Nicola Lamb Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Nicola Lamb, a pastry chef, recipe developer, and cookbook author based in London. Her debut book, “Sift,” was published last year and it's a comprehensive baking guide for beginner and advanced bakers alike. Nicola also has a popular substack called Kitchen Projects and runs the pop-up bakery Lark. Nicola joins me today to talk all about croissant, something I've wanted to discuss on this show for forever. It seems like the U.S. is in the midst of a croissant renaissance, and I was eager to learn all of Nicola's tips and tricks for getting perfectly, flaky, buttery layers. Nicola and I discuss her early days as a baker for Dominique Ansel in New York City, about our shared love of dim sum, and the pride we take in being baking nerds. Then we do a deep dive into her recipe for croissant, which includes discussing her croissant and lamination theories. A little nerdy, right? You don't want to miss our chat, so stay tuned.
Cherry Bombe's next issue is all about love, and I think you're going to love the cover. It features Ilona, Olivia, Adrianna Maher, the sister trio that has won everyone's hearts for their positive message of confidence and self-love. The issue is full of joyful stories and recipes. The issue will be out on February 13th, AKA Galentine's Day, AKA our favorite holiday. If you're a subscriber, you'll receive your issue first. If you're not a subscriber, sign up by Friday, February 7th to get this issue and the following three issues of Cherry Bombe magazine. Subscribers always get free shipping, so head to cherrybombe.com to become a subscriber or pre-order the issue. We know the world needs a little more love right now, so we hope you'll pick up a copy.
Let's chat with today's guest. Nicola, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk croissant with you and so much more.
Nicola Lamb:
I'm so excited to be here. I can hear the jingling theme in my head as I walked into the room to meet you. The little guitars or ukuleles maybe, I can hear them. I love it. Thanks for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I love asking guests about an early baking memory, whether it be an actual baking memory or an early baked good eating memory. Can you share one?
Nicola Lamb:
Well, it would be wrong not to mention my Nanny Carol at this stage, especially because my book is dedicated to her.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wondered who Carol was, and you acknowledge her in the acknowledgements.
Nicola Lamb:
She's the best, and Carol had so many formative baking memories for me. And it's funny because the acknowledgement says, "To Carol and her brownies," and people are going, "What's that brownie recipe?" And I say, "No one's ever getting Nanny Carol's brownies because I'm so protective of it." And normally I think recipes and baking is subjective. So if someone says, "Oh, that cake was a bit too chocolatey for me," I can take that.
But if someone said something about Carol's brownies, I'd be so upset. So that recipe is very close to me and it's what she always used to make for us. And I remember we would come home, and if there was a tin on the table, it meant that there were brownies. And we would house one whole batch between me and my two sisters one day easily.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I just want to be clear, is it nanny like she was your nanny or nana like she was a grandmother?
Nicola Lamb:
So she was our nanny. We are still so close to this day. She looked after both my older sister, my middle sister, and me. Actually started by looking after my grandpa when he was old. And then my mom got pregnant and said, "Hey, have you ever done childcare?" So yeah, she was like my second mom/grandma, but nanny.
Jessie Sheehan:
And pastry inspiration.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, totally. She makes the best chicken soup too, but I'm not that good at cooking, so yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Did your mom ever bake, your dad? Was food important to the people in your family?
Nicola Lamb:
Food was such a big part of our family. We always ate together every night, whether Carol prepared a meal for us, she would do stews and soups and things like that, or my mom would cook. My mom was a doctor, so she worked really long hours. But my dad, unlike a lot of dads, would always make sure he cooked three or four times a week. And he's from Shanghai, grew up in Hong Kong, so we used to eat lots of Chinese food growing up.
And so I got so influenced by those kind of beautiful soy saucy, umami flavors, crispy really fresh vegetables. So it was always a big part of what we did. Used to go out to eat a lot as well to our local Chinese restaurant, go for dim sum every Sunday. Sunday roasts are a big thing in the U.K. Do you have a big meal on a Sunday here?
Jessie Sheehan:
No, but can I just say that when I was growing up, we often went on Sunday for dim sum and I love... Literally like I'm salivating. Dim sum is one of my favorite things ever.
Nicola Lamb:
Me too. It's my comfort food. Beyond cakes when I really need something to just feel at home, I go and search for Har Gow, prawn dumplings. Uh, I absolutely love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
What about food TV? Were you influenced at all or did you have a show that you liked when you were little?
Nicola Lamb:
Totally. Some of the TV stars... Actually, the U.K. TV stars that are still big now were big when I was growing up. So that was your Gordon Ramsays before he was doing “Kitchen Nightmares” and it was a lot of shouting. He also did a lot of cooking shows as well. Jamie Oliver, absolute legend. He really taught so many of us how to cook. He's so inviting and so passionate about food. Nigel Slater, I grew up watching his TV shows as well.
And of course, Nigella Lawson. And all of these people, they still are on TV today and making really, really quality shows and I really do love that. I suppose it's sort of like how you have Ina Garten and these people who have just been around forever, and they taught you. They're the people you rely on for stuff. Like I want to make roast potatoes. You know if you go to them, you're in good hands. So I absolutely got influenced by them.
Jessie Sheehan:
And when you were little, would you come home from school and watch?
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah. Not as much when I was very young. I would say I got more into it as a teenager and baking became more of a hobby, because that's actually when I started baking. I started baking more when I moved to London. When I was 18, I didn't really have that many friends or many plans. But you know what was a great thing to do with my weekend? Baking. So that's how I ended up getting much more into it. And that's when I got more into food TV and actually started buying cookbooks and really realizing that it was such a meaningful and fun activity.
Jessie Sheehan:
Did you move to university and also tell me about a baking book that you bought that you loved?
Nicola Lamb:
Of course. So one of the baking books I absolutely loved was the Dominique Ansel cookbook. Oh my gosh, his first one, “The Secret Recipes,” I remember picking that up when I think I was 20 when it came out. And I just thought, this is unbelievable. I had seen his recipes go viral online. And when I got the cookbook, I just couldn't believe that this was something that you could make.
I also had things like the Delia Smith cookbooks, and I had the Michel Roux and The Roux Brothers dessert books, but that was the first modern patisserie that I got that really took my imagination. And in terms of moving to London, I didn't go to university. I moved when I was 18 thinking I'm going to go next year. Because when I was 18, I just thought I'm not responsible enough to know what to do with the next four years of my life. And so I said, okay, I'll just go to London for a bit.
