Silvana Pijoan Transcript
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Hi everyone, you're listening to The Future Of Food Is You, a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Abena Anim-Somuah, and each week, I talk to emerging talents in the food world. And they share what they're up to as well as their dreams and predictions for what's ahead. I love this new generation of chefs, bakers, and creatives making their way in the world of food, drink, media, and tech.
This week's episode is coming to you from Mexico City. I've been spending a lot of time here in the last year getting to know the local culinary scene. Today's guest is Silvana Pijoan. Silvana is a second-generation vintner, producing wines on her family estate Pijoan. Pijoan's Vineyards are in Ensenada, a coastal town located in the Mexican wine region of Valle de Guadalupe. Silvana and I chat about the process from grape to glass, how she convinced her father to start bottling natural wines, and what the future holds for Mexico's wine production region. Stay tuned for our chat.
Thank you to Kerrygold for supporting the Future of Food Is You. Kerrygold is the iconic Irish brand famous for its beautiful cheese, made with milk from Irish grass-fed cows. It's winter here in New York, and lots of other places as you know, and I love to brighten the season with my favorite Kerrygold cheeses. Kerrygold's Cashel Blue farmhouse cheese has become a staple in my salads. The creamy delicious texture has that distinct blue cheese bite, and is the star of my kale and walnut salads. Soup season is also in full swing. Kerrygold has some great recipes on their site, and one I have in frequent rotation is Roasted Broccoli Soup with Kerrygold Dubliner with Irish Stout Cheese. The sweet and nutty flavor and caramel notes take it to the next level. And then the sandwich of the season of course is grilled cheese. Upgrade yours with a Kerrygold Reserve Cheddar, which is sharp, strong, rich, and smooth. For us snackers out there, a personal cheese plate always hits the spot. Kerrygold Skellig, a rich and tangy sweet cheese pairs perfectly with tart apple slices, your favorite crackers, or a pickle or two. Look for Kerrygold cheese at your favorite supermarket, specialty grocery store, or cheese shop. Visit Kerrygoldusa.com for recipes, product information, and a store locator.
I have some great news. The Future Of Food Is You is going back on tour and our first stop is in Miami. Team Cherry Bombe and I are hosting a live podcast event on Friday, March 8th at Valerie Chang's newest restaurant Maty's. We'll have great talks and panels, snacks and drinks, plus networking. I'm excited to meet the folks who make up Miami's food scene and hope you can join us. March 8th also happens to be International Women's Day, and I can't think of a better way to celebrate than with the Miami Bombe Squad. If you'd like to give a solo talk at the event, you can apply through the link in our show notes.
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Silvana, thank you so much for joining us on The Future Of Food Is You.
Silvana Pijoan:
Thank you for having me.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Can you tell us where you grew up and how did food show up in your life?
Silvana Pijoan:
I'm from Ensenada, Baja California. I was born and raised there, and food, I imagine it just showed up in my life in the family kitchen table. And in street food with friends and it just like regular activities like that.
My memories from my childhood is both my parents cook really well. But back then my mom was mainly cooking and it was just traditional family, Mexican cuisine like red rice with vegetables and chicken thing and mole and stuff like that.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
You were living in Baja California, which is in the northwest part of the country. What does food look like there in terms of street food or what you were normally eating when you go out to eat?
Silvana Pijoan:
It's a lot of seafood, so fish tacos are an all time favorite. Coctel de Mariscos, like shrimp, octopus and clam or fresh clams, basically that.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, that sounds incredible. You are the second generation in your family to start making wine at your family vineyard, Pijoan.
Silvana Pijoan:
Yes.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Can you tell us how your father, who's first generation got his start in making wine?
Silvana Pijoan:
He's originally a veterinarian, more like a researcher for cattle, not like cats and dogs. They're from here, from Mexico City and they moved to Ensenada in the 80s, escaping from the earthquake here in Mexico City in the '85. But he was very unhappy with his work back then. It was really monotonous and he was bored and I guess he never really wanted to be that initially. But being a baby boomer you had to study something professional and that you could have a PhD.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, your job, needed a real title, totally.
Silvana Pijoan:
And he was struggling with his midlife crisis in his 40s. And he had always been passionate about wine, him having grown up in a Catalan family and always having wine in the table. Back then Guadalupe wasn't the wine scene that it is today. And U La Costa who is a really important person in the industry, he had just started working at Santo Tomas, which is one of the oldest winery there. And he started giving a one-on-one, how to make wine courses specifically aimed for the researchers in Ensenada, which is a big community. And that's how my dad started.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Scientific researchers?
Silvana Pijoan:
Uh-huh. There's a big community of- Oh
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, yeah, like agricultural type of stuff. Totally.
Silvana Pijoan:
So that's how he started. It just started as a hobby and it took over his life.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's amazing. What better way to solve your mid-life crisis than buy a vineyard, right?
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Were there any things that your dad took from his time as a veterinarian into the vineyard? Were there any skills you thought that he transferred over?
Silvana Pijoan:
He's very methodical and very autodidactic, when you teach yourself. Very into books, he knows how to read and is very patient. And also he has a PhD in microbiology and pathogens, so that translates really well into fermentation.
He had some teachings, but also, he was very passionate and took all his learning techniques into learning this new technique for his life. And I feel like yeah, his scientific mind really translates in the way he makes wine. He's very methodical, very organized. Yeah, he's always researching more.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I want to talk a little bit about you and your first memories growing up on the vineyard. What was that like? Were you just hauling grapes with your dad as a toddler? I'm just so curious to know what it's like to grow up on a vineyard.
