Sarah Hymanson & Sara Kramer Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. I have been on the road a lot over the past few weeks. Vegas, San Francisco, Portland, Oregon, Atlanta. It's been a lot of fun. I have eaten a lot of great food and met a lot of amazing people.
While I was in Los Angeles, I sat down with today's guests, Sara Kramer and Sarah Hymanson, the chef-owners behind Kismet Restaurant and Kismet Rotisserie. Cherry Bombe has been following Sara and Sarah's careers for the past decade, and we are big fans of their approach to food, seasonality, and hospitality. Stay tuned to learn what Sara and Sarah have been up to and for all the details on their brand new cookbook, “Kismet: Bright, Fresh, Vegetable-Loving Recipes.” I have been waiting for this book for a long time. There's so many recipes in there I can't wait to make. I'm excited for you to get to know Sara and Sarah, so stay tuned for our conversation.
This episode of Radio Cherry Bombe is supported by OpenTable. As you may know, we've been on the road this summer with OpenTable for our Sit With Us community dinner series, which highlighted amazing female chefs and restaurateurs in the Cherry Bombe and OpenTable networks. Thank you to everyone who joined us and to the amazing chefs and teams at the featured restaurants. We kicked things off in early June in New Orleans with Chef Melissa Araujo at Alma, and then we headed to Atlanta for an evening with Le Bon Nosh with Chef Forough Vakili. Last week we were in Dallas at José with Chef Anastacia Quiñones-Pittman, and we had a sweet ending to our series last night at Nostrana in Portland, Oregon with Chef Cathy Whims. It was such a treat meeting so many of you. Beautiful food, beautiful people, it's been so much fun. Thank you to OpenTable for bringing these experiences to life with us. By the way, if you are interested in curated dining events like the Sit With Us dinners, check out the OpenTable experiences on their app and website. Head to opentable.com/experiences to explore what's happening near you or use it to find fun events to enjoy on your travels. Like OpenTable Summer Sets, a dinner series that combines music and food to create one-of-a-kind evenings in cities like Portland, Oregon, Miami and New Orleans.
Today's episode is also supported by Pernod Ricard, creators of conviviality. Pernod Ricard is a worldwide leader in the spirits and wine industry and embraces the spirit of conviviality, as we all should. And is focused firmly on a sustainable and responsible future. Their prestigious portfolio of brands includes classic names beloved by bartenders and mixologists around the world. There's the Glenlivet single Malt Scotch, Martell Cognac and Código 1530 Tequila just to name a few. If you are a regular listener you know my preferred drink is always bubbles, so I love a glass of Perrier-Jouët champagne to kick off a special night out, and I also love a champagne cocktail. My favorite is a French 75, which you can make with Perrier-Jouët Grand Brut, and some Malfy Gin. That sounds lovely, doesn't it? To learn more about Pernod Ricard, head to pernod-ricard.com. And don't forget, always drink responsibly.
Now, let's hear from today's guests. Sara and Sarah, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Sara Kramer:
So excited to be here.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so thrilled. We're here in L.A. talking to you, which is great. Donna and from Cherry Bombe and I had dinner at Kismet last night. I always do try to go into Kismet. I'm only here a few times a year, but Kismet is always one of my first stops. And when I'm here I crave vegetables and you absolutely deliver.
Sara Kramer:
Love to hear that. Thank you.
Sarah Hymanson:
Thanks so much for being a fan.
Kerry Diamond:
Sara Kramer, we've known you since 2013. We both launched at the same time. Cherry Bombe was born that year and you hit a big on the New York food scene. You were the chef at a place called Glasserie and were getting a lot of attention for what you were doing.
Sara Kramer:
Right. Yeah. That was a very interesting moment, but it's nice to, I think, be at this stage now and look back and understand it all better.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to talk about something really fun, and I think everybody always asks you about this, Sara, but you were in “Mamma Mia” on Broadway.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
We need to talk about this for all our Broadway fans out there. Not just our Broadway fans, our “Mamma Mia” fans.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, right.
Kerry Diamond:
Who did you play and what was your big number or moment on stage?
