Michelle Hernández Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and cookbook author, and my fourth book, “Salty Cheesy Herby Crispy Snackable Bakes,” comes out on September 24th. Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
My guest today is Michelle Hernández, the pastry chef behind San Francisco's Le Dix-Sept Pâtisserie. Michelle worked in tech and fashion and left it all behind for a pastry career. She studied at La Cordon Bleu in Paris and is now delighting lots of folks in the Bay Area with her French-inspired treats. Michelle is especially known for her canelé. Lots of you know what those are. They're the small bell-shaped pastries that are shiny and caramelized on the outside and creamy on the inside. Full disclosure: I've actually never made canelé. I think I was a little bit intimidated. But after my in-depth chat with Michelle about how she makes them, I think I might be ready to give them a try. Michelle is also working on a new location for Le Dix-Sept, which is opening soon. She and I had lots to talk about, so stay tuned for our chat.
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Let's check in with today's guest. Michelle, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk canelé with you, and so much more.
Michelle Hernández:
I'm super excited to be here. Very honored, considering all the amazing guests you've had in the past. Thank you so much, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh. So, I love asking guests about early baking memories, and I know yours involves an Easy Bake Oven and your fifth birthday. So, can you tell me everything about this because I'm already obsessed with you because you had an Easy Bake Oven, and I never did. Specifically, I want to know, did you ask for it, or was it a surprise, and what are some of the things that you made in it?
Michelle Hernández:
This is actually a very early and very clear memory that I have. My birthday is on July 4th, we had a pool party. We were living in California in the East Bay, and I just remember this so clearly. My best friend, when I was five, we were very close with the family, and I was opening presents, and I opened this gift, and it was an Easy Bake Oven from them. I just was so floored, and I was just so excited. I think I probably knew about them because I feel like they were probably on TV and ads and things, and I just was so excited about it. That was really the start of my love of baking and the alchemy of it all. Sometimes, I'm at work and I'm looking at my production list, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have so many things to do." And I look at the flour, and the sugar, and the eggs, and I'm like, "This is so crazy that this can become something in 30 minutes."
And I think when I got that gift, not really understanding how things worked, I tried to take it apart. My parents always tell me that, so I figured out that there was a light bulb that made it work, and I definitely touched that light bulb if you stuck your hand in. It was the early one, so there wasn't a lot of child safety there. But we would bake little cakes. It came with little pans. And then, I don't know if you ever had one, but it had a little spatula, but not really. It pushed it along. And we would bake ... I mean, my mom really was helping me do this ... the little cake for my dad's birthday. Yeah, it was probably like six months later. And we still have pictures of it. My mom made a bigger cake and then my little cakes because they only made ... I think they were two pans, and they were probably four inches, and they're flat, and I just thought it was so cool. You put it in, you wait, and then you can see it rise through the little slot. And then you push it through, and this magical little cake came out. It was just something I loved. And from that time on, I wanted to be in pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Besides the sweets and baked goods that you were whipping up in your oven, and I guess your mom making your dad a birthday cake, was there much baking going on in your childhood home?
Michelle Hernández:
There was. My mom, I have very clear memories of this too, on Sundays ... it was probably Saturdays or Sundays. I feel like Sundays, my mom would make ... I mean, I think this is classic childhood American things, blueberry muffins, which still, the smell of blueberry muffins is just like the weekend and relaxing, pancakes, of course, banana bread. Banana bread was huge. When I woke up to that smell of banana bread was just like, "Oh, this is a good Sunday." My mom is Filipino, and she grew up in the island of Guam, and one of the treats that she made is lumpia, so it's like a rolled flat rice paper with caramelized bananas inside, and then you fry it. Anything with bananas is pretty good.
So, yeah, there was definitely baking, but a lot of the things I didn't see in my house I saw on PBS, so Julia Child. There used to be a show called “Great Chefs,” and it was an insight to European pastry, and the people would wear the tokes, and I was just so interested because it was things that were so complicated. It was just so interesting to see this world that I couldn't even imagine. And growing up in California and then later, I did middle school and high school in Arizona. There was just nothing like that yet, really, I wasn't exposed to that level of high cuisine, and I just thought that was so interesting. So, a lot of things I saw on PBS.
Jessie Sheehan:
In addition to baking from a young age, you also took over all of the cooking from your mom at a super young age as well, and mostly fish and veggies inspired by her culture, but also Mexican food inspired by your dad's.
