Stacey Mei Yan Fong Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Stacey Mei Yan Fong, a home baker and the author of the award-winning cookbook, “50 Pies, 50 States: An Immigrant's Love Letter to the United States Through Pie.” Stacey was born in Singapore and lived in Indonesia and Hong Kong before moving to the U.S. to study at the Savannah College of Art and Design. She was working in the fashion industry when she applied for a permanent U.S. visa and simultaneously started her 50 Pies, 50 States project where she baked a pie from each state that represented its people and included regional ingredients. She started the baking project because she wanted to learn more about the country that was now her home, and afterward, she'd gift the pie to someone from that state. Stacey tells me all about her journey from Asia to America and how baking pies helped her handle the stress and emotions of leaving one's home and building a new one. We also take a deep dive into her Massachusetts pie, which is a Boston cream pie. My favorite. We chose this pie because I'm from Boston, and although a traditional Boston cream pie is actually a cake, Stacey's pie version pays homage to the cake in all the best ways, including a topping of cubed pound cake. Yum. I loved chatting with Stacey, so stay tuned for our convo. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
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Let's chat with today's guest. Stacey, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk Boston cream pie pie and so much more.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Hi Jessie. I'm so excited to be here with you.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you were born in Singapore, you lived in Indonesia, and you grew up in both Singapore and Hong Kong. And I wonder if you have an early baking memory or baked good memory.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
So my favorite Singaporean pastry is this little shortbread cookie that has the slow-cooked pineapple jam on the top. So it's a little fluted pastry. It looks like a flower. Then it has a little mountain of pineapple jam on it. And they come neatly stacked in these plastic jars with red covers on it. And that's one of my favorite things to eat when I'm home. A baking memory would be probably a Betty Crocker brownie. In America stuff like brownies and cookies are really readily available like chocolate chip cookies but growing up it wasn't something that was so available. So when we would get the Betty Crocker box brownies, we would make them and I would just eat around the edge of it because I'm a corner girl, but my sister is a center girl so it really worked out for the both of us.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have to say that still despite the fact that I just grew up in Boston my whole life, I have so many good boxed brownie memories. They're just so... Even today I love them so much.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's the perfect recipe. No one can mess with it.
Jessie Sheehan:
It totally is.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It brings joy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. You write about a delicious Singaporean food that I just wanted to flag a baked good I think. The pandan chiffon cake.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Pandan chiffon cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Tell us about that.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's really like a grand beautiful cake. It's so tall. Reminiscent of an age angel food cake I would say that you find here, but this beautiful bright green that comes from a pandan leaf, so the extract makes it super green, vibrant, almost neon. And that's my dad's favorite. And when we would go back to Singapore, we would go to this bakery called Bengawan Solo, big red box, and I would have to sit with this fricking cake on my lap on the three-hour flight back to Hong Kong because he's just like, "We have to carry it home so that I can eat it for breakfast the next couple of weeks." And the only way so that it didn't deflate was me just gingerly hold it for three hours while I watched some weird movie on my flight home.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so funny. And then because there were some trips to the U.S. when you were little, I wonder if there were any early pie baking memories or pie eating?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Pie eating mostly came from movies. Watching movies and just seeing all these people stop at diners on their road trips and eat pie seems so wonderful to me because I was born on an island, Singapore. I grew up in Hong Kong, also an island. You couldn't really go on a very long road trip to anywhere unless you were crossing an international border. So that was what I wanted to do when I came here was go on a long road trip and stop at a diner. I was very romanced by the idea. I pitched the idea to my parents. They were not as romanced as I was.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think it's fair to say that you come from a food obsessed or a food forward family. There might not have been a lot of bakers or cooks in your families, but lots of eaters.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. Very good at eating. My parents were not very good cooks, but they were good at their one thing. My dad could make a chicken curry really well because he used to make that for himself in college. But my dad worked in the hotel business, so we were exposed to a lot of really good food at a young age. For example, my little sister, Sarafina, she had to fill out what's her favorite food. She was five years old and she was like, "My favorite foods are lamb chop and lobster bisque." And the teacher had to ask my dad, "Is this for real?" And he's like, "Oh yeah, after school they come to the hotel to do their homework or hang out." So my favorite food memory from a hotel is I would go after school, go swimming and get a club sandwich and french fries and sit by the pool in my robe and read books. It's just the best. I lived a very blessed childhood.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. I wish I had family who I'm like, "Oh no, that sounds so fun."
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And you get to eat so many wonderful things and then also learn so much about what it takes to make good food. Meeting all the people that worked in the kitchen, to the service staff. It was just such a wonderful way to be exposed to new things.
Jessie Sheehan:
So food did play a big role in your family, and you have really joyous good memories of big family dinners at 6:00 P.M. every night. And I wondered if there were desserts or baked goods were part of these meals. Did they end with something sweet or no?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
The sweet thing was always ice cream. My dad was a big Häagen-Dazs ice cream guy. It was coffee and rum raisin, which also became my favorite flavors as a child, which is really hilarious that I have grandpa taste as a six-year-old. I'd be like, "Would love to sample your rum raisin if we went to an ice cream parlor." It wasn't until I got a little older where I was hanging out with my friends and they would get strawberries. So I'd be like, "Yeah, I also want strawberry, not rum raisin."