Sara Kramer:
Well, so I started on tour. I got the show when I was 17, and I did it for two and a half years. I was on tour first for a year and a half, and then on Broadway for a year, and I played Sophie, the Amanda Seyfried character. I got really lucky. I went to an open call. I had six callbacks over the course of a year. Yeah, it just happened. It was very whirlwindy.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you go to performing arts? Were you a Broadway kid?
Sara Kramer:
I did a lot of extracurriculars. I was very dedicated to it between a program in New York called Applause, which may be some people out there have heard of. I went to Stagedoor Manor, the theater camp. I had done it at school. I took every opportunity to be in every show, both... I grew up in Nyack, which is just outside the city in New York, so every opportunity to perform at the RIP Helen Hayes Theatre that was there and lots of other things. Just was in three shows at once throughout my whole young life.
Kerry Diamond:
You were a real theater kid.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, big time.
Kerry Diamond:
What's it like being on Broadway? It's also for my mother, who's the biggest Broadway fan.
Sara Kramer:
I mean, it was incredible. It was hard to put it in context. Being so young and having kind exclusively dedicated myself to theater and performance at that time. And then it just seemed like the next step. And I knew it was on obviously a much bigger stage. I think that tour was much more of an eye-opener than even Broadway was because you're in a different city every week and the conditions change all the time. The audiences are really different. You're seeing the whole country.
It made me grow up in certain ways really, really, really quickly because I had just graduated high school when I got the tour. It was incredible and also really challenging. I was the youngest in the cast by far in both companies. And I think I was very much trying to be an adult, but certainly not one. Yeah, I would say that I wouldn't ever change it and I don't regret making that decision, but definitely put me in a pretty different category from all of my peers.
Kerry Diamond:
We will talk about Kismet in just a sec, but it's so interesting that you're on Broadway because there are so many parallels between Broadway and restaurants.
Sara Kramer:
There really are. And Sarah and I have talked about it a lot, but the idea of it's game time, it's show time, very, very similar in restaurants. And the idea that cooking in a kitchen is very performance-based. My skill set and my history lent itself pretty naturally to feeling very comfortable and feeling like I could excel in a kitchen space and the intensity of it and everything. There is so much.
Kerry Diamond:
Sarah H, any theater background?
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, did a bunch of theater as a kid, but I was an acrobat later on in my existence.
Kerry Diamond:
You just made a hand gesture. I thought you were going to say, "I was an actor."
Sarah Hymanson:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
An acrobat?
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah. I did theater and I always had a few lines, maybe one little solo in a song, but I was never the lead in any plays. Then I was an acrobat from when I was-
Kerry Diamond:
Like Cirque du Soleil?
Sarah Hymanson:
I wasn't in Cirque du Soleil, but yes, ala Cirque du Soleil. I did flying trapeze and silks, which is like the fabric that hangs the ceiling. There was no acro yoga at the time, so I was really enmeshed in a world of people that were born and raised in the circus. That was a very big part of my world as a teenager.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk food stuff. Sara Kramer, you burst onto the culinary scene, like I said, around the same time as Cherry Bombe back in 2013. You were the chef of a very buzzy restaurant in Brooklyn and getting a lot of attention. You suddenly announced you were leaving and eventually wound up in L.A. I remember the exact moment I read that you were leaving and everyone was shocked. For people who have some big life decisions ahead of them, can you go back and talk about your thought process?
Sara Kramer:
I think I'm a little impulsive and I think I would be less so now. I think I didn't have as much zoom out quality to my thought process as I would now. After a long time of thinking. I didn't know. I had been working head down in kitchens from the time I was 21. I don't think I really knew that much about food media. I don't think I knew that much about the awards processes. I don't think I knew that much about attention generally.
I think I was just like, "Oh, this isn't making me happy. I'm working really hard and I don't feel appreciated in the way I want to be appreciated. And I want to make a different decision," and so I did. And I think it also speaks to the way I feel about partnership. That is a through line actually I think between then and now in terms of what I really expect from a partner, I'm lucky that I think Sarah and I have really built something strong that has a lot of communication and a lot of mutual appreciation. That has been a really amazing experience in silver lining to the entire journey.
But yeah, I think that advice to other people facing similarly large decisions, I would say talk to a lot of people before you make them. People in your world who might have a little bit more perspective than you do, but I think generally go with your gut.