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah. So, my mom showed me how to cook. I would just sit there and watch her at the stove. And I love to eat, and I wanted food faster, so I would watch her make spaghetti bolognese, and I'm like, "Why is this taking so long? Can I do this?" So, she would show me how to do things, and I was just like, "I have to get this faster," or, "I want this on Tuesday instead of Wednesday." And so I just started learning from her and then making my own food. And then, because of shows that I would watch when I was so young, I would just experiment and get in front of the stove. And so I think I was using the stove with a little step stool probably when I was six.
I really got interested in using a wok because of “Yan Can Cook,” and I really burned myself really bad, but then I learned that woks are very hot. And I would just throw anything in to see how things tasted. And my poor dad, I would just be like, "Here's some food I made," and he would very kindly eat it. And I look back at that, and I'm like, "Wow, I made a lot of things that I made my parents eat."
Jessie Sheehan:
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Now, back to our guest. So, you are a self-described PBS cooking show nerd when-
Michelle Hernández:
Oh, for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
... you were growing up and watching Jacques Pepin, Julia Child, and “Yan Can Cook.” And at 16, you brought this idea of attending culinary school to your parents. And they ended up saying no, and so you studied pre-med at Berkeley instead. But tell us about how you knew about the school and how you thought to yourself, "That sounds like a good thing to do when I leave my parents' home." Forget college. I'm going to culinary school. Where did all that come from?
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah, I think since I was five, I was interested in how you become a chef, and I didn't have a model of that anywhere. I don't think I knew anybody who was even in the industry, so I really looked at these shows and tried to figure out how ... Jacques Pepin, you mentioned learning about his life and how did he become a chef. I remember when college applications time was coming up, you get all these, back in the day, pamphlets and brochures, and you decide, and you know the big schools and then the smaller schools, and things that are very specific to what you might want to study. And I don't know how I got ahold ... I think it was through a bookstore that I saw an application or a brochure for California Culinary Academy. It was CCA.
It, unfortunately, no longer exists. It was in San Francisco. My early life was in the Bay Area, and I always wanted to go back home. And so, I was like, "This is great." And so I took that application to my parents, and I also had my Stanford application, my Berkeley application, and they were like, "No, you need a formal education." And I am so glad that they were very firm about that because my ultimate goal was to have a pastry shop and have a business. Besides baking, and pastry, and cuisine, I also always wanted a storefront and retail. That was just a big thing. I used to play store when I was little, and my customer was my little sister. I would make her buy things from my shop I would set up. And now, that's what I have. You need so much business background to run any business, but especially in pastry and a small business, so I'm glad I had that because going to school at UC Berkeley helped get me there.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, after college, you worked as a digital marketer, although that job title didn't actually exist, at a startup that became Evite. I just love that little tidbit. And then you ended up working at the Gap, where you worked for a while, saving money so you could go to the Cordon Bleu in Paris, and you were taking French classes. When did you know that you would go to culinary school? Was it just right when you graduated from college? You were like, "This is my next move."
Michelle Hernández:
No, I don't think it was right after because once I was at Cal, I was like, "I love this." I had a great experience at Cal, such a great education, and great ... it's known for being very radical. A lot of movements have come out of there, and I just really loved my experience. So, I got the opportunity to work at Evite. I am somebody who, if I'm interested in doing something, I will start on the ground floor. I literally had an opportunity to talk to the founders, and I was like, "I'll do anything. I'll clean the bathrooms, anything. I just really want this job and this opportunity." Because of that, I think I've gotten opportunities and making them on my own because when someone says, "I just want to help out. I just want to be a part of this. It doesn't matter what. I just want to be a part of it."
Getting that opportunity, I really just went with that wave and then got into marketing because marketing is something that I think that you can learn. I think there are people who are more skilled at it, but I didn't know anything about it. And I had a great teacher when I was at Evite, learning about what branding is. And as I went on, I was just like, "Okay, I'm getting more and more experience in marketing." And at the time, the salary was very good. You get swept up in the corporate world.
I realized I was getting a little bit away from my path, but I was still learning. So, we use a lot of marketing today in the business, so much marketing. It's all about marketing to drive a business. I finally re-centered myself, and I said, "My goal is actually to get to Paris and to do this, but along the way, I'm going to enjoy this journey, and I'm going to continue that path of learning." I was probably a year into the Gap, and I was like, "You know what? I need to figure out exactly what I need to learn here. I need to learn how to read a P&L. I need to learn more about marketing. I just need to learn how a business is run from a store side and also a digital side." And taking that into account, how long do I need to be here to save money to go to Paris?
