Susan Feniger & Mary Sue Milliken Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Today kicks off our new travel miniseries, Destination Cherry Bombe. Where are we headed first? We are going to Las Vegas. Each Wednesday this month, I'll be celebrating bright lights on the Vegas culinary scene. Join me to discover the chefs, mixologists, and innovators defining the city and taking the food scene to new heights.
If you're doing a Las Vegas miniseries, you absolutely have to start with Susan Feniger and Mary Sue Milliken. These trailblazing chefs were the first women to open a restaurant on the famous Las Vegas strip when their Border Grill debuted at Mandalay Bay in 1995. A lot has happened for them in the 29 years since, including the launch of their BBQ Mexicana in Vegas, lots of philanthropic work, and even a documentary about Susan's life. Susan and Mary Sue have been professional partners for more than 40 years, so they also talk about the work it takes to have a healthy decades-long relationship. I love these two so much. Stay tuned for my chat with Susan Feniger and Mary Sue Milliken.
This special Destination Cherry Bombe series is presented by Las Vegas. I visited Vegas last month and had the best time. I'd been watching all this amazing Las Vegas activity from afar and having lots of FOMO. New resorts, the Sphere, all the great residencies, and most interesting to me, all the new restaurants and incredible female talent. From chefs, to restaurateurs, to mixologists, and pastry chefs. The city has become such a culinary destination that the 2024 World's 50 Best Restaurants Awards is taking place there today. Las Vegas is packed with an amazing array of restaurants, and you can find the best of the best from around the world right in this one city, truly no matter what you're looking for. From omakase, to steakhouses, dinner and a show, lively poolside cafes or fab food halls, Las Vegas is fully focused on hospitality, and making you and your taste buds happy. Plus, whatever your food and drink preferences are, there's something for you. Zero proof, vegan options, gluten-free, it's all there. If you're like me and plan your trips around food, then put Las Vegas on your must visit list. Learn more and plan your trip at visitlasvegas.com/culinary.
This is fun news. We will be hosting an event in Las Vegas this month, so be sure to keep an eye on our Instagram or sign up for our newsletter at cherrybombe.com and be the first to know. I can't wait to come back to the city. If you have any recos for me, DM me on Instagram at @kerrybombe.
Now, let's check in with today's guests. Mary Sue, Susan, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Susan Feniger:
We're excited to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
You two have been professional partners for 40 plus years. Before we talk about Las Vegas, or Border Grill, or anything else, you have to tell me how you've done it. What is the secret? You're both laughing.
Susan Feniger:
Well-
Mary Sue Milliken:
Susan usually says therapy.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. I think certainly, for many, many years in the beginning, we were both in individual therapy. Personally in my life, I would never be anyone that hadn't been in therapy at some point in their lives. Because I think it just helps you to have your own perspective and to look at your part in stuff. It's helped us. I think it's helped us just to be able to navigate two strong personalities for that many years, in a field that can be very ego-driven.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Just having a baseline respect for each other and trust in each other is imperative. If you don't have that, no matter how much therapy you're going to have, you're not going to be able to get through the valleys. The hills are fine. I always say it's really fun to have a partner when you're in the deepest depths of failure, because then you have someone to make you feel less along and to share the pain with. When thing are doing great, and you're flying high, and you're making tons of money, that's when you're thinking, "Eh, do I really need a partner?"
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, yeah. Like Mary Sue said, I think it's the trust. Not that you can't disagree. Certainly, we disagreed a ton over the years. Part of that is our strength, is that we bring very different perspectives to the business. But we also, I think, understand the importance of give and take. If one of us feels very strongly about something, and the other one feels strong but not as, you let it go. I think we've understood, over the years, is that's really critical to be able to feel like you can work together and continue to work together.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I was just counseling a friend of mine a little bit, somebody I work with who is a mentee. She was having trouble with her boyfriend. I kept drawing on all these things that Susan and I have been through, to just help her see. They've been together 18 years. The thought of not getting through, and growing, and being stronger at the other side of it. Life is full of pain from every direction. But if you do stay together, whether you're a couple romantically or just in business, I think the other side of every low point, there's something way better than where you started.
Susan Feniger:
Liz said when here and I first got together, she realized very quickly that she was going to be the second wife. That there was a work wife and then this was a personal wife.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you call each other work wives or do you hate that term?
Susan Feniger:
No, no.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I don't mind it.
Susan Feniger:
I don't mind it either, but I don't ever think of it as that.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think we pre-date that term.
Susan Feniger:
It's hard enough even for Liz and I to call each other wife. It's such an interesting term, what that means. If you get Liz on the roll about what that means in our society, what does wife mean, then it's down a whole different direction.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a whole other episode of this podcast. How is Liz, by the way?
Susan Feniger:
She's great, she's great.