I'll start working, see what I like, and then I'll go to university next year. And I just ended up not going and I started off in an office job. I was doing publicity for theatre and music and arts, which is still something that I absolutely love. And then that was when I was getting into cooking. Anyone who's listening to this, I wonder if the people who listen to this and the people that read your books and read baking books, they're probably the office cake person. Do you know what I mean?
They're the person that when someone's birthday is coming up, they're the person that makes the cake for the office. They're the ones that bring the joy. And I was the office cake person before I became a real life baker cake person.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Peeps, have you heard about Cherry Bombe's Jubilee? It's our annual conference for women in food, drink, and hospitality, and it's happening Saturday, April 12th in New York City. I always love being at Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry chefs, and cookbook authors. If you'd like to join us, you can get tickets at cherrybombe.com. If you're an official Bombe Squad member, check your inbox for special member pricing. I hope to see you there. Now back to our guest.
So we just had Dominique on as a guest, I just adore him, to talk about his beautiful new book. And I was so struck when you were acknowledging Dominique Ansel and the bakery, you mentioned, "To the great teachers from my humbling days in the kitchen." So I wanted to ask why humbling, was that your first job, and did you perfect croissant while you were there?
Nicola Lamb:
So the reason why it was humbling is because to put it plainly, I was so messy and bad. Oh, my goodness! I'd been baking a lot at home being the office cake person, and I moved to New York actually to go to pastry school. And before I started at pastry school, I thought, I'm going to get some experience in a real kitchen. And I always say this to anyone who's thinking about moving into baking, I say, go check that you like it.
Because some people, you go into a kitchen and it doesn't really gel with your vibe, which is totally fine, but some people go in and it just works and you just feel like yourself in a kitchen. And so I thought, okay, if I'm going to work in a kitchen, where do I want to work? Dominique Ansel. So I just started emailing them and contacting them and being like, please, can you interview me? I'd love to work, whether it's work experience, a start, whatever it is. Eventually, very nicely, I went in and they said, "Okay, you can come in and we'll have a chat with you."
And I remember I went in and they said, "Oh, well, Chef Dominique's actually here. He's going to interview you." My heart was beating so fast because I just thought, I am such an amateur. I know I'm starting pastry school and I'm going to learn, but I was so nervous. And it was extraordinary. And I remember that same day I was going into school for an early... Jacques Torres was going in to do a talk about chocolate.
And I remember at the end of our conversation with Dominique where he had very nicely interviewed me and given me his time, even though who was I, like how generous, and he said, "Okay, come in for a trial. What are you doing the rest of the day?" And I said, "Oh, I'm going to this Jacques Torres talk." And he said, "Oh, tell Jacques I say hello." And I just thought, I can't do that in front of the other students. Can you imagine? I go in, "Oh, hi, Chef Torres. Chef Dominique..."
So I said, "Okay yeah, I will," but I didn't. And then I went in for trial the next week, and I had never been in a professional kitchen before. My spatial awareness was terrible. I was so messy. And I remember they asked me to mix 20 kilos of Devil's food cake. And if you know that better, it is a runny, runny, runny, runny, dark cocoa coffee powder espresso chocolate batter. And I remember just thinking... And it's not that they made me feel like I couldn't ask for help.
They absolutely did. This was my own... I was just thinking, just power through. And I remember putting in all the cocoa. What do I do? I turn on the mixer. Cocoa all over me. I was obviously stressing, and I remember the head chef Noah at the time, he came over and he turned off the mixer and he was like, "Go and get changed, come back, and we'll go through this together." I really was learning from scratch, and I absolutely loved it. And even though I was terrible in that trial, I think they saw that I was enthusiastic.
And I think part of being a chef is the love for it. And I think often you can build skills, you can't build enthusiasm. So I remember at the end they said, "Okay, you can come in. You can start." And I'd been working in office jobs. So I remember going, "Okay, I'll see you. See you soon." They said, "Okay, well, you start tomorrow at 4:00 AM." I was like, oh, I thought I was going to come in at 10:00 on a Monday. Mix a few cakes. And I said, "Okay, great." And I absolutely loved it.
And it was perfect because I was living in the Lower East Side at the time above a bar called Pianos, and that actually closed at 3:00. So all the drunk people would come out at 3:00 AM. I would wake up and then I would go to work. I loved it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And so was that where you learned to make a croissant?
Nicola Lamb:
No, that wasn't. Okay, so I remember, and actually this is why croissants are so important to me in a way because his croissant was perfect, and actually every day at Dominique Ansel they did the croissant crumb check for all of his different shops. Everyone would always send a photo to Chef Dominique how their croissant was that day because he's so particular about it. And I remember I used to come in at 4:00 AM, sometimes 5:00 AM, sometimes 6:00, and I would see the lamination guy.
He was called Alex, the guy at the time. I would see him and I just would think, I could never do that. I say, "What time did you start?" He says, "Midnight." I just thought, gosh, I could never work through the night like that. And I remember thinking about it, thinking I could just never do that. I just don't have it in me. And then a few years later, when I was in between jobs and I was trying to work out what I wanted to learn next, I thought, okay, Nicola, let's see what you're made of.
Let's see if you can do it. Because I think I was 24 at the time, maybe 23 at the time, and I thought, okay, you know what? You can do this. You're a young vital person. You can go and do night shifts. And I went around London, because I was living back in London, and I tried all the different croissants from lots of different bakeries. And there was a place called the Little Bread Peddler in South London, and I went there among a lot of other places, and that was the best croissant I had in London.
And I said, okay, I'm going to work there. I'm going to do that, and that job really changed my life. I went in and I would start work at 10 PM, which is even earlier than the guy had worked in New York. And so my alarm would go off at 9:00 PM every day. I would go into work, and I would start mixing the croissant. And I would do the bake shift, and I would learn how to laminate. We made about 10,000 pastries a week there because it was supplied lots of different shops. There, I really honed in on my love of perfecting. And I loved the repetition.
Some people, it would drive them insane. It would be corporal punishment to have to go in and do the same thing every day, same, same, same, same. But for me, I absolutely loved it and I loved that I had to make the same product perfect every day because there was someone that relied on that croissant for their breakfast and how disappointing if you've been looking forward all week to having that beautiful, fresh, golden, crunchy pastry. And that was my responsibility to deliver that croissant to them, and I absolutely loved it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell people what the Dominique crumb check is. That's when he cuts the croissant and have to look at the honeycomb?