Jessie Sheehan:
When you did get to the Cordon Bleu, you ended up receiving the coveted Le Grand Diplome. Can you tell us what that is in case people don't know?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. Le Grand Diplome is a degree in both pastry and in cuisine. My goal was to be in pastry. I was so interested in baking. And knowing that I had to save up all this money, I was already going to Paris. I thought, "I should just do a background in cuisine as well." So that means all the savory foods, everything you would do at a restaurant on the savory side versus the pastry, which is very divided. And so I'm so glad I did do both of those things because a lot of the work that I do also includes savory. You can take the techniques you've learned from pastry and apply it to savory. So, knowing both ways, both different techniques in cuisine and pastry, has just really helped me become more efficient. I'm able to use my creativity more because I have a basis in both.
But not everyone does Le Grand Diplome. You're taking double the classes, and it is more challenging. And I'm glad I did it because as I got towards the end, I was like, "Oh, I think I want to do cuisine." You feel like you're rolling with the big dogs when you're doing really well in cuisine. So, I graduated. I was fifth in my class in cuisine. I love cooking, but pastry, for me, is a better way of life. Working in a retail production setting is what I love. I love doing testing. I love the idea of lab work. I have so much respect for people who are working on the line. That is not my life anymore. You get such a thrill and a rush from working on the line in cuisine. I don't think I can do it anymore.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your French training clearly, clearly influences your dessert style as you're known for French pastries and wild botanical flavors and colors inspired by nature. Can you unpack that for us, how you would describe your style? And also, the word botanicals comes up a lot. Can you define what botanicals means to you?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. So, botanicals at Le Dix-Sept, what we mean ... we get this question a lot because sometimes, people are like, "Oh, does that mean everything's vegan?" So, they think of plant-based because botanicals is based around plants. But what we mean at Le Dix-Sept is that each of the products, for instance, a canelé, is focused around specific botanicals. So, in a canelé, it's all about the vanilla bean. The flavor of the real vanilla bean should be coming through. Other things that we include are ... I love passion fruit. Passion fruit is my jam. I love the acidity of it. Lavender, rose, cardamon, just an array of flowers, tea leaves, fruits, really just anything that encompasses that botanical idea. But there's nothing that we have on there that doesn't speak to a botanical and doesn't highlight a botanical, and that's really a differentiating factor in Le Dix-Sept pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your brand, Le Dix-Sept, began with a farmer's market stand in 2011. There were pop-ups, outside vendors. And then today, Le Dix-Sept is described as one of the most beautiful bakeries in San Francisco. And you're about to open your second brick-and-mortar, which will become your flagship, where your team will finally be able to bake and sell under the same roof, which is amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about the bakery's mission?
Michelle Hernández:
What we really are focused on, number one, is to provide excellent, excellent products that incorporate botanicals that bring people together. So, it's a place where you would come to get pastry that you're going to share at a table, that you're going to share at a picnic. We want to be a part of those celebrations and experiences, and we have been. I've seen people at the farmer's market who had come, and our clients, and were dating, and then got engaged, and we did their engagement. We've done quite a number of people where, instead of regular desserts, they've ordered canelés for their engagement. We've seen people get married, and then we do their wedding cakes. And then we do a lot of first birthdays. And just being a part of the community is so important to me. A lot of people come to us as their pastry shop. They'll come, and they'll ask for something very custom, and that really warms my heart because we have gotten to know these customers and what they like. And just to be a part of that special moment is so rewarding.
Jessie Sheehan:
In addition to selling such deliciousness as brioche knots, and focaccia, and macarons, choux and gluten-free almond tarts, and bespoke celebration cakes, you sell canelés, and we're going to talk about them. So, first of all, why don't you describe one for us and for the listeners just in case somebody's a little bit like, "Now, what's a canelé?"