Kerry Diamond:
It's interesting you say that because in retrospect, it seems like you did make the right decision because also at the time almost your entire staff quit with you, including Sarah Hymanson. You were there as this was going down.
Sarah Hymanson:
I was there. I guess for me, there was no reason why I would've stayed if Sara wasn't there. I had no attachment to that place or the ownership or anything related to it. Once Sara and I started talking about leaving and doing something on our own, there was nothing that would've kept me there, especially. I'm not a very impulsive person generally, but I didn't have anything planned and I was in a very open place in my life at the time and I wasn't in a romantic partnership. And was interested in doing my own thing, interested in creative partnership and general collaboration. And really found a kinship in our relationship and what we had started to build. And the idea of continuing to do that and doing something new and exciting really worked for me.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guests. The steamy summer is upon us, and I know it is hot, hot, hot where almost all of you are. I always have a hard time trying to figure out what to wear when the temperature rises. And that's one reason I love Alex Mill, the brand known for classic tailored pieces. They have lots of great items to keep you looking fresh and feeling cool this summer. Head to alexmill.com and check out their linen shop for breezy dresses, cute crossback tank tops, and very of the moment linen vests with matching shorts. We shot the Madeline linen vest in twill for our recent cover portfolio and I loved it so much I went out and bought one for myself with a matching jacket and I have already worn it over a dozen times. While you're on Alex Mills website, be sure to check out another one of my favorites, their tote bags. I have the Alex Mill Perfect Weekend bag in natural and I lug it everywhere, from the subway to the beach. There's more to discover from their women's and men's collections, including the new Alex Mill jeans line and lots of items under $200, all well-made timeless pieces you'll love for a long time to come. If you're in New York City, you can stop either shops in SoHo or the Upper East Side and explore the world of Alex Mill for yourself. Tell them Cherry Bombe sent you.
A little housekeeping. We have three fun events coming up. There's the Women Who Grill demo and dinner on Friday, July 12th with Elizabeth Poett of “Ranch to Table” on the Magnolia Network. That will take place at Elizabeth's Rancho San Julian in Santa Barbara County. Then on Friday, July 26th, we'll be with Chef Camille Becerra, author of the new book, “Bright Cooking” for a special dinner at the Sound View Hotel in Greenport on the north fork of Long Island. Then on Friday August 2nd, we are headed to Portland, Maine for dinner at Crown Jewel restaurant with Chef Alex Wight. I'll be at all three of these events and can't wait to see everybody. Tickets are on sale at cherrybombe.com. Thank you to our event sponsors, Kerrygold, Le Creuset and Pernod Ricard.
When did L.A. come up as a possible destination for the two of you?
Sara Kramer:
Early 2014, I had gone to L.A. with my boyfriend at the time. Because he's from here we had visited and I was like, "Oh, L.A. is different from what I expected it to be. It seems very cool." Felt like there was a lot of opportunity here and felt like you could do something small. I don't know if L.A. is actually the way that I perceived it then, but it definitely felt at the time an exciting opportunity to be like, "Oh, here's this place that's beautiful with access to incredible product and produce that's really aligned with the style of food that I cook and the kind of food that I'd like to cook. It feels possible."
It's like at the time Silver Lake was still undeveloped and I was like, "Oh, it'd be cool to just have a little project here and start something fresh. I also think that I'm from New York and had never left New York in a permanent way, in a real decision to move elsewhere kind of way that a lot of people get when they go to college. I was just like, if I don't leave now because of the nature of our work, it ties you to a place. If I don't leave New York at that moment, then I think I'll probably be there forever and I just wanted something else.
Kerry Diamond:
Sarah, how about you? What was your connection to L.A., if any?
Sarah Hymanson:
I had really never considered it until we started talking about it. Definitely had an idea of what LA was, that it was very superficial and all highways and not that diverse. And I just really didn't know anything about it. And I'm very pale, so I should not be in this weather, in this climate.
Kerry Diamond:
You and I share that.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah. It's just a lot of work.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of sunscreen.