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, you do. You have to check the honeycomb. And you know what? There will be people that say, especially if you're making them at home, don't stress too much about that honeycomb. But if you are Chef Dominique Ansel, you want to make sure that all of your croissants are perfect.
That's when that honeycomb, it's open. Depending on how many turns you do, and I know we'll get into that, will depend on how open that crumb is. So it's just to check that the croissant's been laminated properly, that it's been proofed properly, that it's open to its maximum potential.
Jessie Sheehan:
How would you describe your dessert or baking style?
Nicola Lamb:
So I would say that I am quite classic, definitely influenced by French and British, absolutely. And I would say my baking style is quite detailed. So I'm very detail-oriented on the bake, exactly what that crust is going to taste like. I might not make the things that are the most ornate always. I can do the ornate thing, but I'm much more into the detail of the crackle of the crumb.
So I would say it's almost those invisible details. That's why I really care about the experience of how a cake crumb dissolves in your mouth. I mean, I do love decorating a cake. I do, but I really care about that interplay of moisture and texture and crunch. So that's what I think. So detail-oriented maybe. What do you think?
Jessie Sheehan:
I love. So I want to talk briefly about the newsletter before we jump into the book. The newsletter is Kitchen Projects. I think one of the biggest food newsletters on Substack. Incredible, over 60,000 dedicated readers. It's taking the recipe development process from behind the scenes directly to the reader, part toolkit, love letter, et cetera. Is it fair to say, in light of this desire to take the recipe development process from behind the scenes and share it, toolkit, et cetera, and I think this is also true in your new book, that you're a bit of a nerd?
Nicola Lamb:
Oh, such a nerd. Such a nerd. It's amazing I've got any friends at all. I really do want to spend a lot of time talking about why it's important to use two egg yolks instead of one egg yolk. I'm such a bad dinner party guest.
Jessie Sheehan:
No. Well, obviously since this is my podcast and this is what I do, I love it so much. Because the book too is nerdy in a sort of similar way as the newsletter, it's your debut book. It's called “Sift,” which I just love the name.
Nicola Lamb:
Thanks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Would you say that “Kitchen Projects” kind of birthed “Sift” in a sense?
Nicola Lamb:
Absolutely. When the pandemic happened and all the restaurants closed, about a year into that is when I started the newsletter. And it was a time where, you've spoken to chefs before, you'll know that the schedules are pretty punishing. They're really crazy. And you're so focused on getting that croissant or that cake out for the next day that there's not often time to stop and ask those questions. And that is when I had all this time during the pandemic, that was when I was able to say, okay, pastry shrinks sometimes.
Okay, why actually is that? Is it the lining? Is it the formulation? What is happening? And I was able to start conducting these tests and answer these questions that had plagued me for so long, because finally I had this very open schedule. And then I started thinking, okay, I want to share this information. Because for me, there's no point gatekeeping that kind of development information.
And I love that pastry chefs message me and they contact me and they say, "Thank you for testing all those different cheesecakes. I was able to use that as a jumping off point to develop my own. Now I know what ricotta is going to do in a baked cheesecake. That's really helpful." It means that they're not going in blind to it. And we all have to lift each other up and help each other. And so “Sift” is definitely all of those elements from my newsletter baked into, there we go, perfect word, sifted actually into a more concise space.
Because , newsletter is like 3,000 words every week. Really I yap, I yap, I yap, I yap. So the newsletter has been condensed into this book, all of the lessons, which I think are the most essential for success, and also the answer, those why's, the why of baking, have been put into the front section.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. Now, I want to talk about croissants. I've been so eager to discuss them on the pod and was waiting for the perfect, perfect person.
Nicola Lamb:
Amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now you're sitting in front of me. The section on croissant begins with croissant theory, lamination theory.
Nicola Lamb:
Oh yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which is kind of like best practices or tips. You say laminating croissant by hand is no joke.
Nicola Lamb:
It's pretty hard, guys.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that because professionals just use a sheeter? Is that the distinction you're making?
Nicola Lamb:
Yes. So I suppose the thing I'll say about croissants is the first thing you have to ask yourself is, why am I making croissants at home? Because there are so many amazing bakeries who've got all this equipment. Why are you doing it at home? So I like to see croissants as a craft project that you can eat. It's definitely a project. It's a labor of love.
I think it's wonderful to learn how they're made because then you can have so much respect for a local bakery to see what they're going through every night when they're baking through the night and making sure they're perfectly proofed. So I think that's why they're wonderful to make at home. I would also say about croissants is that I was making them for about two years, 10,000 a week. And then when I tried to make them at home, complete flop. And immediately I thought, what's wrong with me?
I thought I could make croissants. Why are you so bad at your job? Why are you such a bad baker? And then I realized that the recipes that are developed to work in a large scale made with these big mixers, made with these sheeters, which are the motorized rolling pins that you can throw a dough through and get it down to really thin very quickly, they are not appropriate for hand lamination. And so I had to work really hard on coming up with a recipe that would work for someone to make at home.
Jessie Sheehan:
For someone that doesn't know, can you just define lamination for us?
Nicola Lamb:
Sure. So lamination is the process of putting butter in between layers of dough. So it's alternating layers of butter, dough, butter, dough, butter, dough. It's exactly what's happening in puff pastry. Sometimes you make pie dough and put in a couple of turns and people will know that makes it extra flaky. That's lamination. Biscuits, you're also laminating the dough.
It's a little bit different, but you're also putting in these layers. I would say that's a type of lamination. But for stuff like croissants and puff pastry, you really want these defined layers, and that's why you get that beautiful open crumb and that beautiful pattern inside. All of the gaps that you see, that's where butter used to be.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're saying that laminating for croissant is harder than making puff pastry? Both are lamination because croissant are alive because of the yeast.
Nicola Lamb:
It's so annoying a croissant. I will say this, I say it with love because I love croissants and they're my favorite thing to make, but it's a dough of opposition. The yeast, you don't want it to get above four, five degrees or it'll start proofing. But think about how hard butter is at four, five. You're going to have to tell me what that is in Fahrenheit because I've got it all in Celsius in my head, but very cold.
Yeast needs to be cold. Butter needs to be pliable. So you've got these opposing forces inside your dough, which means it can be a really difficult dough to work with. And if you don't rest it long enough, then the gluten, there's just all these opposing forces, which is why it takes quite a lot of patience. And you do, I think, have to be a patient person to make croissants at home.