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. We've definitely done a lot of education around canelés because we have them on the counter every day. And people often say, "Oh, what is that little chocolate thing?" And we set expectations. It is not chocolate. It is a very delicious pastry that is specific to Bordeaux, and it's baked in individual copper molds, and it has a very crunchy and crispy exterior that's super caramelized, very dark. And then, on the inside, the flavor is vanilla bean and rum with this amazing spongy bread pudding-like texture, but it's not oozy gooey. It's just the most interesting pastry, and people really love it. They come far and wide for our specific canelé.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love canelé so much. I can't wait to taste one of yours. One of the interesting things about canelé, because it's such an unusual pastry, and a lot of its uniqueness comes from this unique or unusual ratio of ingredients. There is lots of liquid in a canelé, and it has these, as you said, these rich notes of rum and vanilla, also burnt milk, but in the best way. I don't want that to sound negative at all, and sugar. And you have been working on your canelé recipe for 14 years, and you are literally the self-described canelé queen. Can you tell us why you love them so much, why they speak to you?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. Talk about alchemy and the description of bringing together these simple, simple ingredients to create something that is so different. You could put these same ingredients together in different ratios, and you'll have a crepe, or you'll have a cake. It just depends on how you're working it on the technique you're using. And to me, that is complete magic. It's just wonderful. The other reason I really love them is I love what's called a French bake. So, all of the products at Le Dix-Sept have a French bake, so it means it's very caramelized. It's very dark. We don't do anything that's blonde. And I'm so very specific about canelés, the way that they're made. The canelés should be dark, very, very caramelized.
Sometimes, people are like, "Oh, is this burnt?" And I'm like, "No, no, no." If you've seen a canelé that is what we call blonde, which is very light brown, when you bite into it, it should be very resistant to your teeth, and it should crunch, and then it should give to this beautiful soft interior. And that, to me, is magic. That mired reaction of the sugar getting caramelized and creating a new flavor, like you said, that burnt sugar flavor is the essence of a canelé, The two different textures.
Jessie Sheehan:
They definitely require patience and practice, and they can be unpredictable. I think even the best of the best can sometimes make a batch of canelé that either have an unevenly brown top, or they fall a little bit in the middle. But one thing you've said that it's really important to use the best quality ingredients you can when you make a canelé because they're so few of them, and you'll really taste them in the final product, like you said, similar to a crepe ingredient or similar to clafoutis, but in this specific ratio. It seems like generally, with canelé, the sugar and flour are about the same amount, and the liquid is a much higher amount, and then butter much less than you would think. For the milk, for instance, that's really responsible for the flavor and the browning.
Michelle Hernández:
So, a lot of the flavor is going to come from the sugar being caramelized. The milk does have sugar in it as well. So, the flavor is coming from the vanilla beans, and then at the end, the rum. But yes, in terms of the ratio, the liquid is very high.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then the sugar is maybe the second largest ingredient in the batter, and that is going to contribute to that crispy exterior and that gooey interior.
Michelle Hernández:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Butter is bringing us some richness and flavor. Eggs make for a light custard. Yolks maybe a slightly richer one. And then, like you said, the rum and vanilla for flavor, the salt to season. I thought we could maybe walk through the recipe that you guys use at Le Dix-Sept. So, first, we're going to make the batter, and we're going to infuse our milk. Is it organic milk, and is it whole milk?
Michelle Hernández:
We're using whole milk. And in terms of the vanilla beans, I'm very the farmer's market ideas. If I get ahold of some great ingredients that are maybe not available through the rest of the year, I'm going to use them. I have a great friend who travels to Mexico for her work. She roasts coffee beans. And actually, it's the coffee that we use. She's gone before. She's brought back this beautiful Mexican vanilla. And so, in general, we're using Massey vanilla paste, which is very highly concentrated. We use a lot of it. But if I can get a hold of really nice beans, I'll also include those beans and scrape them out, and add the vanilla pod into the milk to infuse.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, if you're using the Nielsen Massey paste, you'll just put the paste right into the milk. You don't buy beans from them and then use those?
Michelle Hernández:
No, but we do, additionally, have beans, so we always have beans in the house because we're also flavoring sugar with them as well. And the smell of a fresh pod is amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have our milk, and we're flavoring that milk over a medium-high heat or a medium heat?
Michelle Hernández:
It's a medium heat. You don't want to decrease the amount of liquid. You don't want it to all evaporate because what's going to happen is if you walk away, which everyone has done because you're doing lots of things at a lot of times, you're going to evaporate too much of the liquid. And when you incorporate the flour, it's going to get too thick. What I like to say is more of a popover. You've made a popover instead of a canelé. A lot of times, your batter is too thick.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to carefully watch our milk that we're infusing with either vanilla paste or vanilla beans over medium heat. Are we waiting for it to simmer, and then we can turn it off and let it set?