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, it happened when I was like nine, eight or nine. So before that I remember sheep and cows from my father's other line. And what they bought the smallest estate, I remember mostly converting it a bit and trying to build things. And deciding where and planting and things going wrong and then rebuilding again and stuff like that. Mostly I remember the frogs and the big rocks and playing around them.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Weren't paying any attention to the grapes or anything.
Silvana Pijoan:
Not really.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, that sounds so beautiful. It sounds like you've been close to wine your whole life, but this wasn't the end goal for you. You actually grew up becoming really passionate about ballet specifically, and you were training to be a professional ballet here in Mexico City. Where did the spark of dancing come from and how far did you get into your journey before transitioning into wine?
Silvana Pijoan:
They were always happening at the same time. Me and my sisters, we all took ballet classes as a young kids, really early on, five years old or something like that. But I don't know, ballet is so magical, so it's difficult not to fall in love with it completely. It's a really passionate art form.
So when I was 10 or 11, I got more competitive and I realized that it was a difficult art form and that you have to be committed completely. I struggled within deciding is this what I want to do professionally? I knew it was going to be a tough life, but eventually I feel like the decision was made for me in the way that I never stopped taking it so seriously.
So when it was time to decide where I want to go, I had already been planning to graduate a bit before so I could come to Mexico City, the youngest that I could and all of that. And when I came to Mexico City again, I was also working for wine stuff related, so it was always between the two of them.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How old were you when you moved here?
Silvana Pijoan:
I was 18.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay. So right after high school then. Let's transition from turning and go back to the vineyard. So at some point you decide that you want to become a full-time vintner. You want to spend all your time on the farm, especially your family's farm. What made you decide to become a vintner and what was it like working alongside your dad for those first few years?
Silvana Pijoan:
Interesting. It wasn't so much as a decision that I specifically took. It was something that I was deciding like, "Oh, it's a difficult decision, give up dancing and move back home. Or not be completely committed into wine and trying to struggle these two lives." And I did that for a while, but mostly I feel like my actions took the decision for me again. Back then I was supposed to like, "Okay, I'll dedicate one year completely to wine and then one year completely to dance." And then I stopped dedicating years to dance and just being completely absorbed into wine making.
What made me decide? Initially I saw that he would hate me for saying this. But I saw that my father was struggling a bit, taking care of a ranch and also all of the other things involved in wine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
It's hard work.
Silvana Pijoan:
And I was seeing that the vineyard was almost dying and really deep need of attention. The seller work was also a bit unorganized and the team needed some guidance. And there were so many things that I saw really where he needs the help is back there. Of course, he never asked. He's like, "No, no, no, everything's okay. No, you keep doing your life." But I saw that this is not going to be sustainable for long. And if I'm going to go into this, it's better to do it as soon as possible.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What was it like making those first cases with him? Obviously you'd grown up being around it, obviously helping to some capacity. Now it's your full-time job and now you're making decisions alongside your dad. What was that like?
Silvana Pijoan:
Initially at the beginning, I think it was easy because being his young Padawan and he's teaching me his way of life and everything. That was a really peaceful side of the process, but it was also difficult arranging myself within the team. And it was an all male team and I was struggling a bit to find my place and find how to fit in there and stuff like that. Later it became a bit more difficult when I started making wine and then we had different ideas and then we started crashing a bit more. But it was a necessary process.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So obviously wine is great, but a lot of us don't really know the process of making wine. So can you describe at least at Pijoan farms, what's the process from grape to glass?
Silvana Pijoan:
Okay, so right now we're in winter. It's usually a busy time around the season. It's when you prune the vines, and also since we are replanting some large parts of the vineyard, it's also get out of the nursery, the plants that you're planting.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The seed blends.
Silvana Pijoan:
Make the holes, add the compost into the holes, add the compost into the aisles, like cover crops. A lot of the planning that you're going to be harvesting throughout the year-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Happens now.
Silvana Pijoan:
So you work a lot of the soil and then you plant and you prune and it's raining. So we're always hoping for a good rain season and a cold season. Afterwards it starts waking up and you still have some time. So we usually dedicate that to rearrange the cellar, seeds, start preparing a bit. What do we need for this year's harvest?
And it's like a free time, so we get to travel around and do some events and tastings. It's a bit of a free time, but you never really get the free time in wine. Then you get harvest throughout August up to late October. Then by November December you're still barreling and racking. The wine is done, but not fully. It's still doing some malolactic. There's still some batches that need to go into barrel or outside of barrels, and within all of that it's bottling.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay. So you're bottling, it sounds like, okay. So winter-
Silvana Pijoan:
We're bottling now.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
You're bottling now. Winter is pruning, planting, letting it grow till so spring. And then summer, still growing, still growing, and then you're harvesting in the fall. In the fall you're bringing stuff to the barreling, pressing, doing all that sort of stuff. And then in that same timeframe you're also bottling and getting ready to put things out in cellars and things like that.
Silvana Pijoan:
We usually do it at winter when there's nothing happening at the cellar but it's happening in the vineyard. And before harvest, June, July. So we're getting all the reserves and the wines that spend more time in barrel. We usually bottle them by July.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So they're in bottles for now, it sounds like seven, eight months, something like that?