Jessie Sheehan:
You said that you realized when you were at home trying to make croissant from a recipe you might've used in a professional bakery, it doesn't work. You need to have a recipe that you've developed that works for hand lamination at home. And one way that you have made your recipe accessible or manageable is radically reducing the batch size.
So we're not making as many croissant, which is fine obviously for a home baker cook, and also you make it manageable because we're only doing three folds or turns, but you can do more when you're more experienced. So if we were not at home, how many would you do?
Nicola Lamb:
So it's not necessarily more turns, it's the type of turn that you do. So you can do the double and that's when you roll it out even longer. And that's another reason why I don't use the double. Because for a double turn, you need to actually make the dough longer. And I'm always for a hand lamination recipe, trying to restrict the amount of time that you spend rolling out the dough because that is when your butter heats up. That's when it starts melting. That's when you start losing your layers.
So that is the reason why I've reduced that batch size down and I only do single folds. It means you're not actually rolling it out that long for a letter fold, the single fold. You don't have to have it quite as long because it's not double backing on itself when you're folding. And so in a bakery, you might do two doubles. You might do one single, one double. So it's not necessarily that you have more turns or more layers, it's just the length and the way that you interact with dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, just to be clear, and I think this was confusing me a little, just so I understand, I understand what a letter fold is. And listeners, a letter fold is literally when you are folding up your dough like a business letter, and I know no one writes letters anymore, but just pretend. Is a single fold different than a letter fold?
Nicola Lamb:
No, that's a letter fold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, that's what I thought. Is that maybe in English?
Nicola Lamb:
It's so confusing. And that's why in the book, in the How Things Rise section, I have a really good diagram of exactly what a letter or single fold is and exactly what a double or a book fold is. So it really depends on where you've learned. Every kitchen I've worked at, everyone uses different terminology, which makes it difficult. So that's why I made sure to put a diagram in.
Jessie Sheehan:
But for our purposes today, every time we say single, we mean letter.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, but I'm going to start saying letter. I'm going to think letter. I'm the postman. I'm the postman.
Jessie Sheehan:
The other thing I loved learning, as will everyone who buys Nicola's incredible book and looks at the croissant recipe, the croissant dough can be turned into a range of pastries, crazy, versatile, and you even would use the scraps to make queen or kouign amann, which I think is amazing. You say that the scraps won't make good croissant or pain au chocolat, but great kouign amann and great buns.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
All righty. So this is a three-day recipe.
Nicola Lamb:
Buckle up, guys. It's going to be a bit of a ride.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, this is a project bake. We would not call this easy-peasy.
Nicola Lamb:
May I just say, it's three days because this is the best success at home. All of my recipes are designed to give you the best success at home. Of course, you can make croissants quicker if you wanted to. You could radically reduce all those resting times. There's so many things you could do, but the reason why I break it down into those three days is because I don't want you to be stressed. Making croissants is hard.
And once you've mastered the process and once you've done it a few times, then you'll see where are those pinch points and when you can actually, you really need to make sure you pay attention to that timing. But for the most part, all of my recipes, they're there. That's why everything has a timeline because I really want you to not stress and get a result that you're happy with. So yes, croissants, three days.
Jessie Sheehan:
So on day one, it is like 10 hours and 40 minutes, but 10 of them are basically the overnight rest. So day one, do not get anxious. You're only working for 40 minutes. Okay. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to make the dough. We're going to mix hot water and cold milk together. Question, doesn't hot water and cold milk make room temperature? Why wouldn't we just have both of them at room temp?
Nicola Lamb:
Well, you want it to be around... I haven't got the Fahrenheit.
Jessie Sheehan:
95 to 104 Fahrenheit.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes. So that is a bit hotter than room temperature or at least in my kitchen. And so the other reason why I'm quite specific about these temperatures is because all of our kitchens are different. My kitchen in London is freezing cold in the winter. So if I was to get water from my water filter, it's going to be really cold. The reason why I'm quite specific about temperature is because you really want this yeast to establish itself, and the best way to do that is to make sure you're starting with the liquids where you can adjust.
It's easier to heat up liquid than it is flour. You would risk burning your flour in the oven if you thought, oh, I'm going to get this flour a bit toasty. It's much easier to heat up the liquids, and then you're going to guarantee that your yeast is going to activate and that's going to set you up for success for the rest of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to pour the hot water and the cold milk into the bowl of a stand mixer. We're going to add bread flour. We're going to add fine salt. I feel like in the United States we talk a lot about kosher salt. Is that less of a thing in England?
Nicola Lamb:
It's not a thing at all in England.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, interesting. Okay, good to know. Good to know.
Nicola Lamb:
But it's just any kind of fine salt, so whether that's kosher or whatever you guys use.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So we're going to add bread flour, fine salt, granulated sugar. The sugar is to help activate the yeast?
Nicola Lamb:
It activates the yeast and also just seasons your dough a bit. It just helps balance it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And then instant yeast, which I adore. I'm all about instant yeast. And are you using that rather than active dry just because it cuts out that process of proofing?
Nicola Lamb:
I've actually found it harder in recent years to find that active dry. I think that people are moving more towards instant yeast. Especially as a recipe writer, and I'm sure you'll find this when you've done yeasted recipes, it's just so much easier to be able to go straight into that recipe. I do say though, if you only have active dry, please make sure that you test it before you start just because there's nothing worse, and I've done this before.
I was actually doing, oh my goodness, Jessie, I was doing this croissant testing for this wonderful restaurateur. And what did I use? I used dead yeast. And I was supposed to do a tasting the next day and none of my pastries rose just because I missed out that step. And he was so nice about it. He said, "Okay, let's just come back tomorrow." And I thought, okay, I have to really go. I was like, yep, I will start again from scratch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Don't make me!
Nicola Lamb:
But I tested it, even sometimes my instant yeast. If I'm in that kind of scenario, I'll just give it a little activation.
Jessie Sheehan:
I keep mine in the freezer.
Nicola Lamb:
Oh, we used to do that at restaurants and stuff. I use my yeast so quickly that I don't see a need to, but that's something my mom does. She keeps hers in the fridge now because I told her I think after working for... I came back to London after being at Dominique Ansel for about a month to visit my parents, and I was like, you've got to keep your yeast in the freezer, mom. So she now still does.
Jessie Sheehan:
She's like, okay.
Nicola Lamb:
Also, I've taught her really badly, she now cuts all of her croissants in half to check the honeycomb.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my god, I can't believe she makes them.