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah, I actually don't even take it to a simmer. I want it to be around 60 to 50 degrees, and I want it to really just infuse. I definitely don't want to boil it. If you want to take it to a simmer and then immediately turn it off, cover it, and let it sit. It'll start to infuse.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you do the infusion just while you're prepping the rest of the recipe, or do you like to do the infusion overnight so you get a more concentrated flavor?
Michelle Hernández:
I think you should always do it ahead of time. And then, after you cool it down, putting it into the fridge, let it marinate and do its thing, and then come back and use it again. So, you're going to warm it up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Overnight?
Michelle Hernández:
Overnight, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Overnight. You might just have something from restaurant supply. But is there a specific pot that you like to use at this stage of the recipe?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. When we were doing smaller batches ... now we do very large batches. There was a copper pot that I loved. I love copper. Copper is amazing. There's a lot of copper in France, and there's a reason. It's very conductive. I have this copper pot that's extremely heavy and durable, so it is actually a little bit hard to burn things in it because it's so thick. I like to use that pot, so a very heavy-bottomed pot. You never want to do anything with milk in a very thin aluminum pot. You're asking for trouble.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, maybe in a bowl, we're going to combine butter, and sugar, and eggs, and salt. And at this point, is the butter melted since we're combining it with the sugar, or are you creaming it?
Michelle Hernández:
You can melt it. You could also put it into the end of the milk. But for us, we're putting it as very soft.
Jessie Sheehan:
Very soft, and you're mixing that with granulated sugar. And are you using just eggs, or do you also have yolks?
Michelle Hernández:
We also have yolks, yes. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. A mixture of eggs and yolks, a little bit of salt. Is the salt kosher?
Michelle Hernández:
The salt is sea salt.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're whisking all of this together in a bowl, or-
Michelle Hernández:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
The butter is soft enough that you can do this by hand or in a Hobart or a stand mixer?
Michelle Hernández:
I would do it in a stand mixer. So, if you're doing a smaller batch, you can do anything by hand. That's one thing you learn at Cordon Bleu just in case your mixer breaks. That's happened before. I know how to do everything by hand. It is much better to do it in a stand mixer, for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, in the stand mixer, we have our sugar. We have our eggs. We have our softened butter, a little bit of salt. What are we looking for in the stand mixer? Is it a just combined situation where you just want to see that moment where everything comes together, or are we looking for lightened color and fluffy?
Michelle Hernández:
You want to make sure that everything is combined. It's not just combined. You really do want to mix it so it's completely homogenized.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, but not aerated. We don't-
Michelle Hernández:
No, no, don't. No. That's great that you bring that up. You want to not incorporate too much air in this batter because you're going to create a souffle. Even though you're letting it sit for at least 24 hours, that air will continue to stay in the batter if you work it too much, so you want to be really careful about that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to add in some flour. Again, I assume we're just putting it right into our stand mixer.
Michelle Hernández:
We are.
Jessie Sheehan:
And are we using a paddle attachment or a whisk attachment?
Michelle Hernández:
This is a paddle, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it's all-purpose flour, and is there a brand that you like?
Michelle Hernández:
You can use an all-purpose flour. We use an organic all-purpose. The brand is Giusto, which you can't get it just off the shelf, but we have a great grocery here called Rainbow, and they actually sell the larger packages of it. It's not available like that on the shelf. We're getting 50-pound bags.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to add the flour into our egg mixture. On our stand mixer, I assume we're sort of just beating until combined.
Michelle Hernández:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Maybe we even still see a streak of flour, and then by hand with a spatula, we fold that in just so we don't overmix.
Michelle Hernández:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then, we are going to add in that infused milk, which will hopefully, ideally, have rested in the fridge. Do you want it brought back a little bit warm, or just brought back to room temp?
Michelle Hernández:
Warm, yeah, definitely warm, but not boiling at all. There's eggs in there, so you want to be really careful that you're not creating scrambled eggs.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll pour in our milk. Would we combine the flour first and then do the milk?
Michelle Hernández:
Correct, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then, again, just until that milk is combined, and stop when you see the milk combined.
Michelle Hernández:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then, we're going to add some rum, and the alcohol bakes off, right? It's more just the flavor that you're going to get.
Michelle Hernández:
You just want the flavor, and that's because it's being baked off versus with anything that's perfumed with rum after it's baked. So, maybe like a syrup, you're going to get the alcohol flavor, and that is great for that purpose, but that's not the flavor here. It's not the alcohol-y taste. I would think about it as the way you use vanilla extract. You shouldn't taste the alcohol.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you have a special rum that you love?
