
Kerry Diamond:
That's opposed to the hot dog as a main course?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, we have it as the appetizer. I don't know really where it started, but it was just born out of these frequent parties that we would have.
Kerry Diamond:
All respect to your father, I'm not sure the appetizer hotdog is going to sweep the nation, but-
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, I'm not sure-
Kerry Diamond:
... you know what? Weirder things have happened.
Marissa Mullen:
It's true.
Kerry Diamond:
Has he presented this to the TikTok community yet?
Marissa Mullen:
He's on Instagram, but he hasn't hit TikTok yet, so maybe with the book, I'll get him on there to talk about the appe dog. So yeah, I grew up being around a lot of entertaining and in college, That Cheese Plate was actually born because I would have wine and cheese parties with my friends and we always would call it the cheese party because it would be like, I'd have a bunch of cheese. I'd make these cheese plates. People would come over and we would just sit and eat cheese for hours and it was the best. Once I graduated college, that moved to New York City and these parties became bigger and more elaborate and we'd invite friends of friends and wine bottles and cheese galore. I just always loved the fact that all of us would be off our phones, conversation around the table, around the cheese plate and the cheese plate truly was always the center of the conversation.
In COVID when we were all having to isolate and not be together, it was really hard because most of my social life revolved around these cheese parties. I would invite all my friends over because obviously, this is my job. I have an excess of cheese in my house all the time, so my way of offloading this cheese would be to serve it to my friends at cheese parties. In COVID, it was just one of those things where after the world started opening up again, I was like, man, I feel like we need to write about the essence and how to have a cheese party, because I feel like once you can understand how easy it is and how you can really set a different mood or theme for anything based on the cheese pairings itself, it just opens up this whole world that I feel like can't truly be described with other food items.
Kerry Diamond:
I love so much in your book, but one of the things I really love and smiled when I saw it was you have a birthday cake made out of cheese wheels.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
It's the perfect solution for a birthday celebrant who does not have a sweet tooth. You can make a mini one or you can make a big one.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. The key, in my opinion, my favorite type of cheesecake is soft-ripened cheese. Brie, Camembert, you can do a soft-ripened goat cheese. Humboldt Fog is a really good one for that. You essentially just stack them on top of each other from the biggest to the smallest to resemble a cake, and you can garnish it with anything you want. You can do a savory one, garnishing it with prosciutto or olives or cornichons. I did one recently that I garnished with fresh fruit and honey and then served it alongside with fresh bread and crackers. The opportunities are endless. The best part too is that you can just stick a little candle on the top and light it and it's essentially a birthday cake.
Kerry Diamond:
There you go. So if a traditional cake is not for you, there you go.
Marissa Mullen:
It's the cheesecake, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
The cheesecake.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, that cheesecake.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your book tour because you can actually go on tour this time, Marissa.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, my gosh. I know. It's crazy. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You have some fun parties planned.
Marissa Mullen:
I do, yeah. My whole vision, it's funny, for the first book, I wanted to do something similar to this. It was before the cheese party book was born, but just the idea of throwing a cheese party. I did a few before the pandemic and they were both astrology themed, so I had this whole concept called astrolocheese and we made a grazing table with different zodiac signs, with different cheese pairings, and it was just a really fun way to curate this experience with cheese and with my other interests and then invite people just to come have a good time. I remember we had one in Boston and it ended up with a whole dance party sing-along like Whitney Houston. It was amazing. It was just all of these people coming together, eating cheese and having a great time. I wanted to repeat that for the second book, but then COVID happened. Everything got canceled, and now at this book, I was like, okay, we're doing it. We're going to plan the cheese party tour. It's going to happen.
It's funny because when you write a book, a lot of people don't know or don't tell you that a publishing company doesn't necessarily help with a book tour. They'll provide books and they'll make sure if you want to do a signing somewhere, or in my case, I have a venue that I booked. My team will make sure that we are sourcing books from an independent bookseller. They're great in that aspect, but in terms of something like this, they were like, okay, it's all you. Go for it. It is funny because coming from a background in music business and event production and touring in general, this is second nature to me. It's been pretty fun to be able to coordinate it, but I can imagine someone who does not have that background. It's a lot. You just don't even know where to start.