Nicola Lamb:
No, no, no. She's at a cafe she does it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, that is my hilarious.
Nicola Lamb:
I'm like, "Mom, stop asking them for a serrated knife."
Jessie Sheehan:
She's like, "I need to check the honeycomb before I eat it."
Nicola Lamb:
I know. She'll be at Starbucks and she'll get a croissant. She'll be like, "Look at the crumb." I'm like, "Okay, mom, don't worry, you don't need to check that one."
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God, that is hilarious. I love your mom. So we're going to mix all of this together slowly using the paddle attachment. And once combined, we'll switch to the hook. Mix for a minute on low speed until well combined. Now we're going to add softened unsalted butter. Are we adding all at once?
Nicola Lamb:
You can add all at once. It's just a small amount. Not all croissant recipes have butter in the dough, but it just helps with flavor and it also helps extensibility, I think, and it helps the texture of the dough. You actually want your dough to be quite similar texture to your butter. And I think by putting a bit of butter in your dough, you're kind of emulating the texture of the butter, because that is why during lamination you'll have a much easier time to combine them if they're similar.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to mix for three to four minutes on medium speed until smooth, will create this large stiff dough. Then we'll remove the dough from the mixer, smooth it into a ball. Rest it covered for 30 minutes at room temp. What are we covering with?
Nicola Lamb:
Oh, I just use the mixer bowl. I take it out and then I just put the mixer bowl on top. You can also use cling wrap or whatever you've got, but I think just the bowl on top. I actually always have a lot of big bowls in my kitchen, some plastic, some glass, just to cover doughs because I actually think it's the nicest way to proof things.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to let it proof under our bowl for 30 minutes at room temp, and it'll be somewhat puffed. So not dramatically and active. When you say active, what do you mean?
Nicola Lamb:
We just want to know that yeast is alive. Anytime you're making a croissant, you need to know early on that your yeast is getting established. You can actually push... Some bakeries, they do this first proof to develop flavor, et cetera, for a really long time. But all I want to know for this croissant, is my yeast alive? Because if you skip this step, it can be a real struggle to get the yeast to take across the whole dough and proofing later is much harder.
So if you do some of the proofing up front, make sure that yeast is active, make sure that it's happy and it's starting to chomp down on all of the sugars and the starches, that way you just know yourself up for successful later and things are going to proof a lot quicker.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to split our dough into three portions. We're going to shape each into a rectangle. Wrap in reusable plastic bags or something very well sealed. We're now going to put that dough or those little bags into the fridge for about eight to 10 hours or overnight. Dough will expand overnight, which will show us that it's alive.
This was an interesting thing about lamination for croissant because of the yeast, all the rest for gluten relaxation have to happen in the fridge or the yeast ferments and the butter will warm up. I thought that was very... It's not with regular yeasted dough maybe where you'd leave it on your counter.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
No.
Nicola Lamb:
That's why croissants are so annoying. You've got really these opposing forces. They cause you problems all the way to the end. Trust me. But it's worth it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now it's day two, we're going to laminate our dough. So the first thing we're going to do is make our butter block, which is the block of butter that we're going to wrap our dough around, and we have to work quickly. We need to cut very cold butter. And you say that it's really important to use a good quality butter, at least 80% butter fat for the best end product.
So we're going to cut very cold butter into strips, lay them into an approximate rectangle shape on a piece of parchment. So what is the tool that we're cutting the butter into strips? And I'm assuming since we're going to be playing with the size, we don't have to worry too much about the size of the strip at this point.
Nicola Lamb:
At this point, not too much. I just use a bench scrapper. I'm obsessed with my metal bench scraper.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think it's the best tool for cutting butter.
Nicola Lamb:
Absolutely. The reason why we also want to not make our butter block in advance is that once we've pounded it into shape, that is when it's going to its most pliable. The moment you start making your butter block in advance, you put it in the fridge, you put it in the freezer, it might harden on the outside. It might be soft in the middle still.
And so for people that are just starting out, I always say make your butter block when you're ready to use it. So what we used to do at the bakery as well, we would shape all of our butter blocks and then put them to one side. We would never do them in advance.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have that note. Pop in the freezer or fridge to rest while you roll out the dough.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, but not too long.
Jessie Sheehan:
And yeah, and do not prepare your butter block until you're ready to laminate because you want that block to be bendy. You don't want it to snap or break, and you do not want it to be greasy before you laminate.
Nicola Lamb:
Because people actually will say, "Oh, I'm really worried about my butter being too warm," but actually your butter being too cold is actually just as much of a problem. It will splinter. And even though you'll still get something that looks nice, it will still be tasty, you'll have the butter instead of it staying in one long piece that's flowing all of those layers, it's going to shatter and you'll get something where you think, oh, why did I spend all this time laminating?
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to have those strips of butter on our parchment. We're going to fold the parchment paper around the butter in an approximate five by six and a half inch shape. I assume we're using a metal kitchen ruler situation.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah, I'm obsessed. I also have one of those really soft fabric tape.
Jessie Sheehan:
Measuring tape almost.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah, and I made sure that they were in the photos in the book.
Jessie Sheehan:
We've smooshed it. That's a technical term. Folded our paper around the butter.
Nicola Lamb:
I did use smoosh and splurge and all those kinds of words throughout the book.
Jessie Sheehan:
In this approximate shape. And then we're going to use a rolling pin to tap or squash our butter into shape, rolling over it several times to ensure that it's even. Is there a particular type of rolling pin? Do you like tapered? Do you handles?
Nicola Lamb:
One of my favorite rolling pins is actually a really, really light dumpling rolling pin. And when I'm working on a dough that's quite small, it will depend. I like using that because it doesn't hurt my hands because it's such light wood. If you have a really hard wood rolling pin and you're using it a lot, it can be quite hard on your palms. So I have a very light one that I picked up in Chinatown in London that I'm obsessed with.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to neaten our shape, smooth our butter block. Like we said, we're going to pop it in the freezer, but just while we rest out the dough, not for any longer. The ideal butter temp for laminating is about 52 to 57 degrees. That's when your butter still has plasticity and movement, but it's not greasy. We don't want it to smudge, but we want it to be bendable. For beautiful layers in your pastry is this, do not make croissant on a hot day.