Michelle Hernández:
We use a really dark rum. Yeah. And I've used several different brands, and I've tested them. We've used very expensive rum. We've used more moderate rum. For me, I love a dark rum, and I don't want it to be spiced rum. For us, no, because we want the pure flavor of the rum plus the vanilla bean. I don't want to hide the vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
Many recipes strain the batter at this point. Do you all strain the batter at this point?
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah, I would strain the batter, for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
And what are we looking for, maybe a little bit of a curdled egg or something? Is that what we're straining?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes, just in case. And then you're also looking for did I dissolve all the sugar?
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we strain our batter, then we cover that and chill it. Do you chill overnight or just ... I've also read you can chill four to 12 hours. Do you like an entire overnight rest for this?
Michelle Hernández:
At a minimum, yes. Ideally, 48 hours because you want to hydrate the flour, and you also want to continue to work that vanilla bean, and now you've added the rum, all that flavor. The reason why you don't add the rum to the liquid at the beginning is because you don't want all the flavor to burn off, and you also want some of that liquid. Otherwise, again, it's going to get thick, and I'm always worried about evaporating some of that liquid that you need to keep it loose.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I read that it was very important for the texture of canelé to have this long rest in the refrigerator, which is exactly what you're talking about. If people are tempted to rush, there actually is a reason for that. It's not just about it being cold.
Michelle Hernández:
You're absolutely right. It's not impossible to do to bake it, but you're not going to get the right flavor. The sugar needs to, again, continue to do its thing and flavor everything along with the vanilla bean and the rum. Your best bet is to, especially if you're a beginner, I would say, wait 48 hours.
Jessie Sheehan:
So next, we're going to prep our molds. If you're working with new copper molds, you need to season them.
Michelle Hernández:
You absolutely have to season them and take the time to do it because if you don't, they'll get stuck. I don't care if you're using beeswax, anything. Think about cast iron. One of the ways that we do it is put the oil in, so I'll use a very neutral oil, and then I'll bake it just like I would a cast iron. But I'm not filling it with oil. And then, I'm doing it at least twice. The actual mold makes a huge difference. You cannot do this in silicone.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was also going to say that your love of, is it Bien Cuit, which is the French expression, and there's actually a bakery in Brooklyn called that, but the idea is this dark brown that you want from your pastry that Americans are like, "What? Why does it look like that?" But that's what we're after. I once heard Carla Hall say about a pie crust, "There's flavor in the brown. There's flavor in the brown." You want your canelé. You want to use molds that are going to get you that dark, dark color because that is where the flavor is going to be and the texture.
Michelle Hernández:
And the texture. If it's not dark ... you can just visually see if it's not very dark verging on, oh no, I've burnt it. It's not going to have that flavor. It's not going to have that crisp. It's a very short timeline that the canelé can live and have that great texture and crispness. And if it starts out, and you're presenting it, and it's blonde already, so it's very, very light brown, maybe even, I mean, the color of straw I've seen sometimes, it's not a canelé. That's, to me, a custard cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to prep our molds in order to fill them with our batter. And many people combine melted butter and food-grade unscented beeswax. Do you guys do that, or do you just do wax?
Michelle Hernández:
I've done both versions. I'm always testing. I like adding a little bit of fat. I think it helps with the slip. So, beeswax is a little tricky to work with. You want to melt it. But by the time you might be working with it, it can already start solidifying, and so it helps to have a little bit of fat in there, a little bit of oil or clarified butter. You want to use clarified butter for sure, instead of just regular butter. It could just burn a little bit faster. And again, we're talking about things that we like, that burnt taste. This is different because it's in the oven for so long that it actually will burn and smoke your oven. If you're in a house, a kitchen, you might not have the best ventilation. It's going to cause a lot of smoke.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, the clarified butter will burn cleaner, and at a higher temp, it won't burn the way that regular butter will.
Michelle Hernández:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's really helpful. And we're going to melt the butter and the beeswax together. Beeswax, I'm assuming, you can buy online at Amazon.
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah, I've looked on Amazon before, and what you want to be careful of is you need food-grade beeswax, and it needs to be pure. And not all the beeswax that's out there is edible, so I would say find your local farmer's market honey vendor. They're going to have beeswax. And you're just going to want to make sure because there's beeswax to make candles, and then there's beeswax that is edible, and you want to just triple-check that it's edible. The one that we have here is from Marshall Farms, and that's a local farm that you can get beeswax at the ferry building, and it's edible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we need the wax because it will help give us that classic, beautiful, shiny exterior of the canelé. It also allows them to slip out of these molds that they actually are dying to stay in.