I was telling a friend the other day, I'm like, I think there's a gap in the market of a cookbook tour coordinator job, company agency to help cookbook authors go on these cool tours because with something with cheese plates, they are so celebratory and the book is so celebratory that I don't want to just go do a signing and chat. I want to have an interactive experience. That being said, because I'm doing it myself, I'm releasing these dates in waves because I don't want to burn out. I'll start small. But the thing with a cookbook is you can just promote it as long as you want. It's not like an album. It has a longer shelf life. The tour starts April 15th is the first date in New York City at Talea Beer Company-
Kerry Diamond:
Jubilee day. We're so happy.
Marissa Mullen:
... to Jubilee day. It's going to be so much fun. I'm making the theme floral disco, so there's going to be disco balls and flowers. We're doing this massive grazing table with a DIY cheese plate station. We're doing Talea Beer and cheese pairings.
Kerry Diamond:
We should say Talea Beer. They're good friends of Cherry Bombe's, the only female-owned and run tap room and brewery in New York City.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. Then I'm doing pre-book launch workshop. This is my two-hour intensive DIY, how to build a cheese board class at Pine & Polk, which is another female-owned restaurant and provision shop in New York City. It's just been so much fun to find all these different venues to work with because I'm doing one at a place called Alisal Ranch in California. It's a dude ranch, which is out there, and doing one at Lady & Larder, another female-owned cheese shop I love in Santa Monica.
Kerry Diamond:
We love Lady & Larder.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, so I'm really excited.
Kerry Diamond:
Tickets are on sale right now for some of these.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, tickets are on sale for I think about seven, eight of them. Just go to thatcheeseplate.com and you'll see it right there.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Did you know that Cherry Bombe has a print magazine? We do, and it's all about women and food just like our podcast. We just added annual subscriptions so you can get four issues of our print magazine sent directly to your home. If you've never seen Cherry Bombe, it's one of the most beautiful magazines around. It's printed on lush paper with gorgeous full color photographs and contains great profiles, features, and recipes from your favorite culinary creatives. We proudly print our magazine in Rhode Island with an independent family-owned printing company that works with some of the most amazing galleries and book companies around. We have a special subscription offer right now, so visit cherrybombe.com for more. If you own a shop and would like to carry Cherry Bombe, we also have wholesale options on our site. Our latest issue, by the way, is our 10th anniversary issue, so I would love for you to check it out. Now back to our guest. Let's talk about what you've been loving lately. Any new cheese discoveries?
Marissa Mullen:
I had the opportunity, again with Cheese, Pray, Love, to go to Europe last summer. This was actually a trip I planned on my own and it wasn't associated with any dairy farms. I went with my friends and it was just something that I really wanted to do and just go back to Europe. I've been to Europe a few times when I worked in music with Jon Batiste, but never as my cheese profession. What better place to go find inspiration than Italy, France, and Portugal. As I went, I was like, wait, I need to take advantage of this and reach out to these dairy producers that I've had online relationships with, but never got to meet in person. I went to Sardinia, which is the most magical island, and I met with Central Formaggi, which is a dairy producer there. They make one of the most amazing truffle pecorino cheeses. The whole experience, I wish I had a film camera there with me because I felt like Stanley Tucci on Searching for Italy.
It was the most beautiful landscape and they were so generous and sweet. They were so excited to have me there. We did a whole tour of the facility and then got in our car and drove 40 minutes north to a dairy farm. And there was this woman, Rosanna, who owns this dairy farm with her husband. They've owned it for 40 years. They were the nicest people. They had us in their house. They were giving us grappa and wine and whatever we want like coffee. We did a whole tour of the sheep farm, got to meet the sheep. It just shows how much love and care goes into the cheese that is being made. It's not just this factory that's pumping out these cheeses. It's like a history for over a hundred years or more than that in Sardinia to make this pecorino and to make it with such artisanal craftmanship, and you can taste that in the cheese itself. So that's been one of my recent favorites. They sell it in America as well, so we've been doing some collaborations there.
Kerry Diamond:
You just reminded me of this. I actually had friends years ago, maybe over 10 years ago, got married and they had, instead of cutting into a wedding cake, they cut into a giant wheel of pecorino.