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah. But some of them were there before, so it spends maybe a year or 18 months. Tops.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, okay, got it. Wow, that's awesome. And so your vineyard is a blend of the new things that you've learned, the old things your dad has preserved. What are some of the traditions and technologies that are incorporated into making the wines? Are there specific machines you're using or techniques to help bottle?
Silvana Pijoan:
We're a very handmade winery, so we don't have a lot of machines and technology. I feel like I don't know how to make wine with a lot of technology. Our presses are basket press that you have to do it manually. We got one with a globe inside, so it's easier to work with, but it's still very rustic.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
A glove?
Silvana Pijoan:
It has a balloon. It's a balloon that inflates from the inside, but it's still a basket press.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So it's like a pneumatic press almost. Oh, very cool. Yeah, that's awesome.
Silvana Pijoan:
It's a pneumatic and an hydraulic press.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, sick. That's really cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
But they're both basket presses, so it's like a small capacity. If you're pressing more than three tons, it's a long day of work. So I feel like I'm used to hardworking vintages, harvests. And I haven't had really the experience of the technology and presses where you just press buttons and it can work on its own. I hope I get there one day.
But yeah, we both share the ability of multitasking. And being proud or being really guilty if you can't do it properly. You have to be aware of where everything is moving. And meanwhile you have to be checking that everything is healthy and you have to be checking the processes. So it's very like that for the both of us.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, so you have the press. And then is there another thing you're using, another machine of sort to collect the wine. Or just going straight into barrels after you press?
Silvana Pijoan:
We have the destemmer where you separate the, yes-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The stem from the grape.
Silvana Pijoan:
The stem from the grape, so we have that. After that it's like by bucket, we fill the tank or the barrel or the bin, so it's a lot of work. Then just the press and I guess the tanks, and we do have the bottler, the bottling machine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Okay. Wow. It's much more simple than I thought because you're just waiting for it to sit there for a certain amount of time before you can serve it up.
Silvana Pijoan:
So you go from this destemmer, if you want to use it, because it's not necessary depending on the wine you're making. And then it's a fermentation process, whether it's in a tank or in a barrel or in a flex tank or something like that. Then you sediment and then you rack and this line of racking from one place to the other. Later the aging process, which we usually incorporate into most of the wines except some of the whites and roses. Then it's a few months and then you rack it again into a tank and prepare for bottle in the next few weeks.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, very cool. Wow. You mentioned whites and roses. What are the typical wines that are coming out of your family's vineyard?
Silvana Pijoan:
Recently we've been more focused on younger wines. It's more sustainable for the winery because it's a faster movement. It's also what the people are drinking nowadays. And it's also I think what we like to drink nowadays too. But my dad is also a real fanatic of elegant complex red wines. So we do have a lot of those too. It's a balance between the two. I feel like it's 50/50.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And when you say younger wines, are you talking two years, three years coming out, or what does that mean?
Silvana Pijoan:
Younger wines, I would say two years for now it's '24. They will be '22, '23 still the fresh new wine coming out of the harvest, the recent harvest. Like that for the roses and the whites, it's mostly like that. If some of them have aging, it's like eight months in a barrel, so it's still coming out the following year. And for the reds, yeah, maybe they spend a year in a bottle or something like that, but not that long time.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Red, white, rose, are giant classifications. Can you tell us about maybe two reds you're making, two whites you're making and two roses?
Silvana Pijoan:
For example, whites. My dad makes one that he has made before for many years. He has the family line, very corny.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Love it.
Silvana Pijoan:
It has the names of all the female in the family. We're all women. Two sisters. I'm the youngest. There's a white wine that's called Silvana. It has my name.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
And it's the classic type of a white wine that we make in Baja because it's of the seafood and everything. We tend to go to crisp, acidic, fresh, white wines like stainless steel to bottle.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And what grape would you use for a wine like that?
Silvana Pijoan:
This one is a Sauvignon Blanc, Sauvignon Blanc and a bit of Muscatel to give it the aromatics.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very nice. So it's a blend of the three?
Silvana Pijoan:
Uh-huh.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
And for me, making a white that is more like my take on oxidative whites. It's called La Poubelle. It's also a Sauvignon Blanc from a small parcel, but it's done differently. It has some skin contact and then it's a fermented in oak left with oxygen in the oak. So it has this sherry motes. And a lot of work with the leaf, so it's a really different type of white from the Silvana.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. I got to try that. I know at the time we recorded this yesterday, you did a tasting at my favorite wine shop here in Mexico City, Rimessa Wines. And yeah, I got to try the La Poubelle. And that's also your dog's name, which is really cute. Yeah, I loved it a lot. It tasted like a lighter version of a port, which I've never really found that in a sweet wine. But it was very refreshing and crisp. Okay. How about the reds? What are some reds that you're making?
Silvana Pijoan:
The reds, we have some full carbonic maceration Grenache. My dad also loves this method, so he has for his younger reds, some that have a hint of carbonic maceration. And then for the most classical ones, we have for example, a dry farm old by Zinfandel, which is really classic in California and also in Baja California.
Zinfandel grows really well, and it always wants to be this big red wine, even if you don't want it to, it wants to be. So we have that, and it has this port notes too, really acidic. It's a really nice wine. And then for my dad, also very classical lines like, I don't know, Caravan or Grenache. And he also makes a Bordeaux blend Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot, which is a classic here and everywhere in the world. But it's also one of the type of wines that was really famous when the wine scene in Guadalupe started.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. That's really cool. And then for roses. Your roses are kind of on the darker, more slightly bolder side.