Nicola Lamb:
I would say, you know what? If you're really experienced, you'll learn exactly what that dough feels like. But if it's the first or second time or even third time you're making them, just don't stress yourself out. Make a lovely brioche. Brioche loves being made on a warm day. It will rise beautifully. Make buns, make cinnamon buns, but just wait. Croissants, a nice mild day I would say is the best.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to get our dough from the fridge. The way the dough feels right now after its overnight rest in the fridge is actually the ideal texture consistency that we want to maintain at all times of our croissant lamination. The butter will be a warmer temperature, but it still is going to feel the same. I thought that was a great tip from the theory. Now we're going to lock our butter.
So we're going to roll the dough out to about six and a half inches by 12 inches, which is about double the size of the butter block. Do we need bench flour? I know you said that you have to be very careful about adding flour because then layers won't adhere to each other. But do you need a little flour on your work surface before we roll out right now?
Nicola Lamb:
It will really depend on your confidence with the dough. I would say I might scatter a little bit, but it will depend on how the dough is feeling. If it's feeling a bit tacky and you just want that insurance policy, it's not going to hurt. When we used to laminate in the bakery, we'd sometimes throw a touch of flour. But sometimes when I'm at home and the dough feels just right, it shouldn't stick.
There's nothing in that dough that should be sticky. It's a relatively dry dough. I think the hydration is just... That's the amount of liquid to flour is about 50%. So it's not going to be sticky. It's not like a focaccia, which is going to stick everywhere. Even if you look at it, it will stick.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to roll it out to about a quarter inch thick. And as you said in those beginning theories for lamination and croissant, that's the approximate thickness that we're always looking for through lamination. So always remember, a quarter inch. Again, we've said this now a couple of times, but it's so important, when laminating, pay attention to the temperature and the plasticity of the butter and the dough.
That's mostly, and you have already flagged this a little, people's refrigerators and environments are so different. You just can't rely on the times that are given in a recipe for resting. You really have to use your, feel your senses.
Nicola Lamb:
Absolutely. And that's why I try and put in those touch points, which is just try and really have a press and a feel early on and try and get in tune and try and memorize that because that's going to help you later.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to place our butter block, which is pliable yet cold, not greasy, in the middle of the dough. We're going to bring the top and bottom parts of the dough over the butter block to meet in the middle. Pinching the dough together to close the butter in.
Nicola Lamb:
It's like wrapping a really good present.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the seam should be horizontal. So basically the long side of the butter block and the long side of the dough are facing us because we are folding over and over.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And then it'll be about six and a half by six inches.
Nicola Lamb:
You know what's really interesting is that a lot of diagrams that I used to look at and the explanation I'd seen online, they would often show the dough horizontally. And I thought, well, no one rolls from left to right in their kitchen. You roll top to bottom in front of you. And so when we did the diagrams for this book, I made sure that the dough looked how it looked when you were rolling it because it just was so unintuitive to me because I would find that I couldn't flip it 90 degrees in my head.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so smart, and I know exactly what you mean. So now we're going to turn the dough 90 degrees. So the seam is now vertical. It was horizontal. Now it's going to be vertical. And we're going to press down on the dough with our rolling pin, leaving indentations along the length of the dough. And this helps fuse together the butter and the dough, and it also lengthens the dough, but without heating it up. Because you could do it with your hands, but we don't want to.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly. You're going to start beating up your dough a bit and it will feel so wrong because you know it's a labor of love, but you do need to give it a bit of a tap. It's sort of like a hard tap with a rolling pin and you'll see it magically lengthen in front of you. It's a fun part. It's stress relieving.
Jessie Sheehan:
I do that sometimes when I have pie dough. And I first take it out of the refrigerator after it's rested, before I'm going to start rolling, I will hit it with the rolling pin.
Nicola Lamb:
And it just helps it be pliable. As you said, it adheres the layers. It's a useful trick.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to roll the dough to nearly three times its length, so it's going to be about six inches by 16 inches. And again, just to be clear, we are rolling in front of us and we are rolling the dough so it's like a long rectangle in front of us with the shortest side nearest us.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. Yeah, it's so helpful when you can visualize it at the same time as talking about it.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah, totally.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to perform a single fold, which is a letter fold.
Nicola Lamb:
Letter fold. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we will either bring the bottom up first or the top down first. Well, you tell us, which way do you like? Do you like to bring the bottom up and then the top over it?
Nicola Lamb:
I think I might do it the other way.
Jessie Sheehan:
Top first.
Nicola Lamb:
I think I'm versatile in that area actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it doesn't really matter. I don't know why I'm getting into that.
Nicola Lamb:
That's really important though because I think with croissants, I think it's really easy to go what matters because they are this thing that people think, I could never make that a home. And until someone tells you what matters, you don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's true. This was a little confusing for me. So now our dough is in a letter fold position.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the top has come down or the bottom has gone up. Letter fold in front of us. And you say to cut on the right edge of the dough where it is folded to release tension. But aren't the folds top and bottom?
Nicola Lamb:
So if you're imagining it like this, we are cutting here. If you can see... I wish I could show you.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. I wish you could see it.
Nicola Lamb:
Basically where you have the dough folded over, where it's kind of curved, you just want to slice down there. It's not an essential thing and it's actually something that will just help you keep the dough in shape later. Because if you're imagining that you are folding the dough over itself, it goes around a curved bend, you just want to cut where that curved bend is and basically you end up having three almost separate pieces.
Jessie Sheehan:
I understood where it was being cut. My only question was the right confused me, right versus left, because I would think the fold is on the top. I'm thinking if we folded it...
Nicola Lamb:
Oh, did we turn it 90 degrees yet?
Jessie Sheehan:
No, but I want to say that. I bet that's why it's on the right.
Nicola Lamb:
I think that's why. Yeah, yeah. We turned it.
Jessie Sheehan:
We figured it out, peeps. We figured it out. Okay, going back now.
Nicola Lamb:
I'm going to go back and read that and messaging my editor.
Jessie Sheehan:
So to be clear, so we performed our letter fold. Now we are going to do a turn so that one of those folded over sides is on the right and we are going to take a knife.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes. I use a little serrated knife. I don't know if you have the brand Victorinox here.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Nicola Lamb:
Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with those tomato knives. Do you have one? I'm going to send you one if you don't have one, because I use it to cut everything in the kitchen. My most used little tiny, sharp serrated knife. That's really good for working with doughs.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you write, I love this, you're cutting where it's folded to release that tension. And so now it's almost like it's stacked. You can see. I love that. Now we're going to wrap the dough. Rest in the fridge for 45 minutes. This is the rest of the dough. It's between the first and second letter folds and it's our longest. So we need that 45 minutes. We can go a little shorter on our second and third folds.