Sarah Hymanson:
A lot of sunscreen. But we visited and I was just very surprised by how multicultural and how dense it is in a lot of areas. Of course, I mean as a produce-loving person, you can't really beat it. And the weather is amazing. And yes, similarly to what Sara was saying, it felt like there was still room for newness in a way that maybe, I guess naively thought that moreso than New York.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I think you were right in lots of respects because now you two are so fully associated with the L.A. food scene. How was the acclimation process?
Sarah Hymanson:
It was hard for me especially. I mean, you came here with a partner. I left a really full community of people that I loved in New York and there was no part of me that really wanted to leave New York. It was just a choice that I made to come here, so I didn't have any kind of relief related to making a change.
Kerry Diamond:
You were coming out here cold, no friends, no nothing?
Sarah Hymanson:
I had a few people that also moved at a similar time, one person in the food world and then a few people who I knew from my college experience who were not at all in the food world. And that was nice. I knew a few people, but...
Kerry Diamond:
It's still tough.
Sarah Hymanson:
Not the community that I had in New York.
Kerry Diamond:
And you're a Chicago girl?
Sarah Hymanson:
I grew up in Chicago, and then I went to college, and then I was in New York for about 10 years before moving here.
Kerry Diamond:
For any listeners thinking of moving to L.A., what's your advice for them?
Sarah Hymanson:
It takes time. I mean, I think this is probably the case for any new city, but maybe especially L.A. because it's so specific. You can't look for the same things as you got in other places in a new place. We've been asked a million times, "How does New York compare to L.A.? What's better? What do you like more?"
Kerry Diamond:
It's apples to oranges.
Sarah Hymanson:
It's apples to oranges. And I love both cities. It just really depends on what you're looking for in the moment. L.A. doesn't reveal itself to you in the way that New York does. In New York, when you're looking for something, you can find it. In L.A., people hang out in more private spaces. It just functions differently. But I think people are very nice and people are open to making new connections. I think that it's been a very welcoming, friendly place for us. Change is hard, especially if you're a social person and you're used to having a big community. It takes time to build community and to be patient.
Sara Kramer:
There's not a lot of spontaneity here in the same way that makes New York so wonderful where you can just go places, run into people, end up somewhere else. I really miss that part. And it's definitely isolating. You're in your car a lot. We've been here 10 years now, which is wild to say, and I feel like I'm still very much figuring it out. But yeah, I'd say be prepared to spend a lot of time in your car and be prepared to make and keep a lot of plans.
Kerry Diamond:
You opened Kismet in 2017. Sara Kramer, why did you want your own restaurant?
Sara Kramer:
I have always had a desire to express my perspective. And for better or worse, I feel like I've always dove head first into things. Maybe someday I'll work for someone again, but I don't think I could have ever worked for people without having had my own experience of working for myself and knowing what it really means. I think that I need to get to the very edge of something, the very bottom of something and want to understand it really fully. And I think that it's mostly that drive that pushed me to want to open my own restaurant that I wanted to see the entire project. And I don't think you get to do that if you aren't the owner and have the insight into all of the decision making, all of the choices. And I think only from that perspective can I decide then that I don't need that in another future project potentially.
Kerry Diamond:
Sarah, how about you?
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, I mean I relate to a lot of those sentiments. I think I've always been entrepreneurial in spirit and always wanted to do something for myself and new and have control. A lot of the reasons why does anyone want a restaurant? They want the control. They want to be able to create a vibe. They want to be the creative voice behind something and see how it's received.
Kerry Diamond:
How are you ready mentally, physically, financially? Can you take us back to that time or were you? Were not ready or not?
Sarah Hymanson:
I think we were not.
Sara Kramer:
Certainly not.
Sarah Hymanson:
I mean, I think that we are both very hardworking. I will work myself into the ground.
Sara Kramer:
That is our saving grace, that we're both incredibly hardworking and tenacious and that we will always find a way to figure it out. Or maybe not always.
Sarah Hymanson:
We won't give up.