Jessie Sheehan:
That is hilarious. Because I have to say coffee, yes, delicious. But when you said rum raisin, I was like, yuck.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I love that soft raisin texture.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's hilarious.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I'm such a grandpa. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
That is hilarious. And you've also described yourself as a third culture kid growing up between east and west cultures. Can you unpack that a little bit about what third culture means or means to you?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. It's basically you didn't grow up in the same place you were born. You moved around a lot. And that's something that as an adult I've not struggled with, but really worked through this sense of idea of what home really is. For example, I've lived in New York now for 15 years. Very crazy. But this is my home. I think it's more of my home than maybe Singapore or Hong Kong is since I've built this whole life here. And so I think being a third culture kid, just it's a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because you've gotten to live and be and experience so much, but the curse is that you don't really have that childhood home to go back to, which is something that I'm so envious of. A lot of my friends in the states get to go back and see their bedroom when they were 16 with Goo Goo Dolls posters and the same bedsheets and all of that. I wish I had that. But I feel in the stuff that I don't have, I've gained so much more in the experience of travel, in the experience of creating a life of my own, trying new different flavors, meeting new people. I feel like that's the blessing of being a third culture kid.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I know you watched food TV when you were little. Can you tell us favorite food TV shows and maybe some favorite movies?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I love “Yan Can Cook.” I loved Martin Yan. I thought it was so cool because for me, Chinese food was stuff that I ate every day, not that I saw it as anything that special. The only time it was really special would be the 15 course wedding banquet at someone's wedding or something. But seeing “Yan Can Cook,” explain also how it was made because I didn't really know how the food was made, it just appeared on the table or we would go out to eat and it was just there. But letting him explain to me about things that I was eating every day was so cool. He just seems like a cool guy, a real fun guy. And movies ... This is so hard to pick a favorite, but “Waitress” is one of my favorite movies because she processes all her emotions through her baked goods, which I feel as a baker, I'm sure you do as well. And when “Harry Met Sally.” I just really like how she knows exactly what she wants. And it might sound irritating to people or super bratty, but it's nice to know what you want. Some people question whether they should ask for what they need, but she's just like, "Yeah, I want the ice cream on the side. I want my pie warmed. And if that's how you want to enjoy your food, you're going to pay for it too so let's go."
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Peeps. Have you heard about Cherry Bombe's Jubilee? It's our annual conference for women in food, drink, and hospitality, and it's happening Saturday, April 12th in New York City. I always love being at Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry chefs, and cookbook authors. If you'd like to join us, you can get tickets at cherrybombe.com. If you're an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing. I hope to see you there.
Now back to our guest. So you describe yourself as a home baker. Why is that an important distinction for you, I don't know, as opposed to just saying I'm a baker? What does that mean to you to call yourself a home baker?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I feel because I'm self-taught, I didn't go to pastry school and when I started working at Four & Twenty Blackbirds, it was a little bit of a trial by fire for me. And I think it's also knowing that I developed all these recipes in my tiny terrible ... It's not terrible. It's a blessing to have a nice home. My stock apartment oven that's been in my apartment now for 14 years. And I feel like that makes things a little less intimidating because yeah, I'm a home baker and I'm really proud to be.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe your baking style?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I feel like it's fast and loose. Like how I live my life, a little fast and loose. I don't take anything too seriously. I feel in this day and age, people are concentrating so hard on the aesthetics of it all. If it's going to look good so I can take a picture and post it to Instagram and share it with my friends. But honestly, who cares. If you made a pie and it looks a little bing bong, you just put some ice cream on it, you cover it up, everything will be fine. It's still going to taste delicious. You made this lovely meal. I feel like yeah, people get lost in the performance of it all when you should get lost in the making of it all. In the process of making this pie and the process of taking this pie to share with a friend or this baked good to share with a friend, that's the part that I want everybody to get lost in. Not so much all the technical details, even though it is fun too.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now I wanted to talk about the 50 Pie, 50 State project, which preceded the book because your book, which we were going to talk about shortly, began as a project which involved baking a pie particular to each U.S. state influenced by the people and ingredients of that state. But before you began the project, you baked your way through the “Four & Twenty Blackbirds” book. So tell us about receiving the book and about your choice to bake through it.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
So I was going through a rough patch in my life. I was 25 in New York working in fashion. I think being 25 in New York, you're going through a rough time anyway. And my best friend Patrick bought me the “Four & Twenty Blackbirds” cookbook. Four & Twenty Blackbirds is a bakery that's in Gowanus. It started during the recession and was one of the only pie shops you could get a slice of pie at in New York. It was started by Melissa and Emily Elsen. They're from South Dakota. Shout out South Dakota. And I just found it so dreamy. The flavors were so clean, it was so simple and it was so comforting. You could just get a salted caramel apple pie with a big dollop of whipped cream and a hot cup of coffee and just sit in their beautiful bakery. There was so little places that you could do that in New York at the time.