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah, they are on the neon rose side, we try not to, but for example, the one you try this Arbol de Fuego, which I think of it as a type of a Blanc de Noirs because I strive to make a white wine out of it. But Zinfandel is just so extravagant and always wants to be noticed. And just by pressing it, it just gives off a lot of color. That one is Zinfandel and Grenache, and the one that my dad makes is also a Grenache and Colombard.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very cool. Wow, that's amazing. It's so funny to hear that grape types or grape varieties have personalities. Now I'm going to be paying attention to those Zinfandel bottles.
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
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Abena Anim-Somuah:
And now back to our guest.
When you were deciding to really become a decision maker at the winery, you want us to incorporate a lot of learnings from the natural wine world. So a few of your wines are natural and biodynamic. I'm curious to hear what were your early learnings about the natural wine movement?
Silvana Pijoan:
Like everybody else in Mexico and probably in the world, we all came across natural wine as like, "Oh, it's funky."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Funky orange.
Silvana Pijoan:
And initially there was some type of resistance being from a family of winemakers like, "Oh, what is this movement, la, la, la?" At the same time, I was struggling with the wine in general. It felt like it could be Italian French from the US or everything, but it always had the same taste. It's like a crispy white or a Provenance rose or I don't know. It always had the same feeling and it's very generic. It felt like all of this terroir that they were speaking about that I couldn't really notice. It's everywhere. It just felt like every wine tasted the same in a way. And I think one of the first wines that I tried is a Nestarec, which is an impeccable natural winemaker from Czech Republic.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Can you spell that for us?
Silvana Pijoan:
N-E-S-T-A-R-E-C. Nestarec. I tried that one and it's like, "Wow, is this natural wine? It looks so clear and it's not cloudy and it's not funky." And it also tasted and smelled really differently to what I was used to, but in a good way.
So this got me really interested and I started reading more about it, and I started trying to find wine natural wines because it was difficult to find in Mexico. And in Ensenada, it's still difficult to find. And by reading about it, I became super interested in... I'm curious about how the vineyards that we work with would manifest if we don't intervene in something as simple as the yeast. What if we trust the yeast that the vineyards that we are working with have? What is this?
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The grapes themselves are producing?
Silvana Pijoan:
Uh-huh. It's the microbiology that the parcel in itself has. But in the conventional wine, I don't know why it's something, I don't know, demonic possession can happen if you don't add the yeast. Anything can go wrong. I don't know. It was always something of a topic like, "No, you don't do that. You don't trust native yeasts. They're horrible."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay. So that's the difference between natural wine and conventional wine is that in natural wine, most of the grapes are creating the yeast to ferment. Whereas in conventional wine, you're adding the yeast to some extent.
Silvana Pijoan:
Mainly it's about the yeast, but it's basically about not adding and not removing. So I feel like the yeast, it's the less of the problems. When you can add something, you can really add like color aromas, texture, or remove alcohol or make a white out of a red wine, really, you don't even know what you're drinking anymore. But yeah, fermentation is always aided by yeasts that are selected from different strains. And it's like, "Ah, this is an Australian strain of yeast." And it gives you this tropical aromas and it does represent in the glass, in the wine that you're tasting.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
In the notes that you're trying and stuff. Interesting.
Silvana Pijoan:
Okay. So natural wine relates more to the agriculture of the vineyards that you're working to have more diverse microbiology that's going to represent in healthier fermentations. And specific aromas and taste profiles that make it unique.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. So it's like you're just letting the grape do its thing, just show it everything you've got based on the terroir of the land or the season or the conditions? So it's almost like natural wine gives you more of a time capsule of the year in the bottle, it sounds like? Yeah. Okay. Wow, very cool. And so what was it like then after you've read these books, you're trying more wines, how did you then solely start to incorporate those learnings into the wines at Pijoan?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, I started to push my dad into, "Ah, let's make a natural wine." And he was like, "No, they're really bad. No, no, no. Why would you want to do that?" And eventually I convinced him of doing, I don't know, half a ton or something like that. And I feel like the first time you make natural wine when you weren't doing that, you're always so scared. I have to leave the grape, do whatever it wants. But I'm just going to be here standing, not touch it, and you don't want to get involved. But I feel like that's not the way to do it. So it turned out okay, but then it was a wine that went down after six months. It didn't have enough structure to hold/
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So it was a bad case?
Silvana Pijoan:
But it was a good enough case that my dad became interested enough to like, "Oh, okay, let's repeat it." And meanwhile, I grew more about it. And eventually he was like, "I feel like you have to start making your own wines aside from the family project."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, keys to the kingdom. Very cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
And, "Your questions that need to be asked, and I can't answer them. So I feel like you have to start your own investigation and your own thing." And I started with one wine, which is Arbol de Fuego, and then I have more for the family line for Pijoan, but I also have my secondary independent wine line.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, I have to ask, is there a natural wine that you're thinking about cooking up down the line in the next few years? Is there a particular grape or flavor or kind of flavor profile that you're going for?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, I've been planting a lot of Mission in my vineyard because it's really well adapted to the current conditions, principally to hydro stress. But I haven't had the fortune to work a lot on Mission because there's not a lot at the moment planted. So yeah, I want to get to know more about this grape and how it manifests in my estate and in my region. And to see what are the possibilities I can cook from there.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Well, I can't wait to try it once it comes out. Hopefully in the next probably, I'm guessing four or five years or so. Yeah.