Michelle Hernández:
They are dying to stay in.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to ask you about other molds, but you've already made it clear that you really believe proper canelé needs to be done in a proper copper canelé mold.
Michelle Hernández:
Without exception, without exception.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Good to know.
Michelle Hernández:
There's different shapes and sizes to the canelé. We use what's called a 45, which means it's a 45-millimeter size, which is about one-and-three-fourths inch, and it's the same width as it is height. There's about three different types. There's a mini one, so that one's smaller. That's like a 35, and then there's a larger one, which is a 55. I prefer the 45 because it's a great crust-to-interior ratio. I like it to be one to two bites. The other one, I just feel like it's a lot. So, we do have a larger one, and I use it for weddings. It's a nice over-the-top. To me, that's an American-size canelé.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to heat the molds in a 300-degree oven just to warm them before we brush them with butter and wax. Or do you not do that?
Michelle Hernández:
I actually don't do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Michelle Hernández:
So, I know that a lot of people do that. I think that's an extra step. I'm all about, again, testing things. If you don't need to do it, you don't need to do it. But if I was in a very cold environment in a very cold kitchen, I would probably do it. But in California, it's pretty temperate. Unless your molds were very, very cold, just skip that step. Just your beeswax mixture needs to be warm and still pourable. So, it starts solidifying at around 60 degrees, and it goes really fast. You'll look, and then the pot is just completely opaque, and you have to start again.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also read that some people will warm the molds, which you're saying you don't do. You want to brush quickly and efficiently. You may need to reheat because the wax may solidify again. But I also read that then you can stick the molds in the freezer to chill them before you put the batter in.
Michelle Hernández:
So, I'm going to just go back on the brushing. I actually pour the wax directly in, and then I flip them over. You can absolutely brush them. The thing with the pouring is you know that the whole thing's coated. I also am all into using less utensils and clean up because beeswax is tricky to clean up, and you don't want to clog your drain. So, you want to make sure none of this is going down the drain, otherwise, you're going to clog your drain, and it will solidify at some point in your system.
Jessie Sheehan:
After you have coated the insides of the molds, do you chill them before putting in the batter?
Michelle Hernández:
So, a lot of people do, or you see that a lot of people are chilling them. They're pouring the wax mixture in or just the wax in, and then they have that layer, and then they're chilling them. I don't do that. One of the reasons I don't do that is because ... Have you made a madeleine?
Jessie Sheehan:
In my lifetime, yes.
Michelle Hernández:
In your lifetime, yes. Okay. So, one of the ways that you get the bump is you chill the mold because it's forcing the cold pan, and then the hot oven ... it's almost like when you make a muffin, the outside starts baking before the inside, and then it's pushing it up. I don't want a volcano in my canelé. I want it flat. So, again, maybe that works for some people. I don't need that extra step. But I also am waiting for the wax and the actual mold to cool down before I start pouring in my canelé batter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Next, we're going to bake. We're going to fill our molds almost to the top with batter, but not too high because then you can get something that they call the ... I know there's a French expression, but the white bottom.
Michelle Hernández:
Yeah, blanc cul, cul blanc.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And we want to avoid the white bottom. And if you leave a teeny bit of space between the batter and the top of the mold, you can avoid that. And then, maybe placing these on a foil-lined baking sheet. What are you guys doing?
Michelle Hernández:
I'm a rule breaker. I fill it all the way to the top. More is more. More is better, so I fill it all the way to the top. But yes, if I was just starting out, I would use a little scant, not fill it all the way to the top, to understand what's going on in the process. But I do fill it all the way to the top, and I just want to make sure it's a full canelé. The sheet that we're putting it on ... so, you want to make sure that the sheet pan that you're using is pretty thick and sturdy and won't warp in the oven because you have these canelés that are potentially filled to the top, and you don't want it to move around at all. You want a super flat bottom pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there a brand of pan that you love?
Michelle Hernández:
The one that I feel doesn't warp is the gold Nordicware pans. You can get a pretty heavy one through a restaurant supply. But the Nordicware that are gold, I really like them. I feel like they're thick. They withstand a lot of heat, and it's copper that you're placing on top of the pan, so you want to make sure it's durable. And then, I always line it with parchment because these molds have wax and oil. It's for cleanup, essentially.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to bake at 500 degrees for about 15 minutes. Is that what you guys do? Do you start at a very high heat for a short amount of time and then lower the temperature?