And so I was totally romanced by them. And so when their cookbook came out, my best friend Patrick bought it for me and I decided to “Julie & Julia,” the movie, my way through it, and just bake every single pie and just get lost in something that had nothing to do with my everyday life, had nothing to do with my job. And I found out that at first I was very terrible at making pie, but then I got better through a lot of trial and error. I never anticipated stepping into it and being good at it. And I feel like that's a good way to approach a new thing is that you are going to frumble a little bit, but the frumbling will be the learnings to when you get good at making pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
You try to bake one every day. How strict were you about getting through the book?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It was like every couple of weeks. I never really set a timeline for myself. I feel like that's a good thing to do. Some people work well on a timeline. I work in the middle. I know the goal in the end, but I break up the project in a certain amount of pie, so it's not as overwhelming.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It was three months of doing crust first, like getting the crust just right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Was it baking through the book that ended up in a job at Four & Twenty Blackbirds, or did the job come because you had your idea about traveling the country and learning and making a pie from each state? Which came first?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
The job came much later. So the project came first. In 2016 when I was applying for my green card, I decided to give myself this side project because if you've ever applied for a visa or anything, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of money. You question yourself a lot. So as a card carrying Virgo, I decided I'm going to give myself a project to take my mind off the stress of it all and bake my way through all the states. And during the pandemic I ended up losing my job in fashion and I decided to do a hard pivot and I cold emailed all these bakeries in the city that baked pie. Four & Twenty wrote back to me. I did my trial day, they hired me and ended up baking there for two years. Very poetic. It was very poetic. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you pivoted during the pandemic, you had already started the project during this green card process in order to familiarize yourself and pay tribute to the country that was going to hopefully become your home, you had this idea to bake a pie for every state.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. That's correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
So that was going through your mind. You lost your job. You're like, "Well, I'm already doing pies all the time. I might as well get a job in this pie bakery."
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Exactly. By the time I pivoted, I had only five pies left in the project to do so I was a pretty proficient home baker. I wasn't the best baker, but I thought, Hey, when else am I going to get this push to do this thing that I've dreamed about for so long? And also by working at a pie bakery, I would get the learnings under my belt that I didn't have because I didn't go to culinary school. So yeah. It was a trial by fire.
Jessie Sheehan:
I understand. It's this visa process. It's overwhelming. You're thinking about the fact that the United States is going to become home. How did this, I'm going to make a pie for every state ... It just came to you like a vision?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It did come to me as a vision. It was like, how can I give myself this long project? How can I learn about the country that I've decided to call home? We love to travel. You go to Italy, you go to Portugal, you go to Mexico City, you try all of this food. People barely do that in the country that they live in. Whether you are in Hong Kong or wherever, this is your small town. America feels like everybody's small town. And I was so fascinated by America since a young age and living in it, I was like, wow, it could really be 50 different countries. It's got 50 different cuisines. There are things that overarch everything, but each state has such regional specialties. And I thought, how fun would it be to explore all of that through something that I think is so American, which is pie. And pie too is beautiful because it's a blank canvas. It can be savory or sweet. The biggest part of the project was me sharing it with someone that I knew from that state. So I got to learn more about my friend Jeffrey that was from West Virginia, my best friend Lauren from Connecticut through pie and processing that emotion and being able to talk about how much I love them and learn more about them with pie in between us made it really wonderful.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. So I want to just understand logistically it didn't necessarily mean that you got in a car, went to a state, made a pie there and handed it to someone.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Nope.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nope. Some of the states you did visit, but some of them you just researched and then you had this person that you knew that was from there. And so in the book, each pie is dedicated to someone who lives in the state that the pie represents.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. So some I traveled, some I didn't. For the last pie in the 50, I did them alphabetically, but I knew that for the last state I definitely wanted to travel there. So when I got to Wyoming, I went to visit my friend of Wyoming. I baked the pie in Wyoming, and that was my bookend to the project. And it was really bittersweet. But what's wonderful about that is I had got a book deal in the midst of all of that so then I didn't have to say goodbye to it just yet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Let's talk about the cookbook. It's called “50 Pies, 50 States.” Same name as the project, right?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Same name as the project.
Jessie Sheehan:
“An Immigrant's Love Letter to the United States Through Pie.” Features over 50 pie recipes, each inspired by the ingredients, traditions, and flavors of a different state. Serves as a tribute to the diverse culinary landscape and reflects your journey and experiences as an immigrant. How does it do that? How's your personality or you as a person, how is that influencing what the book is?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I feel like it was coming at it where I wasn't looking at pie in a traditional form. For example, there's a lot of savory pies, which is something that's not very common in the United States. That's something that's very much like a British thing for me growing up in a form of British colony, lots of savory pies. And it's just interpreting a state with fresh eyes. And that was what was exciting for me and also some of the recipients for the pies.