Marissa Mullen:
That is amazing. That'll be my wedding one day.
Kerry Diamond:
You need to put these tours together so other people can do them.
Marissa Mullen:
It's funny. Well, so-
Kerry Diamond:
Funny you say that.
Marissa Mullen:
Funny you say. With Cheese, Pray, Love, I did a bunch of travel guides on my website. If you go to thatcheeseplate.com and look at my blog, you can find what I did in Sardinia, Rome, Tuscany, Porto, Lisbon, but I'm in early conversations with a company to host a travel tour in Italy next year.
Kerry Diamond:
Fun.
Marissa Mullen:
We're not sure Italy yet, somewhere in Europe.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. So stay tuned for that because it's in the works.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds so dreamy. I would love to do that. What about crackers? There is a whole world of crackers out there. I'd love to know what crackers you love, but I would also love to know, is there a Marissa Mullen of crackers?
Marissa Mullen:
Ooh. Well, I do love Rustic Bakery. They are some of my favorite crackers. I was just in San Francisco visiting my brother and I stopped at the Rustic Bakery in Marin and the food there is amazing too, but they've always been some of my all-time favorite crackers. The Marissa Mullen of crackers, I don't really know. Are there any cracker influencers out there who want to collab?
Kerry Diamond:
There are a lot of crackers named after women, which I find so interesting. Lesley Stowe's crackers,-
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, yes. Oh, those are great.
Kerry Diamond:
... have you had those?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, I love those.
Kerry Diamond:
Aren't those great?
Marissa Mullen:
I love any type of fruit and nut crisp. I just had the Meredith Dairy marinated goat and feta cheese and spreading that on a fig and almond cracker, delectable.
Kerry Diamond:
Mary's Crackers, Mary's Gone Crackers.
Marissa Mullen:
Love Mary's Gone Crackers. They're great. Firehook, love them.
Kerry Diamond:
And there was a real Mary behind that. I think she sold it, but-
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, no way.
Kerry Diamond:
... there was a real Mary.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, my gosh.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, there is a real Mary. I think she's still around.
Marissa Mullen:
I know, yeah. I'm ready for the cracker influencer to come out. Let's collab. Hit me up.
Kerry Diamond:
Fruit and veg. Tell me some fruit and veg that you love to put on a cheese board or a cheese plate.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. With cheese, I always love to pair dried fruits, which is great because all year round, you can find dried fruits. It's very accessible. So dried figs and dried apricots are some favorites for cheese plates. I also love cucumbers on cheese plates, so I put them on a lot of my different creations. Cucumbers and radishes, because I feel like cheese and meat are very savory. They're fatty, they're salty, and you want something that's the complete opposite to cleanse your palate. So a cucumber is a great in-between cheese bite for a palate cleanser. Then I love radishes on any sort of creamy, decadent Camembert, Brie. That's always one of my favorites.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what's also great about a cucumber, we were at Poole's diner in Raleigh, North Carolina, Ashley Christensen's restaurant, and someone we were dining with was gluten-free. When we ordered the pimento cheese on the chicken liver moose, they sent out an extra plate of cucumbers-
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
... so folks could use that as the cracker.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. 12 Chairs does that in New York with their hummus. It's the best.
Kerry Diamond:
And it was so fantastic. I was like, oh, this is really brilliant. You don't feel like you're missing out on anything. I just loved it as a cheese vehicle.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, yes. And also, you can make a quick pickle. I actually accidentally went viral on TikTok making a pickle plate, and it was just essentially... The weirdest things go viral on TikTok. I did not expect this to go anywhere.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, you need to explain this. How did you go accidentally viral with a pickle plate?
Marissa Mullen:
There was a meme that I saw on Twitter and it said a charcuterie board, but fully made of pickles, which that's a whole another conversation about the term charcuterie, but we won't go there right now. It was just a picture of a really crappy paper plate with some dill pickles on it. I thought to myself, you know what? I'm going to make this but a little bit more elevated. So I got a shallow bowl, which I'm really into the shallow bowls right now, and I bought a variety of pickles from the store. I got half sours, I got garlic, I bought bread and butter, all different shapes and sizes and just arranged it on this platter and garnished it with fresh dill and made a TikTok about it and it got two million views. I'm like, okay, maybe I'll just quit my job doing cheese and just do pickles for now on.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what else I noticed you're loving these days? Dips.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, I am loving dips.