Nicola Lamb:
That's the opposite actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, sorry.
Nicola Lamb:
It's the opposite. You actually need to be quite careful. The reason why the resting is shortest on the first one is because your butter is still relatively thick and we still need to be concerned about whether that butter hardens too much and cracks. So if you were to do that first fold, if you think about it, that butter is still relatively thick.
It gets too cold, and then you go to roll it out and that butter will splinter. Whereas when you get to the next fold, the butter is getting thinner and thinner each time, which means that it's going to be much more pliable and it's going to warm up much quicker each time.
Jessie Sheehan:
You can grab it. You don't have to wait.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah, you can relax after the next one. The first fold between those ones, that is when you need to be on your game, I would say. And then the other one's less risky.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, so now we're going to make sure the dough has been rotated. So wherever that cut that we made is we want to turn that 90 degrees.
Nicola Lamb:
You just always want to make sure that you're rolling your dough in the opposite direction that you did the last time. Because there is only for a dough, there is only so... Those gluten chains, imagine them as a rubber band. There's only so far that you can stretch them before it can get tense and then it can break, or it actually just won't stretch any further, whereas it can roll in the other direction. So you really just want to be alternating how you're putting pressure on your dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's a great way to think about it. The most important thing is just make sure you are rolling out the dough in a different direction than you rolled it before.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to press down on the dough to leave those indentations with a rolling pin again. Roll out the dough to the same size as before. Perform another letter fold. Repeat the cut on the right edge of the... Well, rotate, cut, and back in the fridge.
Nicola Lamb:
Everyone's pros by now. They'll just be doing those folds. Easy peasy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Now we're going to rest for maybe an hour, an hour and a half. Again, we're going to make sure that the dough is rotated 90 degrees. We'll repeat the pressing down on the dough to leave an indentation and do another fold. That is our third fold. Lamination complete.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
We did it.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly. Basically there you are. You've made croissants.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to rest the dough in the freezer overnight. And then great tip, thaw it for at least two hours in the refrigerator. This is a Nicola tip for the best final product. Freezing laminated dough for at least four hours. Thawing in the fridge. It completely stops the yeast in its tracks before final shaping.
Nicola Lamb:
Final shaping is quite intensive, as we'll talk about. And so you really want to get yourself in the best position. You want that dough to be cold so you're not battling with your butter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now it's assembling, proofing, and baking. And you warn us that the croissant, it's an unforgiving shape. So we're going to take our time, and we're not going to rush the proofing. We're going to take our thawed dough from the fridge. We're going to make sure the dough is rotated 90 degrees. So whatever edge we cut has now moved over. Or as you said, I'm just going to simplify it, we're going to make sure that we are rolling out in a different direction than we rolled out during that final fold. We're going to roll the dough out quite large. Well, not quite large, but...
Nicola Lamb:
It's a small dough, so as large as it can be.
Jessie Sheehan:
Roll out dough to be about 10 and a quarter inches in length. We do not want to fight the dough. You can always put it in the fridge to rest, well-wrapped, 20 minutes before continuing. This may be just a language thing, but I was a little confused. You say you want to work the dough crosswise. Does work the dough, do you mean roll it?
Nicola Lamb:
Yes. Oh, so it means that let's say if you're rolling top to bottom, it means now start going left to right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, yeah.
Nicola Lamb:
Maybe that is a British thing. That's so funny.
Jessie Sheehan:
We would probably say now roll crosswise. I knew what you meant. I just wanted to clarify.
Nicola Lamb:
What's I think they say America and the U.K., it's the countries separated by a common language.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, exactly. That's funny. I've never heard that. So we're going to work our dough or roll our dough crosswise until it's about one and five-eighth to one and a quarter inch thick. We're going to trim the edges of the dough to reveal the lamination, and then we will reserve that...
Nicola Lamb:
And take a moment to clap for yourself because you've done such a good job.
Jessie Sheehan:
Give yourself a hug. So now we're going to cut out some long triangles. Each one is approximately three and a quarter by nine and a half inches and weighs, there's a weight for each triangle, about 80 to 95 grams. So I wonder, do you recommend weighing the entire piece of dough and dividing it up so that each one is exactly the same weight?
Nicola Lamb:
I would just do it by size 100%. If there's a little bit of variation also, this is a handmade product, if there's a five gram variation, you're not going to be sending your honeycomb check to Chef Dominique.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or to Chef Nicola's mother.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly. Doctor turned croissant criticker. I would say just always do it by the size, because you might have lost a bit of dough. You might have trimmed it a bit more. I don't want people to stress about maybe they've trimmed it slightly more than someone else. So that's why I give a range and just do it by measurement.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to rest the shapes for 20 minutes in the fridge. Are we resting them on a parchment lined baking sheet?
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah. You can make sure that... I guess the only thing that happens in the fridge is they can get a bit crusty if you've got a very cold, airy fridge circulating. American fridges are very, very cold. They're amazing. So just make sure it's covered so you don't get crusty bits.
Jessie Sheehan:
And are we covering with cling wrap or plastic wrap?
Nicola Lamb:
You can use cling wrap. You can parchment. You could put another tray on top. Just anything that's preventing a lot of air circulation.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. And I think this is your point, you write in one of the theories, probably the croissant theory, maybe the lamination theory, about the final rollout. And I think this is one of your tips, just give it this extra rest right now. Just to go back to cutting out the long triangles, what tool are we using?
Nicola Lamb:
I usually use a ruler. And then you can either use a kitchen knife. If you've got a really nice long chef's knife, you can do it in one cut. If not, I use a very sharp knife and you just trim along.
Jessie Sheehan:
So not like a pizza cutter?
Nicola Lamb:
You could use, but I've... Have you ever met a pizza cutter that actually cuts through dough or anything? Because I haven't.
Jessie Sheehan:
Not without attaching itself to the dough, so then you're pushing the pizza cutter.
Nicola Lamb:
Do you know what? If you've got the magical pizza cutter, use that. It looks cool as well. It feels good, but I personally don't have a good one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So now we're going to stretch each triangle slightly and then roll up the triangle from the flat end to the pointy end. Roll it up on itself without crushing the layers. We're aiming for as many rotations as possible. And this was a great note you gave earlier, which is why the proofing of a croissant takes longer than the proofing of other pastries because it's hard to proof every single rotation.