You get bored with talking about where you're from, but when someone asks you these fun questions, it dredges up these memories of oh, I would eat this after school and I would do this with my grandma. That's the fun thing about doing this whole project was learning about my friends, learning about where they were coming from and all these small intimate stories that they were willing to share with me. Everybody wants to talk about food. Everybody wants to talk about a sweet food memory. And for me to be able to honor it in pie form was really wonderful. And also I found all these fun connections. For example, for West Virginia, my friend Jeffrey grew up in West Virginia and would eat pepperoni rolls after school. I would grow up in Hong Kong and eat hot dog buns after school. And it's our halfway around the world same, same but different thing. And finding those connections through food was such a wonderful thing that came out of this project.
Jessie Sheehan:
Somebody else said this on the internet that I read, but it's so true. People say it all the time about like, "Oh, food connects us. It's great." But you believe in food as a connector. It comes across profoundly when you look at the book. It's like friendship and food. A hundred percent intertwined for you.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Thank you, Jessie. That's very sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No. But-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It is. Because it breaks a lot of tension. How much tension can be broken if you could just share a meal with someone where you're taking the focus a little off the awkward thing that you have to talk about or the thing that's bringing a lot of strife to you. And when you're talking through food, talking with someone, you can talk through so many things that you can't before it softens the blow a little. And also you learn so much about a person by what they like to eat, the food that they grew up with. It's intimacy at its best I think sharing a meal with someone.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And I also think sweets are, so... Talk about connecting over sweets. Yes, you can connect over savory. Of course you can. I just wrote a savory book. I get it. But I really think there's something so special about sweets.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. Little sweet memories.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. Now we're going to talk about the recipe. We're going to talk about Boston cream pie, which I love. You call it Boston cream pie pie.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because Boston cream pie isn't really a pie. I want the listeners to know why we're talking about this recipe. I'm from Massachusetts and this is the state dessert. So tell us what an actual Boston cream pie is and then tell us a little bit about your version.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
So a Boston cream pie is actually a cake. It's a thick white cake with pastry cream and chocolate all over it. It's very, very decadent. But it's not actually a pie, which I found hilarious. So I deep dove, research why it's called a pie and because most cakes in the 19th century were actually baked in pie pans because pie pans predated the cake pan. So that's why it's called a Boston cream pie. But it's not an actual pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. Love. Love. So yours has this buttery crust, filled with this baked chocolate ganache and pastry cream topped with ... This is epic. Topped with cubes of pound cake, which I guess is a nod to the sponge cake.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
To the cake itself.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And then a chocolate drizzle. More of that ganache drizzle. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to make the pie crust. So we're going to stir together some all-purpose flour. Do you have a favorite brand?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I'm a King Arthur girl.
Jessie Sheehan:
King Arthur. We're going to stir together some all-purpose flour, some kosher salt, some granulated sugar, and we're going to do that in a large bowl. And you write with a flat bottom. So I had a couple of questions. First, what are we stirring with? Should I picture a whisk, a fork?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I stir the dry ingredients with a whisk with just so it's evenly distributed?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
You can use your fingers, but a whisk, it's a little more guaranteed.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you say a large bowl with a flat bottom. What should I picture? You're just worried that somebody will be using a bowl that-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Slippy slidey.
Jessie Sheehan:
You don't want it to be slippy slidey.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. If you don't have one, I just put a damp towel underneath it to just anchor it. I make all my pie crust by hand. You could skip arm day at the gym. So it's nice to have a stable bottom.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to whisk together this flour and sugar and salt in this large bowl on maybe a wet towel. And is there a brand or a type of bowl? Do you like a metal bowl, A glass bowl? Does it not matter to you?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It doesn't really matter to me. I use those massive Ikea metal bowls that everybody has. They're perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. I'm a really big Pyrex glass bowl girl. I think I love my microwave so much.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Oh, yes. That is true.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you can use them like ... If the first step of your recipe is to melt butter and then add things to it you can do it in that bowl. Same with chocolate. All right. So we're going to add some cold unsalted butter cut into half inch pieces. And we're going to place that on top of our dry ingredients. And then we're going to use our fingers to toss the butter into the dry mixture until it's coated. And then we're going to use either a pastry blender or our fingers. And I wanted to ask, first of all, which do you use and second, is there a brand or type of pastry blender that you like?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I got one from Restaurant Depot or something. It's a metal pastry blender. It's got a metal handle. If you're fine with a metal handle, you can bear more weight on it than the plastic wirey ones, if it's solid metal. And you can use it for other things too, not just pie. You can use it to mash potatoes if you want it or make biscuits so it's not a single-use item. So yeah. I use a pastry blender.