Kerry Diamond:
You're going through a dip phase, I noticed.
Marissa Mullen:
I am. I feel like I'm forever in a dip phase, but more so recently. They're just so versatile and especially for parties. It's easier than a cheese plate. You can just make a dip, put it out, but also in accompaniment to a cheese plate. You can have your cheese spread and then you can have your dip next to it with a bunch of different garnishes and dippers all around. I've been loving a variety of whipped feta dip, whipped goat cheese. I did a black bean dip. I also did something that I called a decorative dip, which essentially is your normal dip, but then you can garnish it like you would a cheese plate. I did this fun one. It was whipped feta and I did Greek salad toppings that I arranged in almost like a river formation and garnished with edible flowers. It's just, again, bringing people's focal point to the food itself at the party. When someone sees something like that, they get so excited. Lady & Larder does an amazing job at garnishing dips and I get a lot of inspiration from them.
Kerry Diamond:
I love dips.
Marissa Mullen:
They're the best.
Kerry Diamond:
If there's a dip on the menu, it's hard for me not to order it. How about on the beverage front? What are you pairing with cheese these days?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. In my new book, I have a drink section, which is super exciting. The last book did not have this. I almost treat it like a potluck. I asked all of my friends in the cheese community to give me their favorite cheese pairing and drink recipe. I have one from a friend. Her name's Cortney LaCorte and she goes by cheesegal on Instagram. She made this dirty martini that had these blue cheese-stuffed olives. It's one of the best dirty martinis I've had. So that's in the book. We have my friend, Madame Fromage. She does a bijou, which is a gin-based cocktail, and that was paired with a botanical goat cheese. We have mocktails in the book, so there's cocktails that you can also make into a mocktail.
I've been really into the cocktail pairings with cheese, which everyone knows wine and cheese. I think that it's really fun to play with different mixers, different fruity drinks that you can pair with different cheeses, and with cocktails, there's just so many different flavor profiles you can play with. And beer and cider.
Kerry Diamond:
That's true.
Marissa Mullen:
Beer and cider are amazing cheese pairings because the bubbles in the beer and cider, they cleanse your palate in between creamy bites. That's a good option as well.
Kerry Diamond:
And so many interesting beers these days made by women like we talked about-
Marissa Mullen:
Yes, especially Talea's.
Kerry Diamond:
... our friends in Talea.
Marissa Mullen:
There's so many.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. On a serious note, you dedicate your new book to Anne Saxelby.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you tell us who Anne was and why you dedicated the book to her?
Marissa Mullen:
She is an icon. She was the first person to really popularize artisanal cheese making in the US and did a beautiful job at finding all these small batch artisanal cheesemakers and opening a cheese shop called Saxelby Cheese in New York and featuring all these amazing American made cheeses. She sadly passed away and I want to dedicate this book to her because she was always so kind and welcoming. For me, not coming from a world of cheese, I always felt very intimidated and felt like I had imposter syndrome being someone who worked in music and then now is in this whole vast world of cheese. Anne always answered every question I had. We did a collaborative workshop where we made a meat-free cheese plate when I was doing meatless March in 2021. She came on and talked all about Saxelby Cheese and we made a cheese plate together. Then I did an article for Food52 about the history of cheddar and she weighed in with all her expertise.
Anyone who knows her, who knew her would say the same. She entered every room with a smile on her face. She just was full of so much joy and passion for what she did. That is the essence of parties, joy and passion. I wanted to dedicate this book to her because she really helped me find my way through this world of cheese.
Kerry Diamond:
I was so happy to see that. That was such a big loss last year. I think Anne was only 40.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, she was young.
Kerry Diamond:
She's always been someone we admired. We had her husband Patrick Martins on the show to talk about the Anne Saxelby Legacy Fund, which he and Anne's family and friends have started up. So for those of you who knew Anne and want to keep her legacy going, you should check out the Legacy Fund. They're doing some amazing work.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. And there's also a URL in my book at the end, the Legacy Fund if you want to check that out.
Kerry Diamond:
Great. Anne had her legendary cheese shop here in New York City, like you said, Saxelby Cheese. It was such a gateway for so many people to these beautiful indie cheeses.