Silvana Pijoan:
Probably less because I've been planting it for a few years.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay, nice.
Silvana Pijoan:
Maybe like three years. Okay,
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay, great. I'm setting a timer. I really enjoyed going to the tasting again. I think it was such a great prep for this interview, but also I loved getting to see, you get to understand you threw your bottles. You made this bottle, for instance, with your partner who's also a vintner. Can you tell us a little bit more about that wine and how you see wine as this expression of who you are?
Silvana Pijoan:
That's exactly it. I do feel like wine is also an artistic form. I feel like more creative now than when I was a dancer.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's so beautiful.
Silvana Pijoan:
So much more. I also struggled with imposter syndrome like I did back then, but not as much. Well, yeah, my partner also also makes wine. He's an independent producer from my region, which is quite rare because it's usually big wineries or family wineries. But being an independent producer is quite a ride.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow, that's awesome.
Silvana Pijoan:
And this wine we made is called Cochinero, which is like a mess. When you make a mess, it's called you made a cochinero. And it was like our dating wine. We just started dating and harvest was coming, and it's like, "No, we're not going to make wine together. No, no, no, no, no. Of course not. It's too soon. Too soon."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Six month rule, six month rule. Yeah, but for wine, yeah.
Silvana Pijoan:
But we started talking like, "Ah, yeah, but if were to..." And it's like, "Oh, well, I have a bit of Grenache that I don't have a home for." And it's like, "Oh, I also have a bit of Grenache that I don't have a home for. What do you want to experiment?" "I don't know. Like this. Oh, I want to do this." So we made a really small batch of many different methods and things, and it was a get to know each other and get to know our wine-making style while making our wine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's so adorable. That's like what beautiful thing could you come up with? Yeah. That's awesome. I know I told you I wanted to buy a bottle because my partner and I started dating in that same year. So I feel like I need to keep it and open it for a special time. Yeah. That's so beautiful.
Well, I want to talk about another thing, actually. This is the thing that I tried that first put me on to Pijoan and your family's wines. But you also make vermouth, which obviously seems quite rare for a vineyard to also be making vermouth, which is a recent edition to your lineup. Can you tell us what vermouths are, and then what sparked the decision to make them?
Silvana Pijoan:
Vermouths are wine-based beverages. It's usually wine and alcohol, sugar and the botanical side, which is the interesting part. You have different types of vermouths. The French are more somber and not that aromatic and more dry. And the Spanish vermouths are bigger and more sugary, and they have this density, they feel more medicinal. And the Italian are in between.
And you have a lot of different vermouths. You get whites, roses, roses, noirs, a lot of different styles. And it always speaks about origin. Again, the terroir. This is represented within the botanicals because of course you're using what's around your region. Initially it was like foraging and it had this medicinal nature to vermouth. But it was also like a yummy drink, so it became more commercial too.
It's funny that you say that it's not that common for a winery to be making better vermouths, but initially we felt there's always byproducts in wine making. And I feel like the responsible winemaker needs to resolve those issues. Like, okay, you get all these byproducts, how many products can you make out of just making wine? And for example, I see at least five. Okay, you make wine, but you can also make vermouth from the sediments.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's after your first filtration?
Silvana Pijoan:
No, it's before fermentation.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, okay. Okay.
Silvana Pijoan:
You press and you have this juice, but it still has pectins and a bit of soil and heavier particles. You let it sediments for, I don't know, a day or two with cold. You rack the clean juice and that you ferment to make wine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And then that sediment is what you're using to make vermouth?
Silvana Pijoan:
Uh-huh.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, very cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
You always have a lot of sediments that don't make the cut into the wine. So we use those as the base of one of the vermouth. That way we're recovering like 3000 liters per harvest of something that it was not only a waste economically, but also a possible contaminant. If you throw it, it's acidic, so you're acidifying the soil. So it's more than an issue too, just for us.
Yeah, I feel like that was the initial motivation of what can we do with this? And thinking around it is like, "Ah, we could make a Miscela or vermouth. Miscela is different than a vermouth, but they relate. A Miscela is like a port, but usually made out of muscatel grapes. And the port is a wine that is just fermenting, and then you add alcohol to stop the fermentation. So it's sweet. It remains with the natural grape sugars. So that's what we do with the sediments.
And also my dad is from Catalan heritage. His parents came to Mexico as refugees from the Civil War. He had a lot of vermouth and wine while growing up. So he remembered in his younger years, "Yeah, we used to drink a lot of sherry and vermouth back then, but now it's not popular." And also my older sister, she's an expert in native plants of Baja California.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So cool. You had the family nostalgia. You had the expertise in plants to make it happen. So when you say botanicals, what specific herbs are you using to make the vermouth?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, it's always a secret recipe. It's like, "Ah, no, I can't say."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Hey, I don't want want you to get in trouble with the family.
Silvana Pijoan:
I won't say everyone, but it's mostly native plants and wild, which are not from the region, but grow a lot. We focus on sage. We have four different types of sage. It's a white sage, which is the typical for smudging and cleaning the space and the spirits and everything. White sage, clevelandii, which is more, I don't know, more feminine, more flowery. And then black sage and moonseed, which are more bitter and a bit more herbal.