Sara Kramer:
But we are tenacious. And that we really don't give up. And we are just very dedicated to a certain standard as well. And I think if we're not going to achieve that standard, we're going to work as hard as we can to get as close to it as possible I think at the expense of other things in our lives, which is very classic for chefs and workaholic people.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, I mean I think there's this idea that the restaurant industry has really changed culturally. And I think there are ways it has, especially for people that are employees of a business of a restaurant. But I think that to be the owner of a restaurant still takes everything. And I cannot say that enough. In terms of advice for people that are starting out, making a big change, starting out on their own, opening a traditional restaurant, you have to understand that you are always on and it will always take more from you than you expect.
Sara Kramer:
But yeah, at the time I think we underestimated all of that. And I think that's an important perspective to a degree to get into it in the first place. I think had I known everything I know now, I might not have done it at that time. I think that's the beauty of naivete.
Sarah Hymanson:
I remember the first day I walked into a kitchen, which was this place called Applewood in Park Slope. That doesn't exist anymore, but I owe a lot to that restaurant and the chef there. But I remember the first day I walked in and he was like, "Get out." He was joking, but he was like, "You don't want this life."
Sara Kramer:
I remember coming to the first Jubilee and we were on a break. I think there were some snacks, maybe some really lovely little baked goods. And Anita Lo was there and she had I think a cane and had hurt her knee or was getting knee surgery or something along those lines. I am sorry, I don't remember the details, but she was injured in some way and I was like, "Oh, what happened?" And I'm a 27-year-old person who's worked in kitchens for six, seven years and still pretty fresh on it. Even though I'm like, "I've worked really hard up until this point," but compared to Anita Lo, certainly not. And I was like, "Yeah, what happened?" She was like, "This industry, restaurants." It was really a moment that I will never forget and important to think back on. And something that, I mean it definitely landed, but I don't think I fully appreciated just what she was saying.
Kerry Diamond:
The scene has evolved so much. I mean I've been coming out here now for maybe 20 years and it's so shocking to just think about how the dining scene has changed. Who are your mentors out here?
Sara Kramer:
We absolutely love Mary Sue Milliken and Susan Feniger who have been extremely helpful to us, especially when we first arrived.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah. They're just I mean unbelievably welcoming and supportive.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, I would say that I got a lot of very sound business advice from Erin Patinkin. Have really always appreciated her perspective and really appreciate her as a friend as well. And same thing with Mary Sue and Susan, just absolutely adore them.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, there's an old guard world of female chefs in LA that have been very kind to us. That also includes...
Sara Kramer:
Suzanne Goin.
Sarah Hymanson:
Suzanne Goin, and even Nancy Silverton, that world of 20 years older than us.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you reach out enough to them?
Sarah Hymanson:
Mary Sue and Susan...
Sara Kramer:
A bit more.
Sarah Hymanson:
A bit more.
Kerry Diamond:
Those two blow my mind. I mean, I know nobody has it all figured out in life, but spend five minutes with them and they are the closest I think to having things figured out.
Sara Kramer:
They have some special sauce.
Sarah Hymanson:
They have a vibe.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, they have just really a incredible-
Sarah Hymanson:
They have a vigor.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah. Vigor is a great word. I don't want to say energy. I don't know. I think they're the kinds of people that everybody wants to be around. And that really goes a long way.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. I interviewed them for our Las Vegas miniseries. And my first question was, "How have you maintained this professional partnership?" Because they have been professional partners for 40-plus years.
Sara Kramer:
It's incredible. It's incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
So wild. And therapy was one of the answers.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah. I think it's that dedication to the partnership and to each other as people. I think it's really important. I think that we talk about this a lot. I think that two perspectives are better than one. We often like to include our staff in lots of conversations. I think that it really is helpful to have more than just you. I think anybody who is the head of a company or the head of any enterprise knows that they don't operate in a vacuum or in a bubble. I think with the two of them, they are a great example of how partnership in the long term really is a beautiful thing and can pay off, and yet it's something you really need to work at.
Kerry Diamond:
Kismet has become shorthand for this vegful word seasonal eating, natural-wine-drinking way of life. And you have a devoted fan base for it. Was Kismet like this right out of the gate. How did you evolve?
Sara Kramer:
Kind of.
Sarah Hymanson:
Kind of. Yeah.
Sara Kramer:
I think it's always kind of been what it is.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah. And I think it's also where I mean the style of food influences a side, even lots of dishes, lots of vegetables. Fresh is just who we are. That's what it's always been.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me some staples of the menu.