Marissa Mullen:
And still running, still operating.
Kerry Diamond:
And still running, absolutely. They're down at Chelsea Market for folks who want to check them out. So speaking of cheese shops, there's so many great ones today.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, my gosh, so many.
Kerry Diamond:
Asking you to shout out a few cheese shops, I feel like, is almost unfair, but are there any that you particularly love that you would like to turn the audience onto?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. I live in Greenpoint. In Greenpoint alone, there's so many cheese shops. There's Monger's Palate. There is Eastern District. There's even Big Night which opened and they have a cheese fridge, which is always great in a pinch because it's right down the street from me. I'm also big fan of Bedford Cheese. Ladies there are amazing. There's Campbell Cheese & Grocery in Brooklyn. There's so many. We're so lucky here in New York. There's just some amazing places. On the West Coast though, I love Lady & Larder. They're one of my favorites. I'm so excited to do an event there because the way that they present their cheese and if you follow them on Instagram, you can see they go on these field trips to dairy farms and they really make a big deal about shopping local and sustainable California grown produce and cheese. Big shout out to them. They're one of my favorites.
Kerry Diamond:
I have to give a shout-out to Mingle + Graze in an unexpected place, Chandler, Arizona. There are cheese shops everywhere, so of course,-
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, everywhere.
Kerry Diamond:
... they have them out in the desert. We love that shop and have visited, and Lady & Larder. They are amazing. Let's talk careers for a little bit. You have the distinction of being the only person to quit on Stephen Colbert to go make cheese boards.
Marissa Mullen:
Wow. That's true. That's true.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us that story.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. I started this Instagram, That Cheese Plate, back in 2014, so long time ago.
Kerry Diamond:
It has been that long?
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. Or I think it was 2013. This might be my 10-year anniversary, which is nuts.
Kerry Diamond:
We can celebrate that. It's Cherry Bombe's 10-year anniversary.
Marissa Mullen:
I know. Oh, my gosh. Look at that.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll have a party together at some point this year.
Marissa Mullen:
Jubilee. Yes. This Instagram was always just something that's been part of my life since college and it was always something that I just did for fun. My main passion and what I studied in college was music business and communications. Again, started my internship experience at Fallon and that led me to The Late Show With Stephen Colbert, where I worked for four years. I was Jon Batiste's personal assistant and then morphed into his creative director, tour manager, kind of wore all hats there. As that was happening, my hours were very long and when I did have time off, making a cheese plate and having a cheese party was what really grounded me and brought me together with my friends. So it inspired me to make more content for my Instagram that was original content. When I first started the Instagram, it was just a place to find inspiration from Pinterest and Tumblr and anywhere I could find cheese plates and put it in one place. Then I started posting my own creations. I got over my fear of putting myself out there and it ended up growing.
What I did is I took my experience in artist management. I needed to make this brand a logo and a merch store and teach classes and just create more of a cohesive feel around it. That coincided with this growth of charcuterie boards and this trend that started happening in 2019. So I wrote a proposal for a cookbook and pitched it with an agent, pitched it to about 25 different publishers in 2018 and everyone rejected it because I didn't have enough press or followers at the time. At the time, I didn't quit my job yet in music, so I was like, all right, whatever. I'll just keep that on the back burner. But I did make another account called Cheese By Numbers to save this idea that both of the books, if you go through the book, you can see that every single cheese plate has a illustrated, what I call Cheese By Numbers map and then a step-by-step guide of how to build it, so it's super easy to make.
This account that I made, The Rachael Ray Show happened to find it and it blew up and out of the woodwork, I got a book deal from The Dial Press at Random House, which I couldn't pass up and decided to leave Stephen Colbert for it, which I don't regret it. I think I'm so happy with my decision. I do miss the crew there and everyone was amazing. I do sometimes miss working in that late night energy. We got to go to the Emmy's. We got to do a lot of really cool stuff in entertainment, but what's better than working in cheese every day? It's been a dream.
Kerry Diamond:
How did Stephen Colbert take the news?
Marissa Mullen:
He was so sweet about it. Yeah, very understanding. I need to actually send him the second book because I sent him the first one and he loved it, which is great.