So we focus on the aromatics, but also we strive to make a balance of bitter, acidic and sugar and also the aromatics. So it's very perfumy, but it has this strong bitterness that's also aromatic because the native plants there also smell like, I don't know, Christmas tree.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
You get that kind of anise, sharp taste.
Silvana Pijoan:
Uh-huh, but they're bitter. So they're adding their bitterness, but also adding a lot of perfume.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I'm curious to hear your reception to the vermouths. Obviously it seems like you guys are a wine family, you've been making wines, but now your vermouths are in most of the wine shops that are around the city. And I'm sure in other parts where you're also providing your wines. How have wine merchants and customers felt about the vermouths?
Silvana Pijoan:
At the moment, we are not struggling, but it is a new challenge. It's like, oh, okay. It's a different community. It's a different way to present the beverage. For example, somebody is not going to buy a case of vermouth. You want a bottle and you're going to keep it in your fridge for about a month or something like that. So you need to rely on stores that they carry the vermouth.
But also it's something that you don't buy blindly. You need to have a taste of it before. So at the moment we're in that area, ah, I feel like we need to do some events to present and to open up the public. "Ah, I like vermouth. I never thought it was like this." Most people think it's a distilled.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yes, it's a spirit. Yeah, because normally it's in the spirit section at the wine store.
Silvana Pijoan:
And it doesn't taste like mezcal or tequila. It tastes like wine, really. We're still in that process of, not educating people, but making it easy to try. I feel like in Mexico City, it's more with everything. It first happens in Mexico City and then the rest, but it's still recently been introduced.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
But it's been loved by those who are trying it.
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those who try it love it, but I just need to get them to try it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. That's really awesome. I want to talk a little bit about the region where you're growing and producing wine Valle de Guadalupe in Mexico, and particularly this region is really fascinating. It's been getting a lot of reputation recently, a lot of southern Californians are coming down. It's like the other version of Napa if you don't want to go north. But there are also some challenges now that have come with this over this popularity, so to speak.
There's water scarcity. There's a booming tourist industry, especially in a place that was primarily agricultural. And there doesn't seem to be a lot of infrastructure to support this. The LA Times recently wrote an article at the end of last year talking about this and interviewing some people who had been there for 50, 60 years. What's the current state of the wine industry now in Valle de Guadalupe?
Silvana Pijoan:
It is at a fragile point at the moment. We feel like there's no other Valle de Guadalupe in Mexico. It's a really privileged site. It has a Mediterranean climate. It doesn't rain in the summer, which is crucial for wine making, grape growing. It has the cold winters and the rainy season in the winter. It has the proximity to the Pacific coast, so it has this cold sea breeze coming each morning.
So it's always been an agricultural site, not always been grape growing site, but it's always been an agricultural site. And when the wine industry became, it had a good 20, 25 years of developing. But also the spotlight was hit on the tourism that was attracting a lot of people from all over the world to come and see the vineyards and try the wines. And there's a really good food scene there both in Ensenada and in Baja. You eat amazing.
So of course it attracted a lot of sharks and it's been overly developed. And at the moment it's a bit sad because the price of the land has gone up. So I cannot aspire to buy land there, and it's been bought and sectioned for Airbnbs and cabanas and I don't know, stuff like that. I feel like there's too many, there's no way they're all profiting. They're trying to help the tourism, but without understanding that there are different types of tourism. So for a while we've been struggling some type of resistance because they've been favoring bars and discotheques and casinos.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
As opposed to you could be hosting tours on your farm or something like that.
Silvana Pijoan:
So it's like, "No, but tourism is tourism." And it's like, "No, it's not all tourism is what we want." Now sometimes we get people and it's like, "I don't drink wine. Can you make me a mojito?" And it's like, "I'm a winery. Why would I make a mojito?" But it's changing. It's becoming more, it happens everywhere in Mexico. There's something very beautiful and special about it, and they completely destroy it and become, I don't know, a party place. So that is happening a bit.
And also the insecurity, it has not gone up because it has been worse in the past. It's like they go hand in hand. So mainly it's just that we are afraid of losing the possibility of working the land. And there's a shortage of water because now there's this whole demand to supply, and there hasn't been rain as much as before. So we haven't been recovering and the vineyards have been struggling, and it's raising a question of how long can we afford to be here in these conditions.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, I guess then, what do you hope the future for wine is in Valle de Guadalupe? And how do you hope that the region achieves intentional global recognition? Because again, Mexican wines are still getting up there. Slowly and slowly, holding the same reference as a wine from Napa or a wine from Italy or France or even Spain.
Silvana Pijoan:
I feel like this problem that we have at the moment is not going to continue to grow. Eventually it will explode. There's only so many capitalistic ways you can put in a singular place, and before it flops, not everyone is going to do well. So I hope that in the next years, the ones that are focused on the wellbeing of the region and the economy of the communities and the wine industry. But also the agricultural industry will all be more open to adaptive consciousness that we need to take and to maybe stop planting Cabernet Sauvignon and stuff like that.