Sara Kramer:
We have a little gem salad that I think is a really good representation. It's always on the menu. It's been on the menu almost since we opened. And it's just very fresh, very tasty, but people honestly comment on it all the time. It's my dad's favorite dish at the restaurant, which is really cute.
Sarah Hymanson:
I mean it's both of our top three at least.
Sara Kramer:
It's so good and it's like you don't necessarily feel that way about a salad.
Sarah Hymanson:
We use really good vinegar.
Sara Kramer:
Really good vinegar from CATS, which...
Sarah Hymanson:
It's the honey vinegar.
Sara Kramer:
Go out of your way and get this vinegar. It's so good.
Sarah Hymanson:
It adds a nice little sweetness to it. And then use dried grape leaves, which is salty, but also a little tangy, a little umami-y.
Sara Kramer:
Briny. They have a very distinct flavor, so it's like your standard variety like dolma wrapper. And we dehydrate those and powder them and that goes into the vinaigrette, so we've got this flavor coating the salad. And then it's got toasted pistachios and sometimes-
Sarah Hymanson:
Which is really important because then I think that the vinaigrette can be too assertive without the richness from the pistachios.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah. In the spring season, we have sugar snap peas like we have on it now.
Sarah Hymanson:
Which let's be real, is most of the year in California.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, it's always spring in L.A.
Sarah Hymanson:
When it's not spring we use fennel.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, it's just a classic. I don't think it's a very loud thing and people don't talk about it all the time in the grandiose way. People were just like, "Oh, that's..."
Sarah Hymanson:
But everyone gets it.
Sara Kramer:
Everyone gets it.
Kerry Diamond:
This is the land of the salad. I mean, you just have to be honest. We don't do salads in New York the way you do them here.
Sara Kramer:
No. I have recently been going back to New York. I go back a lot. My family's still there and Sarah's family is there in that area.
Sarah Hymanson:
As mine too.
Sara Kramer:
In the past few trips, I have noticed that I have a really difficult time eating. As much as I love the restaurants in New York, if I don't want something that's pretty rich and pretty heavy with meat or seafood, it is hard to get vegetables. It's great if you want some raw bar or if you want to go to Cervo's and get the chicken with fries, it's so delicious. But I would really like anywhere to go for a nice plate of vegetables.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you been to Shukette?
Sara Kramer:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you two have to go to Shukette.
Sara Kramer:
I guess we've got to go there.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, let me know when you're in town next and I'll...
Sara Kramer:
Great.
Kerry Diamond:
Make a call or something.
Sara Kramer:
Can't wait.
Kerry Diamond:
Also, the cucumber and cherries, had that last night. That's a classic.
Sara Kramer:
That is my favorite version of it, with cherries. That salad's always on the menu. It has been since day one.
Sarah Hymanson:
But the fruit changes.
Sara Kramer:
The fruit changes.
Sarah Hymanson:
Which is my favorite version.
Sara Kramer:
Persimmon.
Sarah Hymanson:
I mean, I love cherries.
Sara Kramer:
Melon.
Sarah Hymanson:
They're the top fruit for me, but maybe the melon.
Sara Kramer:
You love melon.
Sarah Hymanson:
I do love melon.
Kerry Diamond:
I think that's a surprising combination for people. Cherries and cucumbers.
Sarah Hymanson:
We put a lot of fruit in our savory food. Which is one of the things that my father always claimed he didn't like, but I think that he's wrong about his own like of it. But yeah, we put a lot of fruit in savory food because I do think that sweet balancing salty is important. And fruit is just also lends some acidity and some other freshness.
Sara Kramer:
We also just have such beautiful fruit here and we can't possibly use it all up just on dessert. We don't have that many desserts. And I think on the whole, not every single table is getting dessert, so we want to celebrate these beautiful things in the moment. And there is more seasonality to the fruit here than there is vegetables.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah, for sure.
Sara Kramer:
Because a lot of things grow on trees and those really are once or twice annually. The stone fruit and the cherries... Well, cherries are a stone fruit. And the mulberries and things that are-
Sarah Hymanson:
Apricots.