Kerry Diamond:
Colbert sounds like a cheese. Someone needs to make a cheese in honor of him.
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. Colby Colbert sounds like Colby, Colby-Jack.
Kerry Diamond:
There could be a Colbert cheese for all we know.
Marissa Mullen:
Right?
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I guess you would know if there was a cheese with that name. Few nerdy influencer things, I would like to talk about just because I think people still have so many questions about how influencers-
Marissa Mullen:
So do I.
Kerry Diamond:
... do what they do. Do you have a team?
Marissa Mullen:
No. Well, for my direct team of That Cheese Plate, it's pretty much just me. I create all my own content. I do all my own social media planning and all of that.
Kerry Diamond:
What platform do you use-
Marissa Mullen:
I have Instagram.
Kerry Diamond:
... for your 8,000 Instagram accounts?
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, yes. Just Instagram. I-
Kerry Diamond:
You do have four Instagram accounts, right?
Marissa Mullen:
Yes. I have That Cheese Plate, which is the main one. I have Cheese By Numbers, which is your swipe to build step by step account. I have That Cheese Class, which tells you all about my classes and parties. Then I have Marissa Mullen, which is my personal account.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't even handle one. What are those platforms you use? We use Later.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, yeah. I just use Instagram.
Kerry Diamond:
Really?
Marissa Mullen:
I know. I'm really making it hard for myself.
Kerry Diamond:
They now have functionality where you can schedule your post ahead. Are you using that or not even?
Marissa Mullen:
Not even. I'll wake up-
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Marissa Mullen:
... in the morning and be like, I want to do this today. I think the good thing about my work ethic is that I can make content very quickly. Yesterday, I woke up and I was like, I want to do a whipped goat cheese and I banged it out in three hours and posted it that day. So I am a little of the moment with my content.
Kerry Diamond:
Does that feel good or is that something you want to change?
Marissa Mullen:
Last fall, I was going away for three weeks and I wanted to bank a ton of content before I left so I didn't have to focus so much on it, and it was amazing because I had all these posts scheduled. I felt so relaxed and I was like, you know what? In 2023, I'm going to try to do this. I'm going to bank all this content. Then I went to L.A. and I did not have ample natural light in my Airbnb, which is very important to making content. So I got thrown off a little bit of my normal groove. It's so hard with social media because the algorithms are ever-changing. They want you to be consistent, but of course if you're traveling, you can't be. Then if you fall off your consistency, your views aren't as high as they used to be. It took me a while. I still deal with this all the time, but it takes a while to not correlate views and like some comments with your own personal creativity and your self-worth.
I'll post a video that I'm super excited about and it just won't hit the algorithm and it won't get as many views as I'm used to and I'm like, I'm trash. This is trash. It gets so mental because it's one of the only things that can give you instant validation in a number form for your creative process, which is pretty messed up and not healthy. So I've been trying to reframe my relationship with social media as being almost this dumpster of creativity. If I want to post it, just post it. Don't look at it. Don't look at the numbers until 24 hours later because what's the difference between refreshing your screen now versus looking at it tomorrow?
I actually have two cell phones. I have one that has no service and it just has Wi-Fi. It's my social media phone. It has Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. At the end of the workday, I will turn it off and I'll put it in my office and not touch it until the next day. So on my normal phone, I just have texting and calling and email. So that's been helping a lot just to separate work and life.
Kerry Diamond:
That's smart if you can do that. You're active on TikTok. A lot of folks in our community agonize over TikTok because they're not on there. I think it's a combination of they don't have the time, they're not sure what content would resonate.
Marissa Mullen:
For sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Any words of advice?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. I think TikTok is even more complicated than Instagram in my opinion just because I started on Instagram, so I know what my audience likes on there and I know the types of videos to post that will perform better than others. TikTok, again, this pickle plate went viral. I did not expect that at all. The weirdest things do well on there. It's even worse on TikTok for me because a lot of creators that I know are feeling the same way. People who had success with TikTok in 2020, 2021, for some reason, videos now, the views are tanking. There's some people who are crushing it on TikTok, Justine Snacks, shout out. She does an amazing job on TikTok. But for me, I think it's a combination of A, not being consistent, again, B, not necessarily making content for the trends that are happening in the moment because I just want to do my own thing.