And open our eyes to, "Okay, let's adapt to different varietals and to different types of agriculture and to really adapting into what we are going for. Which is not that we are not going to have any water because it does rain, but adapting into harvesting most of that rain for the agricultural uses. And then learning how to reuse most of the water. And then planting hybrids and more productive varietals that don't take up as much water as, for example, Cabernet Sauvignon. What I would hope for is the community becomes more close and more informed into the obstacles that we're going to have eventually.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, and I'm sure, I think many wine regions have faced this. Wine regions are very important for employment, for maintaining agricultural nativity for a place. But let's talk a little bit more about where your wines are. I know most of our audience is in the US. Can you tell us about the process of stocking your wines in different wine stores and restaurants? Do you have a philosophy about where you want your wines to end up?
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah, definitely. Mostly I sell here in Mexico, mostly in Mexico City because it's a huge demand here. But yeah, initially I worked with a distributor, it's called Fermentis, which is a pioneer in natural wine here in Mexico. And yeah, initially the question was, "What do you want me to do with your wines? Do you want me to just sell them everywhere or do you want me to be more consistent with specific places?"
And I think that's important. If I'm not going to be able to be there to represent them, I want them to be in compatible places that they can grow this community and really understand the wine and also that they care about the wine. It's not just something commercially attractive that they need to have or something like that. And in the US I've been lucky to find along the way, really compatible and people that I admire so much that are now my importers.
So I work with them and I have to visit them, not frequently, but as frequently as I can. And I've been learning the routines that they have and the places that they visit. And it's mostly, I learn a lot from them because it's also a brand new market and a brand new perspective on how to drink wine. So I'm always very interested in, "Wow, the California people drink wine so differently that the New York people." It's always so interesting.
At the moment, it's mostly Mexico. And in the US I started working in the New York area through several wine selections, who is great. And recently I started working in California with Amy Atwood Selections. She works with a lot of female winemakers too, so it's been cool to be a part of the portfolio.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, very fun.
Silvana Pijoan:
Mostly I work through them, so I'm not always sure which restaurants and stores are carrying our wines, but I always try to keep a communication like, "Hey, where can they find them?" But if in need, I always recommend checking their websites like several wines and Amy Atwood's to see which stores they're carrying.
And as to where I want my wine to go. I don't know, it's maybe two egotistical of every winemaker, but of course I would like to see it in Europe and in France and stuff like that. I would love to get some wine to the Tokyo wine scene, which is amazing. But then also it becomes like, "Okay, but it's the carbon footprint of taking your wine so far away," and it's like, "Okay." Mainly I focus on the national wine scene and I've been trying to get some south to Guatemala or to Colombia.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Brazil, Argentina, also have wine markets as well. Well, let's talk a little bit about the Mexico City wine scene. Being here in the last year or so, there have been obviously staple wine bars. You've got Loup, Hugo, Cicatriz, NIV, just to name a few. How has it been bringing your wines here, and what has the reception been like? And how does it feel being part of the scene here? It's just such an incredible scene.
Silvana Pijoan:
I was lucky, again to find the community that I have at the moment because I remember this wine scene, I feel like happened in 2020 or 2019. The pandemic really rearranged the food and wine scene in Mexico City. And I remember before when I was working for the family line, trying to enter the industry and trying to find the community, and it was impossible. I couldn't get in. Everything was too interconnected, but in a way that it wasn't relatable. And I didn't know how really to fit in and I felt like I had to fake it a bit.
And nowadays, it just sort of happened naturally. I had a wine that I wanted to move, and I tried to do it initially independently, and I started knocking on restaurants. And it's like, "Oh, no, we're not interested. We're not interested, we're not interested." And then pandemic hit, and I started working with my distributor, which opened up a lot of lines to me. And he was also growing at the moment.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Who is your distributor?
Silvana Pijoan:
Fermentis it's Maldonado. And the wine scene was changing at the moment, and also the way people ate. I feel like before the pandemic, it was more like, I don't know, fancier restaurants Pujol, I don't know, really fine dining and a bit more serious. And then everybody became a tortilla. They all had the pop-ups, and they were all cooking in their kitchen and doing crazy stuff. And it rearranged everything and it became a bit more casual. So also for the wine, it became much more casual. Like pairing it with potato chip or stuff like that, instead of like, "Oh, having a six, how do you say that?" Six
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Six-course meal?
Silvana Pijoan:
Exactly. Which used to be always like that. At the moment, it's an ever evolving scene. And I feel like I meet a lot of people while giving tastings, and then they open up something and it's like, "Ah, I really want to do this." And then a couple of years it's like, "Oh, you did it." And now we're working together, and stuff like that.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's beautiful. I want to hear more about how you're thinking about the community that you're building, especially around growers and producers in the industry?
Silvana Pijoan:
Yeah, that's really important. I have some winemaker and farmer friends that I always rely on, "Hey, so I've been having this issue, has this happened to you?" "Yes, no," we have this confidence of asking things, even if it sounds stupid. Or, "I don't know how to do that, can you teach me?" And it's always a trade thing, a friendly thing.
For example, Aldo Cesada from Benos Seltede, I learned so much from him farming. I don't know, he's done many different experimental things in his vineyard and with great results. So from time to time it's like, "Aldo I want to do this in this part of the vineyard, but I'm so scared, I'm not sure if it's going to work, la, la, la." And he's like, "Oh, what are you trying to do?" And just building up together.
We also get really well along with Noel Tellez from Biche. He has bigger community ideas. We should all get together and demand this sort of rules in the prices of the grapes and in the treatment of da, da, da. So he's more like organized and trying to organize us.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, it's like social activism for the farmers. Very cool.