Sara Kramer:
Apricots. I think that we want to really celebrate those things when they're available. And right now, you're hitting peak stone fruit season and really good early summer stuff, so you've come in a nice time.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about this cookbook, “Kismet: Bright, Fresh, Vegetable-Loving Favorites.” You write that this is not a restaurant cookbook. What is it?
Sara Kramer:
Correct.
Sarah Hymanson:
We really wanted to make a cookbook that appealed to a wide range of folks.
Sara Kramer:
And specifically the home cooks.
Sarah Hymanson:
Specifically the home cooks. Yeah. There's a lot of recipes that you'll recognize if you've been to our restaurants, but they are all adjusted, made a little bit simpler for the home cook when needed.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, I think that we've really, really wanted it to be a useful book. I think a lot of restaurant books are extremely beautiful, but not necessarily easy to cook from, and we wanted ours to be beautiful and also easy to cook from for the most part. There are a couple of things in there that are going to be a little bit more challenging because some things you just can't simplify enough. But for the most part I'd say 90% of the book is really approachable and that was really important to us.
Sarah Hymanson:
I think it's also a good representation of our food, so we did make some adjustments, but you won't notice that much. Maybe you'll still want to come to the restaurant for things to be just a little bit better. A little extra special.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah. People are like, "Why should I continue coming to Kismet now that I can make your food?" I'm like, "Well, it's not going to be as good."
Kerry Diamond:
But it was fun flipping through the book because first off, the beginning of the book is great.
Sara Kramer:
We labored over the beginning of this book, but very intentionally.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so much fun.
Sarah Hymanson:
Thanks.
Sara Kramer:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And so much personality. I learned a lot about the two of you.
Sarah Hymanson:
Thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
How long did you work on the book?
Sara Kramer:
I think in earnest a year and a half.
Sarah Hymanson:
That's what I've been saying.
Sara Kramer:
But we got the book deal in 2019 and put it off. Probably worked on it in 2022 to 2023. Probably finished it fall 2023.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's walk through some recipes. Which recipe is the best gateway to the world of Kismet?
Sara Kramer:
I mean, the cucumber, cherry salad is a really good, easy one. I think that's a very easy great gateway. I think the broccoli salad also is a good gateway.
Sarah Hymanson:
I also think even the chicken pie.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Really?
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, a little more challenging.
Sarah Hymanson:
It's a little bit more challenging, but really rewarding, really delicious. And you can pack them away in your freezer and be reminded of the cookbook all the time.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, I think another one that's on the cover too is the carrots. That I think is a really good gateway because it's really easy.
Kerry Diamond:
What's the most personal recipe for each of you?
Sara Kramer:
I think for me it's the barracus, it's a family recipe, and even though I'm sadly gluten-free now and I can't even eat them, they are really fun for me to make and smell.
Kerry Diamond:
How about you?
Sarah Hymanson:
I love the one that's labeled Jewish chicken, which is a Eastern European sweet and sour.
Kerry Diamond:
You love flower water?
Sara Kramer:
Oh, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you use it?
Sarah Hymanson:
We use it in a lot of savory contexts. And I think that a lot of people say they don't like rose water or orange blossom water because I think it's often used in a very strong way, a little too much. And so, we really try to think about it as an accent, something that lingers when you're finishing a bite. It's in the rose water labneh. And what's another good one?
Sara Kramer:
In the radicchio salad with fennel roasted fennel.
Sarah Hymanson:
Yeah. Some orange blossom water there.
Kerry Diamond:
You got to go back to the fennel roasted fennel because I flagged that. What makes something fennel roasted fennel.
Sarah Hymanson:
It's roasted in fennel seed.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, it's a bunch of toasted fennel seed that we toss fennel and then roast it for some really nice caramelization. It's doubling down on the fennel. It's extra, extra tasty.
Kerry Diamond:
I love fennel so much.
Sara Kramer:
Same.
Kerry Diamond:
So that immediately caught my eye. I will be trying that one. The only way to bake salmon?
Sara Kramer:
Slow and low, it doesn't take very long even at a lower temperature and it's much more supple. You don't risk dry salmon, which we hate.
Kerry Diamond:
Dry salmon is very sad.