I really don't love following viral recipe trends. I think it's a cheap way to get likes and comments and the original creator always gets lost in the process and other people capitalize off it. So I try to stay away from that, but because I do that, I feel like my recipes don't really hit that high amount of views. Another same thing with Instagram, it's one day you'll get two million views, one day you'll get 2,000. You really can't use TikTok for building a brand. It's great for discoverability. So if you want someone to find your brand and then go to your website or then go to your Instagram, it's useful, but I think nowadays, because it's so oversaturated, there's so many people making content, it's really hard to build a community on there that feels like you can turn over book sales or anything like that.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm still an Instagram superfan.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, me too. I used to actually really love TikTok in 2020 and back in the pandemic, I had so much fun with it, but again, it's exhausting to create a video, spend so much time editing, filming, creating a video to then not have it even break 3,000 views, which might seem a lot for some people, but for my amount of followers, it's not even 1%.
Kerry Diamond:
And I'm still very pro-photo.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, me too. And Instagram actually, I think, is bringing back more engagement for photos, which is great.
Kerry Diamond:
It's hard to share videos sometimes. We share a lot of things that folks in our community put out there. Yeah, you can do a story with a video, but it's really hard to snag a video, put it on your feed. I worry about all these people who put so much pressure on themselves to make videos.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. I think this has been talked about, but I will continue to talk about it. The mental health toll that it takes to create content is a lot for so many people because you're constantly comparing yourself to others. You're constantly comparing your metrics to others. It takes a lot of self-confidence and it takes a lot of just trusting your gut. I think for me, I've been dealing with this journey on social media for a while, but full-time for three years now and it's been a roller coaster. I think at the end of the day, what always makes me feel happy and content is that if I am doing something that truly is authentic to me, something I'm excited about, something that is creative and I post it, it doesn't matter how many views it will get because I did that for myself and because I know that my community or I hope my community would like it. But the problem with it is that your community might love your content, it just wouldn't show up in their feed, so they never saw it.
And remember that it's us versus the machines. We're literally living in the matrix and try to not take things so personally. Just don't follow the trends. Don't follow what everyone else is doing just to get more views. It's quality over quantity.
Kerry Diamond:
You be you.
Marissa Mullen:
You be you.
Kerry Diamond:
The folks who follow that I think have done well in many cases.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Speaking of Justine Snacks, I loved your podcast interview with Justine Snacks. Is your pod coming back?
Marissa Mullen:
We're on a hiatus, extended hiatus. Leslie, my co-host, Leslie Mosier, she is the proud owner of Doug the pug, who is the world's most famous pug. She's working on a dog hair care line, so dog shampoos and conditioners. Shout out.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sorry to laugh. Dogs do need shampoo.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. So that will be announcing soon. She's also working on an animated series for him. I have the book and the book tour. We didn't say that we're going to end it, we just are trying to find time. Again with a podcast, you have to be consistent as well.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, there's going to be an animated series?
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah, they're working on pitching it.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that.
Marissa Mullen:
Yeah. So that will be really fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Who doesn't love a pug?
Marissa Mullen:
I know. She's such an inspiration to me. On our podcast episodes, we talk a lot about the vulnerabilities of content creation. I think she was one of the first pioneers of Instagram and how to build a brand on there. The fact that she's taking it further now with all of these different projects is so much fun to watch.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's do a little speed round. One of your favorite books on food, can be a cookbook, memoir.
Marissa Mullen:
I'm a big fan of Molly Baz and Cook This Book. I love how she uses the QR codes. It's so fun.
Kerry Diamond:
So excited for her new book.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
More Is More, right?
Marissa Mullen:
More Is More. I love her use of primary colors. As someone who I only use pastels, it's nice to see some bold reds and blues.
Kerry Diamond:
She is a brilliant brand builder.
Marissa Mullen:
She is. I look up to her so much with her whole vibe. It's great.
Kerry Diamond:
Best food movie.
Marissa Mullen:
Is it really cliche to say, Eat, Pray, Love?