Michelle Hernández:
One of the things about these copper tin-lined molds is the tin starts to warp and melt at about four 450 Fahrenheit. I really wonder when you see these recipes that say it's 500 degrees, if it's really 500 degrees, or if it's a 500 degrees home oven. And so you want to have two things. We always have a thermometer that's in the oven so I can check the temperature. Then, you see the temperature of what the oven says it is, and you determine which one's correct. And the one that's correct is the one that's in the oven. And then, I also use the little laser gun to just triple-check because a canelé has very few ingredients. At this point, it's all about temperature.
Jessie Sheehan:
What is your temp?
Michelle Hernández:
So, I really like a 400-degree.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, Michelle, if you're baking at 400 convection, then a home oven is going to be 425.
Michelle Hernández:
400, 450, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or even 450.
Michelle Hernández:
Mm-hmm. Again, you want to check your home oven because I've tried to bake before in a home oven, and what you find is, unless you have a very professional oven, which I've never had at home, it doesn't seal completely. It's not a really tight seal. In a professional oven, when you push our oven close, you can hear the vacuum go out. And that's one of the tricky things about canelés is you can have a great canelé very easily, I think, in a commercial oven. Much more challenging in a home oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
I get it totally. And we're going to bake our canelé till the tops are almost black or very dark brown.
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
We do not open the oven. We make sure our oven is accurate because, just like you said, if it's not high enough, you're not going to get that custardy interior.
Michelle Hernández:
Correct. Don't open the oven, but I've baked in a lot of ovens where I can't see inside, and so I have had to open the oven. But I will not open the oven. I'll even put a sign on there that canelés are baking until we hit the 30-minute mark to take a peek at what's going on and maybe quickly turn it. But again, you have to move really fast. The pan is really hot. You have hot liquid in there, so you just want to be really careful if you do that. But ideally, you're not opening at all until it's done. You're looking for very dark, just like you said, tops because that's all you can see.
Jessie Sheehan:
Typically, I know it probably depends, but typically, about how long is it at 400 degrees?
Michelle Hernández:
I would say you're baking at least an hour, maybe an hour and 10 minutes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, then you remove the molds and immediately remove the canelé from the molds as fast as possible?
Michelle Hernández:
Immediately, yes. I've seen recipes and examples where they use tongs to flip them over. This is a little tricky. I just used our torch on our towel to do it with my hands. It is hot, but I think if you use the tongs and you can't get it out immediately, the canelé mold could fall, or it could hit you. I think it's a little bit more dangerous. I think it's less dangerous to use a ... unfortunately, I don't think you can use an oven mitt because you need to be able to feel the canelé, but a very, very, very thick, dry towel to just unmold them very quickly. And you don't want to keep them in the mold. Don't pull it out of the oven and then walk away because then you're going to start steaming them, and you won't get them crispy. So, get them out of the mold as soon as possible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once we get them out of the molds, how long do we want to wait before we serve them? Do you wait till they're room temp, or do you wait longer? I know you want to eat a canelé the day it was baked, ideally, correct?
Michelle Hernández:
Yes. So at Le Dix-Sept, we only sell canelés the day that they're baked, and that is a hard, hard rule for us. We often have customers who come in and say, "I'm having a party tomorrow. There's 30 people. We want 30 canelés. I'm going to pick them up today because I can't come in tomorrow." We will not sell them to them. We want them to have the right experience. And yes, do they taste good the next day, even if they're a little soft? Yeah, it's a pastry, and it's sugar. Of course. But what makes it so exceptional is that crust. And what's so interesting and delicate and why they are expensive is all of these things that we've talked about, all of these various steps that include having them the same day that they're baked.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. And then, you wouldn't serve them warm. Do you wait until they're room temp and then serve them?
Michelle Hernández:
We do serve them room temp. And the reason why, again, is a lot of people have said, "Oh, can I have a canelé right out of the oven?" And it's a cool experience, but the shell does not start forming until it's at room temp. So, you want to make sure that it's at room temp, otherwise, you're not going to give them the experience. You can start serving them when the crust forms, and you can tell. Today, I baked them, and I could see that it was still a little bit warm in the center, and I was very tempted to just go for it and eat it. But you should wait.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Michelle. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Michelle Hernández:
Thank you so much, Jessie. Thank you for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to California Prunes for supporting this episode. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your baking pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe podcast network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.