Sara Kramer:
Except for some people in my family who really prefer it.
Sarah Hymanson:
I've had a lot of dry salmon.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Before the speed round, a word I never think I'm pronouncing right, Zhoug.
Sara Kramer:
I would say Zhoug.
Kerry Diamond:
And tell us what it is.
Sara Kramer:
There's a bunch of variations, but it's going to be like a spicy condiment or maybe a spicy herby condiment. One version is more of a paste. Another version is more of a spicy salsa verde. It's delicious, yeah. Like anything that's got a lot of...
Sarah Hymanson:
Garlic and spice.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, garlic and spice. And not just fire spice but spices, really tasty and makes-
Sarah Hymanson:
We're big condiment people.
Sara Kramer:
We love a sauce.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. We're going to do a little speed round.
Sara Kramer:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Sara Kramer, Sarah Hymanson, morning beverage?
Sara Kramer:
Green tea.
Sarah Hymanson:
Herbal tea. And if I'm being bad, green tea.
Kerry Diamond:
What's always in your fridge?
Sara Kramer:
Yogurt.
Sarah Hymanson:
Spicy condiments.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite childhood snack?
Sara Kramer:
I guess the Barraca from the book.
Sarah Hymanson:
It wasn't really a snacking household, so I'm going to actually say that what I wanted all the time was candy.
Kerry Diamond:
Treasured cookbook?
Sara Kramer:
I think that the most useful cookbooks to me have been baking books because I think I need recipes for that a bit more. Anything Liz Prewitt's written, really love those and her new substack.
Sarah Hymanson:
I have a huge cookbook collection. I really couldn't decide, but I guess as a kid when I was first learning how to cook, I loved “The Joy of Cooking” because it was just a bible for anything I could imagine wanting to cook when I was a little kid.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite food film?
Sara Kramer:
Maybe not one specific film, but I really like the way food is depicted in the Studio Ghibli movies. They're so good. So beautiful.
Sarah Hymanson:
I just don't think there's a better real food film than “Tampopo.”
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite smell?
Sara Kramer:
It's hard to beat the smell of orange blossom. It's really just so dynamic. I maybe prefer the smell of a really ripe peach or nectarine.
Sarah Hymanson:
I'm going to say raw rhubarb. Do you know this smell?
Sara Kramer:
Yes. It's very fresh and green.
Sarah Hymanson:
It's very fresh and green.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have to slice into it to experience it?
Sarah Hymanson:
You slice into it. And Meyer's makes a soap that's rhubarb.
Kerry Diamond:
We all need to go get some raw rhubarb. Okay. Last question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Sara Kramer:
When I think about trapped on a desert island, I'm like, "Okay, these are dire circumstances and we need to survive." And maybe that's not how everybody interprets this question and more like you're stuck with someone you like, but I don't know. I feel like Analiese Gregory, who does all of the foraging in Tasmania, I'm just like, "She'd probably be a really useful person."
Kerry Diamond:
Some people think they'll be rescued right away, but that's a little insight.
Sara Kramer:
Yeah, I know. I'm like, "I need to survive." The person who knows how to forage.
Sarah Hymanson:
I have an answer in a similar vein. Have you seen these Chinese YouTubers like Li Ziqi? They're wildly popular, many millions of subscribers. And they are part of this back-to-the-land traditional life food bloggers. And they make everything from scratch and grow things and forage and make their own stoves and cooking utensils. And they make everything and use everything.
Kerry Diamond:
I am going to check them out.
Sarah Hymanson:
You should look, but yeah, I'll take one of them.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Fascinating answer. Great.
Sarah Hymanson:
We're very practical here. We're trying to survive.
Kerry Diamond:
Anyway, thank you both so much. It's really been an honor knowing you for as long as I have. And I think back to Mad Capra and just all the phases of your career. And I feel very privileged to have experienced your food and your friendship over the years, so thank you so much.
Sara Kramer:
Oh, we feel the same way.
Sarah Hymanson:
Thank you so much.
Sara Kramer:
And we really appreciate that.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Let me know what you think about the show and your ideas for future guests. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Special thanks to Outpost Studios in San Francisco and Third Wheel Podcast Studio in Los Angeles. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.