Kerry Diamond:
No, not at all. I thought you were going to say as a cliche to say Ratatouille.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, well, I also love Ratatouille. I have a Ratatouille reference in my new book actually about flavor pairings and how it explodes in his mind and fireworks. But I'm a sucker for rom-coms and Eat, Pray, Love inspired Cheese, Pray, Love, obviously. That's one of my all-time favorites.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that a rom-com? I need to rewatch that. I didn't know it was a comedy.
Marissa Mullen:
There's some comedic elements to it, I'd say, yeah. I also love Elizabeth Gilbert, one of my favorite authors.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Favorite kitchen tool?
Marissa Mullen:
Ooh, probably my food processor for all the dips.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought you were going to say a cheese knife. One thing that's always in your fridge that's not cheese.
Marissa Mullen:
That's not cheese, oh, let's see. I always have pickles, honestly. I always have a variety of pickled things, olives, pickles, pepperoncinis, anything in a brine, love that.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite childhood food.
Marissa Mullen:
Chicken nuggets. Chicken nuggets and french fries.
Kerry Diamond:
Again, I thought you might say cheese. Snack food of choice that's not cheese.
Marissa Mullen:
That's not cheese, oh, my gosh, this is so hard. I don't know if this is a snack food, but this is more like a meal. But I've been making these pita pockets with all different fillings, chicken salad or Greek salad wraps, but in a pita like toasted pita. I'm in my pita phase right now.
Kerry Diamond:
Yum. We always ask footwear of choice in the kitchen, but I don't know. That doesn't really apply to you because you're not-
Marissa Mullen:
I'm usually in my socks. Some in my apartment.
Kerry Diamond:
How many socks do you own that have cheese on them?
Marissa Mullen:
Probably all of them, yeah. I actually have a pair of slippers that are like my house shoes, so I'll wear those.
Kerry Diamond:
Any motto or mantra that gets you through the day?
Marissa Mullen:
Everything is temporary because when you're stuck in negative mindset or having a bad day, just remember that it will pass.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of being stuck, if you had to be stuck on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Marissa Mullen:
Honestly, can I do two?
Kerry Diamond:
Sure. I'll let you do two.
Marissa Mullen:
All right. Because they just collabed recently, so Stanley Tucci and Ina Garten, the best duo of all time. I just watched Stanley's Italian documentary and I'm so inspired by it. I one day want to do a European cheese travel show. It's just so beautifully shot and he's amazing. Ina is a legend. I actually have a recipe in my book that is inspired by her. It's a baked fontina cheese dip.
Kerry Diamond:
Yum. We just aired the Stanley and Ina episode,-
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
... of Be My Guest with Ina Garten, her show on the Food Network,-
Marissa Mullen:
So good.
Kerry Diamond:
... which also happens to be a podcast.
Marissa Mullen:
I love that.
Kerry Diamond:
I still can't believe that was Ina's first martini.
Marissa Mullen:
I don't believe it. I'm like, really?
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, gang, that's it for Marissa.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so much fun talking to you.
Marissa Mullen:
Likewise. Thank you for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
Congrats on another fantastic book and just thank you for all the fun and positivity you put into the world.
Marissa Mullen:
Oh, I appreciate it. Yes, and have your cheese parties, guys. Let me know what happens.
Kerry Diamond:
And for supporting all our cheese friends. There's so many great-
Marissa Mullen:
Yes, there's so many.
Kerry Diamond:
... companies out there making cheese.
Marissa Mullen:
Support your local cheese shop as much as you can do. There's probably one in your town or near you. Just Google local cheese shop. Go in, say hi. Cheesemongers are the nicest people of all time. You can also sample any cheese at a cheese shop. That's a fun fact.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm going to throw out a goal for all you listeners. I want you all to have a favorite cheesemonger by the end of 2023.
Marissa Mullen:
I love that.
Kerry Diamond:
Befriend a cheesemonger.
Marissa Mullen:
Befriend a cheesemonger, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Marissa, thank you. Have a great book tour.
Marissa Mullen:
Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Be sure to sign up for the Cherry Bombe newsletter over at cherrybombe.com so you can stay on top of all Cherry Bombe happenings, podcasts, and events. I can't wait to see some of you at this weekend's Jubilee. Please come say hi. Thank you to Whole Foods Market for supporting today's episode. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Our producer is Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thanks to you for listening. You are the Bombe.