Silvana Pijoan:
Which is cool to have somebody that's pushing onto that. But yeah, I feel like in Valle de Guadalupe, I have a good support system. And also I've relied too in Natalia from Garambulloin in Guanajuato. Her and her husband Branko, apart from amazing winemakers and farmers, they're also researchers and have a ton of information.
She's a teacher at the university, so they're also trying to have a larger community within the country, not only the region. And they're always asking questions. And at the moment they're striving to build a community around sustainable practices in farming with the aim of maybe eventually having some sort of a signature, not like a certificate, but something like that. And that we can all share our learnings and mistakes and everything from it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow, like an institute that Valle de Guadalupego can go to. Yeah, that's really cool. Well, I know you have an exciting trip coming up and you'll be joining some awesome farmers somewhere. Really cool. Can you tell us about it? And why is it important for you to also incorporate travel and research into the work to bring back home to Mexico?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, me and my partner are going to New Zealand. We're going to be doing harvest there. It also happened through the wine community, like traveling winemakers that we've met along the way. And there's one in particular that's a really good friend of my partner. And he's like, "Ah, we have a spot here. You should come." And I've never been that far.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Quite far. It's quite far on the other side of the world,
Silvana Pijoan:
And it's complicated to leap for me. I'm such a control freak that it's like I don't know how to stop, and I always feel like everything will collapse if I'm not there. But it's also a really important lesson at the moment. You have to be able to delegate, to trust your team, to trust that you've done a good enough work so far that it's not going to collapse.
If it collapses and there was something faulty in it that it needed to collapse for you to see it. And also, I'm really excited about the different perspectives that this will bring. How they view wine, how they view farming, how they be drinking wine? What is around that community? At the moment, I'm just really open to whatever I can get from this experience, but really excited.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
We're huge manifestors on the podcast, so I'd love to ask. When you look at yourself in the next five to 10 years, where do you hope to see yourself? And where do you hope to see yourself, particularly in the wine industry, both as a female vintner and also as a Mexican vintner too?
Silvana Pijoan:
Pretty much doing the same. I hope that I'm still motivated and passionate about what I'm doing. I would like to be able to have more farming freedom. So in the next five to 10 years, I would hope to be able to acquire some land that I can have my life project in it. And plant vines, but also something along my life and the things that I eat and everything like that. Mainly I just want to find the balance between overworking myself and being oversaturated in, "Ah, I have a lot to learn." And finding a balance of allowing me to also have a life outside of the wine scene and to be able to eat the cake that I've been working and cooking for so long.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
She wants to be able to enjoy and drink the wine. I love that. That's a good philosophy. I always like asking people, is there a particular person that you'd love to try your wines or invite to the vineyard? It sounds like you've learned from so many people. There's so many people you've admired in the industry, so yeah, who would that person be?
Silvana Pijoan:
I would like Britney Spears to try my wine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's iconic.
Silvana Pijoan:
That'd be pretty great.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I think she would like it, especially, Cochinero. I think that's a good bottle for her.
Silvana Pijoan:
I think she'd like Arbol de Fuego.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay. Oh, for sure. Definitely. That's really cool. Is there anyone else?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, there's a lot of winemakers that I admire and respect, but I feel like I'm going to get them to try my wine eventually. I always carry a wine when I'm going to wine fairs or something like that. Life itself has led me to meet a lot of great people. And sometimes they drink my wine and I'm like, "Oh, please don't drink my wine. I don't want to see the face." It's always a interesting and learning opportunity.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Well, if anyone knows Brittany Spear, we have a bottle of wine for her-
Silvana Pijoan:
Please.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
In Mexico City. Yeah. Silvana, thank you so much for this conversation. I have learned so much about wine culture, Mexican culture, and hopefully one day I hope we get to visit your vineyards.
Silvana Pijoan:
Anytime you want.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yes, we'd love that. If we want to continue to support you, where are the best places to find you?
Silvana Pijoan:
Well, strangely, I think Instagram is a good spot. It's easy, and yeah, mainly through that. For the family line, it's Pijoan Vinos. Pijoan is the last name, and my personal one, which is also my commercial one. It's @silpive.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Awesome. Thank you so much, Silvana.
Silvana Pijoan:
Thank you.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Before we go, our guest is going to leave a voicemail just talking to themselves 10 years from now. You have reached the Future of Food Is You mailbox. Please leave your message after the beep.
Silvana Pijoan:
Hey, Silvana, this is me calling you from 2024. Just checking in to see how you're doing. I hope you're not being too hard on yourself. I'm sure by now you've accomplished many of the things that you had in mind for yourself, and if not, it was probably for a reason. I hope Poubelle is around there. We love her very much. She's probably old by now, but hopefully very loved and running around there. I hope you're still in a loving relationship. Remember to always work on it as hard as you work on your job.
If you haven't done it by now, remember that keeping a balance between personal life and work life is very important. You can also travel without working. So that's a note, a really important note. And also, I really hope that you went back to dancing. It's something that currently we are missing really deeply, and I feel like it would be great for our mental health. So if you did it, congratulations. And if not, I think it's time to do it by now. Take care and love yourself.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks to Kerrygold, OpenTable, and Oishii for supporting today's show. The Future Of Food Is You is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thanks to the team at CityVox Studios, executive producers, Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, associate producer Jenna Sadhu, and editorial assistant Londyn Crenshaw. Catch you on the future flip.