Jessie Sheehan:
You do.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
But I don't cut the butter in that finely. I like when there's big globs of butter in it. So when you roll it out, it's like marbled with butter. It's so beautiful. And also a little less work for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to use our pastry blender or our fingers to cut, rub the butter into the mixture until the pieces are a bit larger than peas or pea-sized.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And you can use a food processor too, but I feel like if you're just getting into the pie game, like learning how to make crust, it's nice to do it by hand so that visually you can see the texture and also you can feel the texture. I feel half of baking is feeling and you can't feel a food processor.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And like you say in the recipe, we want our crust to have big butter chunks. And will you remind us why we like big butter chunks in our pie dough?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It guarantees a flakier crust and it's delicious and it'll flake up a little faster too when there's larger butter and it won't be as tough. It'll be much more tender.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in a separate large measuring cup or in a small bowl ... And when you say large, do you mean a two cup glass measuring cup?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. Measuring cup. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in a separate large two cup glass measuring cup or in a small bowl, we're going to combine cold water, apple cider vinegar and some ice. And I'm wondering if the apple cider vinegar is a tip from Four & Twenty Blackbird.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's a tip from Four & Twenty and also the flavor, I just love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. And the smell.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And the smell.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so good. I learned to put apple cider vinegar in my pie crust from the “Four & Twenty Blackbirds” book, and there's just nothing better than that smell.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
You can use vodka too if you want. Unflavored vodka. No flavored vodka unless you're a masochist. But yes, unflavored vodka. But apple cider vinegar just has this nice twang to it and you don't taste it that predominantly. So if you're someone that doesn't like it, don't worry about it. It's mostly for chemistry. The vinegar will burn off faster than the water in the oven, which gives you another guarantee that you'll have a flaky pie crust.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Sounds great. And the ice, you say the ice is just there to keep that mixture cold. So we're going to sprinkle two tablespoons of this ice water mixture we just made over our flour mixture, which also has the butter in it now. We're not adding the ice. Just there to keep the water cold. And then using our hands in a circular motion, we're going to bring the mixture together until all the liquid is incorporated. What do you mean by hands in a circular motion?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's like that scene in “Schitt's Creek” where she's folding in the cheese.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Folding in the liquid and you might not add all of the liquid depending on the day. I think that's the funny thing about baking too, is that it's so environment dependent. Is it a drier day? Is it a more humid day? You have to feel it out, which is why I say to only add two tablespoons at a time because you don't want to just throw it all in and it's just a mushy mess.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're basically using your hands almost like a rake. You're raking your hands a rake.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
A rake. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. It's your hand should be a claw that you're clawing through the mixture to incorporate that water.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to continue adding the ice water mixture, but just one to two tablespoons at a time because many pie recipes, it's only about a quarter cup at the most of water anyway, maybe even three tablespoons. So it's just a little bit at a time carefully mixing until the dough naturally comes together in a ball. Are we squeezing a bit between our hands to see what-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. Squeezing a little and also another tip I love is if you see one area that's much drier than the rest of it, I push the wetter bits to the side with my rake hand and then I just add the water to the drier parts and just fluff that together. So it'll all eventually come together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I think pretty sure Erin McDowell talks about that too, about pushing aside and just putting a little bit of water on the dry bits. That's a really good tip. Once the dough is coming together, we're going to turn the dough out onto a lightly floured work surface and we're going to knead it gently. Are you actually kneading like pressing your wrist into it or just smushing it together?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Just smushing together. I roll it back and forth a little bit so it becomes a log because then it makes it easier to cut into your different sections.
Jessie Sheehan:
So your shape is a log as opposed to a disc?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. I do log first if I'm making a double crust. Then I can cut it in half down the middle and then shape it into several discs.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I've never heard of the log. I love that. Then we're going to shape our dough into a flat disc, we're going to wrap it in plastic and we're going to refrigerate it for at least an hour and preferably overnight.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Are you good about always making it overnight?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I am.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Because it's so much better?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's so much better. And also you can go crush a TV show on Netflix or something. Go see your friends, go get a drink, go see a concert.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Forget about the pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And then do it the next day. I love that. I have to get better at that. I'm always like, "Oh, I just want to make it now." So it's chilled, hopefully overnight. If you're me, an hour. You're going to roll the dough out. I wondered if you have a type of rolling pin that you like.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I use one of those dowel handle rolling pins. I've used this rolling pin for almost every single pie that I've made, and it's a rolling pin I inherited from my friend Christine's grandma. And I just think it has good juju in it. So it's whatever rolling pin feels best for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
What kind were you using at Four & Twenty?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It was a dowel one too.
Jessie Sheehan:
It was?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're not talking about handles.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Oh yes. The handles. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It was, again there, what your preference was.