Nicola Lamb:
All the way into the middle. You got to get all the way in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to place the croissant on a baking sheet lined with parchment paper with the tails tucked underneath, lightly cover with a large bowl at this point.
Nicola Lamb:
Some people have those big Tupperware containers. Maybe you go to cookouts. Maybe you take dinner rolls to someone's house. You can have these big containers just to put over the top. Maybe you've just moved house. Maybe you've got those big Rubbermaid containers that can go over, or you can use your oven, which I know that we can talk about. Just anything, any kind of chamber because you really want your croissant to stay supple.
Because the moment that the outside gets a crust, as it's expanding, it's going to rip. It's going to break. That yeast is going to start getting to work. And if the outside isn't supple, then it will just crack and it will physically break. And then you'll have a croissant that kind of looks like a croissant around the bottom third and looks more like a, I don't know, a funnel at the top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you quickly tell us about using the oven because I didn't...
Nicola Lamb:
Of course. Oven as proofing chamber is so brilliant because it's a sealed box. And it's really good for doughs because you can get the light on in the oven and that actually warms it very, very slightly. But my favorite thing to do is to get a pan of water. You can boil the kettle if you want. I know that you don't have as kettles as much in the U.S., but in the U.K., you can just do your kettle on, or you can heat up some water in a small saucepan, and you can put it at the bottom of the oven.
And then what that's going to do, it's going to add steam. And again, it's that lovely humid environment. If you go to a bakery, you'll see these amazing proofing chambers that they've got, and those are exactly the right temperature. They'll be like 29.3 degrees and they'll have 20% humidity. And so we can't be as exact as that at home, but we can semi recreate it. I would say what I suggest to do, and there's a diagram of it in the book, is I heat up my water until steaming. Put it in the bottom.
Jessie Sheehan:
So not boiling?
Nicola Lamb:
If it's boiling, it actually can heat up that chamber too much.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's what I was worried about.
Nicola Lamb:
It can depend, and that's why I actually say put it in and then leave it for about 10, 15 minutes and just let the temperature come down to a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wit the oven closed.
Nicola Lamb:
With the oven closed. And when you open it, it's going to look like a sauna. It's going to be a steam room. There's going to be drips of water everywhere, which is exactly what you want because then your croissant can expand without worrying about getting dry skin and it cracking. So yeah, that's how I would do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
If we're using our oven as a proofing chamber, no light, steam some water, put it in a dish, put it into the oven, close the door, 10 minutes, and then we can... This would work for anything.
Nicola Lamb:
If you have a digital thermometer, do check. Think about butter. Butter is going to be completely melted by about, I don't know the Fahrenheit, but in about 30, 31, that's going to be way too hot for croissants. The butter is just going to melt completely. So if you have a digital thermometer, just stick it in there for like a minute or two and just check. Because you don't want all of that hard work, you don't want to undo it with it too hot.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we want to proof until our croissant are jiggly, about two to four and a half hours, just depending. Croissants need the longest proof, as I said, because of all those rotations. Hard to proof those little squirrels. Not squirrels, swirls.
Nicola Lamb:
I love that, the squirrels. That's cute.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you actually recommend underproofing. So we're going to take out from our makeshift chamber 30 minutes before baking while we're heating our oven to 425. And I love this. We'll know the croissant are proofed when it's almost like they're filled with air, they jiggle a little, and they're doubled in size.
Nicola Lamb:
You really can shake the tray and they should wobble really pleasingly. They look great.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to gently brush the croissant with an egg wash. And I love that your wash contains salt because as does mine, no liquid, just the salt to break down the white and make it easier to brush.
Nicola Lamb:
Exactly. She knows, everybody. Jessie knows.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to turn the oven down to 400. Tell us why we start high and then go down.
Nicola Lamb:
When you put anything laminated into the oven, you really want that initial shock of heat because that's going to help the butter turn into steam, and it will evaporate and create those layers. So with home ovens, especially because the home ovens are actually very vented, a lot of hot air escapes, so the moment you open your oven, you can be in trouble and it starts dropping.
So as an insurance policy for home bakers, I always start hotter and that's when you put it in. It will probably drop to the perfect temperature and then you're going to make sure you get that hit of heat.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll turn down to 400. We'll bake the croissant for about 18 minutes, rotating after 12 if needed. When you say if needed, is that just because some ovens have hot spots? Yeah, mine I have to rotate.
Nicola Lamb:
Yeah, but don't open it before 12. That's why I say it's more than half into the baking process. Because if you start turning it too early, they're going to collapse because they're fragile structures, croissants are.
Jessie Sheehan:
And what are we looking for? It looks to me, unless I miss something, that the signal for them being ready is just time.
Nicola Lamb:
Just color.
Jessie Sheehan:
Color and time. So we want them to be golden brown?
Nicola Lamb:
I like a nice dark bake on my croissants. Some people might look at my croissants and go, "Ooh, that looks burnt." But for me it's perfect. You can go by color. Some people only bake their croissants for 16 minutes. Some people do 20 minutes. It really just depends on what you like. Because remember, you've made these croissants, you need to make them how you want.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you've written that they should feel light, like incredibly light. In the book, which is fantastic, you offer lots of diagnoses for why they might not be that. When you say they should feel light, incredibly light, do you mean literally we could pick one up from the oven and test it and if it feels light?
Nicola Lamb:
Well, let them cool slightly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Nicola Lamb:
Get them cool slightly. Because also once they're baked, there's nothing you can do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Nicola Lamb:
Do you know what I mean?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Nicola Lamb:
Once the croissant is baked, you can't go back. You can't unbake it. You can't overbake it. Everything that you've done for the croissant has actually happened in that lamination process and that proofing process. The baking is important, but really the structure is put in early. So it's a really good way to know if you've had a "successful" croissant because they will feel light because that butter has evaporated, the steam has evaporated, and it will be surprisingly light.
And so once they've cooled slightly, we get a tea towel and you can just lift them up and you'll be surprised at how light it is. That's how I would know if my croissants have been successful when I was doing all these tests before I even cut it open with how light they felt. Go to any bakery and you'll be like, wow, that is actually light considering how much butter is in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to let them cool completely on the baking sheet. And they're best enjoyed within two to three hours of baking.
Nicola Lamb:
I'm afraid so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh! Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Nicola. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Nicola Lamb:
Oh my gosh! You're my cherry pie. You're my croissant pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. Exactly. You're my croissant. You're my light as air croissant.
Nicola Lamb:
Yes, you are.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.