Jessie Sheehan:
There were different kinds.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, got you. I wondered if they had like, "We must use this-"
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Oh, no, no, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to roll the dough out. We're rolling it out for a 10-inch pie plate, which is large.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's large.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like I'm almost always using 9-inch. Are all the pies in the book 10 inches or is it-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
All 10 inch. Between nine and 10. So it'll work for both if you have only a nine, but I love a 10 because it's a little bit flatter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yep. So we're going to roll it out for a 10-inch pie plate. Which means we want it to be like a 12-inch circle? How big?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Just about. You want about an inch to two inches to overhang your pie so you have something to crimp with.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, of course. So for a ten-inch pie plate, we're going to roll out to about a foot, 12-inch round. Do you like a glass pie plate? A metal pie plate? A ceramic pie plate?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I'm a metal pie plate girl. Glass is hard because it takes a long time to heat up. Ceramic as well. You're losing this battle with a soggy bottom. Whereas with a metal pie plate, you're guaranteed you're going to get a crisp bottom. But ceramic pie plates are great for longer bake time pies. For example, if you're making a decadent beef stew pie or a chicken pot pie and you're going to bake this thing for so much longer than you think you are, unless you maybe heat the sheet pan that you're putting the ceramic pie pan on. So to take all the guesswork out of it, metal pie pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's funny, I always use glass because I love to be able to lift up the pie and see when it's brown, but I really think I need to switch to metal because I taught a class on pecan pie at Thanksgiving time and I was doing a lot of research on pecan pies and I saw Melissa Clark's recipe in the Times and it was fascinating because she basically said if you are using a metal pie plate, you do not need to par bake this crust. But if you're using a glass pie plate, you do. And I was like, that's insane. If the pie plate can make that big a difference in your crust, it's jaw dropping.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Because think about it, a glass pie plate is what? Like a quarter-inch thick?
Jessie Sheehan:
I don't even know.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's about a quarter inch thick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Where metal is not a 16th or something.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Exactly. And so your oven has to work double time heating up that whole glass thing. All the while, the butter is melting. The butter is melting. So it's whatever is your preference. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there a brand?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Of a metal pie plate?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I use the disposable metal pie plates.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, you do?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Where you can get a 500 count from-
Jessie Sheehan:
You mean the aluminum one?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. From Restaurant Depot.
Jessie Sheehan:
But they're a slightly thicker version.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Slightly thicker version. And what's nice about that too is if you're bringing a pie somewhere, you don't have to worry about collecting your plate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So you'll just make pies in that all the time.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. I always think it's too flimsy. No. Love it. I'm learning so much, peeps, as always with my amazing guests. Okay. So you have us grease the pie plate, which I grease when I'm making a cookie crumb crust, but I don't usually grease with an all-butter pie crust. Tell me about that.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's just a little guarantee that you can get it out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it a Four & Twenty Blackbirds tip?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's a tip that I learned a while back from just sometimes the fruit juice will bubble under and that'll make your pie stick to the bottom. So just a little nonstick spray. A whisper.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love. I love a whisper of spray. I live for it. So now we're going to crimp the edges and chill for 10 minutes. So chill refrigerator or freezer?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I do freezer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Me too. Chill in the freezer for 10 minutes. Then we're going to dock the bottom and the sides, which I thought was interesting. I always dock my bottom. I'm a docked bottom girl. But I don't dock my sides.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's just a guarantee again that it won't puff out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Because if you have a pie crust with a lot of butter, everything's just going to want to rise up. So it's another guarantee besides the pie weights that you're going to put in to blind bake to make sure it doesn't puff out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So we're going to freeze the pie now until it's solid and then we're going to fully blind bake this pie because even though it does get baked again a teeny bit with the chocolate, you still want a full blind bake, not a par-bake.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Exactly. Because it's not going in for as long as it would take to bake the crust. That's the big mystery around blind baking and par baking. It's why you blind bake or why you par-bake is to take it to the same cook time as the filling. That's I feel like a good roadmap in your head where you're like the filling is only going to need to cook for 45 minutes, let's say, but the crust really needs to cook for at least an hour. So you're bringing it to the same time.
Jessie Sheehan:
100%. So we're going to heat the oven to 425. We're going to put a baking sheet on the lowest rack. Can you tell us why we're putting in a baking sheet?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
We're putting in a baking sheet so that when you put the crust in, it's heated at the bottom as well. So again, another guarantee that it's going to cook evenly all the way through.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to line our frozen pie crust with a piece of foil and we're going to cover the crimps and fill the pie with weight. So a couple of questions. Do you butter one side or grease one side of the foil? No. And then also my favorite pie weight is rice. What are you using?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I've collected a lot of ceramic pie beans. Yeah. My most coveted is to get those pie beans that Erin Wendawa has. I really want them. They're so cute. So it's either a mixture of the ceramic pie weights or I also have some old beans. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to bake for 20 minutes on that preheated sheet. When we lift the foil a little bit over the crimps, we see that the crimps are set but not browned. About 20 minutes as I said. Then we're going to remove the foil and the weight and we're going to let the crust rest briefly before we're going to brush it with an egg white glaze. Why are we letting it rest? Why can't we just put on the egg white glaze right away?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
You're giving it a little time to come to room temp so it doesn't shock the eggs and you get some weird film around it. But another good tip when you're putting the foil on is fully just cover the crimps with the foil. Just tightly hug the crimps with the foil. I think sometimes people will blind bake where the foil is still up and not covered.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then the crimp gets too dark.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And the crimp gets too dark or the crimp falls through. You're just guaranteeing everything will stay in its place.
Jessie Sheehan:
So then we're going to, after we let it rest briefly, we're going to brush. Do you have a brand or a type of pastry brush that you like?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I have a GER one that I really like.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, so is it silicone?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's silicone.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's easier to clean.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Also, I'm getting so many little hairs from my brush in my pastries and then people think it's my hair and I'm like, I do not have short horse hair.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah, I used to have that and I just never felt like I could get it clean enough. I don't have a dishwasher. So the silicone, you can pull the head off and get right in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
So then we're going to brush the bottom and sides of the pie crust with an egg white glaze, which is a glaze of an egg white and water. And we're doing this to seal the bottom for more soggy bottom insurance. Who taught you about egg white glaze? Is that a 4 & 20 thing?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's a Four & Twenty trick that I learned.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Do they do it in every pie?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Not in every pie. Mostly just the ones that we par bake the crust or a custard pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you would never do it in an apple pie or a mixed berry pie, but if you're going to make a quiche or if you're going to make-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
A lemon chess pie, chocolate chess. Yeah. You're sealing the edges so that the liquid doesn't seep through. You're giving it like a little barrier.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the bottom.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And the bottom. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Then we're going to brush the crimps of the pie with a different egg wash. This is not a white glaze. This is one egg, one yolk, and some milk. And you actually make big batches of this with an immersion blender and just keep it in your refrigerator.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you have it in there right now?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I have it in there right now. I keep it for about two or three days
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then you have to throw it out.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And then you have to throw it out. But I'm also baking a lot of pies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. All the time.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
All the time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Still now.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Still now. I bake for fun a lot. I think on average I bake at least a pie a week, which is really nice, whether it's experiments for myself or to give away.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that. I love that. Then we're going to return the crust to the oven and bake for 10 minutes until golden brown in color. Now we are going to make the pound cake topping for this pie. So we're going to position an oven rack in the middle of the oven, but we're not going to preheat the oven.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
No. Isn't that the crazy part?
Jessie Sheehan:
Which is scandalous. Then we're going to grease an eight-by-four-inch loaf pan, which just so you know is my favorite size loaf pan. I hate a nine-by-five. And we're going to grease it with softened unsalted butter, and we're going to coat that with a light dusting of all-purpose flour. And then in a large mixing bowl, which we probably got at Ikea, and they're probably metal, we're going to sift together some all-purpose flour, some kosher salt, and we're going to sift it three more times. Why are we sifting so much?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
You want it to be tight and really fine. I feel like the best way to describe it is your end result is the perfect Sara Lee pound cake. That really tight crumb. And I just want to make sure all the lumps come out.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is this just a pound cake recipe that you developed when you were making this pie?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And it was just to mimic Sandra Lee pound cake. The perfect pound cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
So then in the bowl of a stand mixer with a paddle attachment, we're going to beat unsalted softened butter and granulated sugar on medium speed for five minutes until pale, light, and fluffy. Then we'll add four room-temperature eggs one at a time, beating after each. Then we'll add some vanilla. Do you have a favorite brand of vanilla?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I did the Ina Garten method where I have the big jar with all the pods that I slowly made myself, and I just keep adding vanilla pods to it and it's going on now... We're in our sixth year together, me and my good vanilla jar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. That is a long relationship.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's a big jar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I'm proud of you. We're going to reduce the speed to low. We're going to add half of our flour mixture. We're going to add heavy cream. And then we're going to mix, and then we'll add the remaining flour mixture. I love heavy cream in a pound cake. One of my fave things. That just came to you like, I want this to be rich and delicious.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Rich and delicious. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to eat a pound cake, eat a pound cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Hello.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. Never eat diet pound cake. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to scrape down the sides of the bowl, we're going to beat it medium high speed for about five minutes until the mixture's pale yellow. Then we're going to spoon the batter into our greased loaf pan, tap it against the counter to eliminate air bubbles and place it in the cold oven.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I know. Isn't that crazy?
Jessie Sheehan:
And turn the oven to 350 degrees. So tell us about the cold oven technique.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
So it's basically so it bakes very, very evenly and all at one temp and you get a tighter crumb and the loaf comes together very compact.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's a technique that's specific to pound cake?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Fascinating. I have read about it. I've never done it because I'm too impatient because the only problem with starting in a cold oven is it takes up to an hour and a half.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Forever. It takes forever.
Jessie Sheehan:
To bake this pound cake. So you bake it for an hour to an hour and a half until a cake tester or a toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean. So two questions. First of all, what do you use? Do you have a cake tester or do you use a toothpick?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I just use a toothpick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or a wooden skewer. I like a wooden skewer because I like something longer and I feel like they're rougher than toothpicks so they pick up crumbs.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
That is true. Okay. I'm going to wooden skewer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Right?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then I'm wondering about it coming out clean. I always want, when I'm testing a cake for there to be a moist crumb or two because I worry otherwise it's over baked.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
When you say clean, it doesn't have to be perfectly pristine. It's just so it's not gooey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wet. Yep. And then we're going to let cool at least 30 minutes. Then we're going to unmold and cut the cake into one-half-inch cubes. Are we unmolding and cutting when it's still a little bit warm?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I would like it to be fully cold. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. By the time we cut, we want it to be room temp. And then we're going to cover it while we make the chocolate layer. So we're going to heat the oven to 350 degrees. We're going to put either bittersweet chocolate chips or chopped chocolate into a medium bowl. And then in a separate microwave-safe bowl, we're going to microwave some heavy cream uncovered for 30 seconds, pour that cream over the chocolate and stir until smooth. That's the beginning of our filling.
We're going to reserve two tablespoons of that, which is just at this point it's ganache. And we're going to save that little bit of ganache for our topping. But into our chocolate mixture still in the bowl, we're going to stir in a beaten egg, vanilla, and kosher salt, and pour into the fully baked pie crust, which is now cooled.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's cool. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then place that on a baking sheet. This time we're not preheating our baking sheet. Bake on the center rack for 10 minutes until the edges are set and the center still has a slight jiggle. And then we're going to let it cool for 15 minutes while we make our pastry cream. What is this chocolate egg-baked situation called?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I would call it a black bottom. It's like my ode to at Four & Twenty we would have a black bottom pecan pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which would just be melted chocolate?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Which would just be melted chocolate. But I wanted the texture to be a little more fudgy for the Boston cream pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
And that's why you do the egg?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And that's why I do the egg. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yum.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Because I feel like why you love a Boston cream anything is the mixture of fudgy chocolate plus the pastry cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Agree. Agree. Okay. Now we're going to make the pastry cream. So in a medium bowl we're going to combine granulated sugar, all-purpose flour, kosher salt. We're going to place a heat-safe mixing bowl on top of a medium saucepan with enough water that we're going to get a nice simmer out of it, but not enough water that it's touching the bottom of the bowl. We're going to bring the water to a simmer and then in the bowl we're going to beat some whole milk and some egg yolks together. What tool are we using?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I would use a whisk. And this is where Jessie's love of Pyrex glass bowls come in really handy because they fit really nicely over the top of a saucepan and also you can see what's going on.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yep. After we're beating our whole milk and egg yolks together in the bowl with a whisk and the water's simmering, we're going to add the sugar-flour mixture that we whisked together in a different bowl. Do we add it all at once or should we do a little bit at a time?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
I do a little bit at a time just knocking it slowly in as I incorporate it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we'll cook, continuing to whisk constantly for about 10 to 12 minutes until the mixture coats the back of a spoon. And then we're going to stir in our homemade vanilla, which we've been in a relationship with for six years. When it's coating the back of a spoon, visually, what do we see in the ... Does it look like a thick pastry cream at this stage?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes. So it's the texture of mayonnaise. It's a little bit glossy and if you ran your finger over it, it would leave the trail.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. The famous trail. It's still pourable. We're not spooning it.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to pour the pastry cream over the chocolate layer in the pie crust. Does the chocolate layer have to be cool before we do this?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to bring that-
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
To room temp at least.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. To room temp. If the timing is off and the pastry cream's done, but the chocolate is still a little warm, can we hold the pastry cream?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Oh, you can hold the pastry cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. So then we're going to pour the cream off of the cooled chocolate layer. We're going to cover with plastic wrap. And we want the plastic wrap to touch the pastry cream layer so that a skin doesn't form on it. And then we're going to refrigerate before we put on the pound cake. So now we're going to refrigerate for a minimum of four hours, but in about four hours the pastry cream should be sliceable.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Should be sliceable and set.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Do you prefer us to go longer?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
No, four is enough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then we pull it out and where our pound cake is sitting on the counter. Maybe we made it during the four hours. Who knows?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Exactly. Maybe you've eaten half of it already.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I was going to ask, how much of that pound cake do you end up putting on top?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It depends how high the pile you want to be. You can always save some if you want to snack on it. But yeah, I love at least an inch for it-
Jessie Sheehan:
Of pound cake?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yeah. Just so it-
Jessie Sheehan:
And it's just grand.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Like cubes and it's piled up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Piled up. And then you take that little bit of ganache that you saved.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Which you might have to microwave a little if it's too cool just so it's drizzelable.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you drizzle that over the pound cake and then serve right away. So you don't do your pound cake and your chocolate drizzle until you're ready.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then serve.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
And then serve.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do people go crazy?
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
It's very decadent and it's delicious. It's like a Boston cream pie in another form. You've seen it in so many different ways, like in ice cream and donut. It's fun to see it in a pie form, I guess. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So cool. So cool. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Stacey. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Stacey Mei Yan Fong:
Oh my God, Jessie, that's so sweet. Thank you so much. This was so fun.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Ghirardelli Professional Products for supporting this episode. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.