Kerry Diamond:
Whatever you call her, she's fabulous.
Susan Feniger:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Wife, partner.
Susan Feniger:
29 years.
Kerry Diamond:
29 years? Oh my gosh.
Susan Feniger:
Nothing like Mary Sue and I.
Kerry Diamond:
Honestly, you two should write a book about all these longterm relationships, because you have another longterm relationship with the Border Grill at Mandalay Bay, which you opened in 1999. Happy 25th anniversary. That is amazing.
Susan Feniger:
Isn't that? We've had such an incredible run here. I have to say, when we first came out to Vegas, I think the only known or more known chef was Wolf, having Spago here. When we were looking, first we looked at the Venetian, then we came over to Mandalay Bay. People were like, "Oh my gosh, the labor force here. How are you going to do it?" It's turned out to be the opposite. We have the most incredible labor force here. People that are very serious about the hospitality business. It's really been an amazing ride, being here.
Kerry Diamond:
Most restaurants do not last 25 years, not even half that.
Susan Feniger:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
What is it about you two?
Mary Sue Milliken:
We're very loyal.
Susan Feniger:
And stubborn. And maybe sometimes stupid.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Without a doubt. Border Grill Downtown was there for 24 years. Border Grill Santa Monica was there 27 years. This one's going to definitely outlast both of those.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We still have eight years on our lease and we're already 25 years.
Susan Feniger:
How long was City though? City was less.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah. Well, from City Café to the end was about 14 years.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We just approach this as forever. We're going to have this restaurant forever, so whatever decision we make is about making sure that every guest feels like, "Boy, I'm never coming back to Vegas without going to Border Grill because I love it there." That's the reaction we want from every guest.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. I think that initially, that was our philosophy, which is Border Grill Las Vegas is a locals restaurant, whatever that means. It's local. Yes, we want the people who live here to come. But it's for the people that come once a year, that they come every time they come, they come back to Border Grill. If they come three times a year, that they come to Border Grill. That's the philosophy I think our team has with the customers, which is they're going to be back so make sure they want to come back here.
Kerry Diamond:
When you opened Border Grill, you were the first women to have a restaurant on the Strip, as Las Vegas' main thoroughfare is known. Did you realize at the time you were pioneers?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Not really.
Susan Feniger:
No.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Bon Appétit used to do Uncorked here every year and we would always have a group photo. It became more and more clear as the years rolled on that there's never any women here except for me and Susan, "We're the only women here."
Susan Feniger:
You would see the photograph they took. It was all men in white jackets, and then Mary Sue and I in color jackets. It was crazy. We stood out, for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me how it all started. Because you were so firmly ensconced in-
Susan Feniger:
L.A.
Kerry Diamond:
In L.A. What drew you to Las Vegas?
Susan Feniger:
We got approached. I was more ready to jump in. I came out-
Mary Sue Milliken:
As she always is.
Susan Feniger:
That's probably true. Its like, "Okay, let's do it. It's something new? Let's do it." Before we even think it through. But I came out here and met a lawyer that has lived out here forever, and went with him to the Venetian. I think at that time, met Rob Goldstein, who was the president. It was the Sands Hotel and it was going to become the Venetian. Then we decided against that, but then we came to Mandalay Bay. It hadn't been built yet.
Kerry Diamond:
It hadn't been built yet?
Susan Feniger:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
So you really rolled the dice.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hadn't been built.
Kerry Diamond:
Pun intended, yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Interestingly enough, we really got the worst location in that hotel for sure.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Without a doubt. Everybody would say, even the guys who gave us the worst location.
Susan Feniger:
But we were interested in it because we want to have a location where there's outside dining, out by the pool. The one location that was was ours, the crappiest location.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It was a struggle because ... When Susan's dad came to see the restaurant, he was like, "How the hell long do I have to walk to get there?"
Susan Feniger:
It was the middle of summer. He used to come out to Vegas all the time, the old strip. He was walking, walking, walking, walking. He goes, "Don't they have a people mover to bring you down here?"
Mary Sue Milliken:
We were basically all the way through the casino and through the entire shopping area, and at the very end. Well luckily-
Susan Feniger:
There was no convention center really to speak of.
Mary Sue Milliken:
The shark tank wasn't open. We were lucky enough to survive, and double-down for year two, and start to turn a profit. Then they started opening a whole nother end. We have now basically a sea of people who walk past Border Grill all the time. Now we also have a huge audience of regulars who always want to come to Border Grill because we really concentrate on the service. I think having great food is wonderful. People really want to feel like they're noticed, and have fun, and taken care of.
Susan Feniger:
I think we wanted to have a place that was fun, that wasn't crazy expensive, that was casual. There was that energy, that this was a fun place to go. Really, in the beginning, and still now. During the summertime and when the pool's open, we have people that are out there in their bathing suits and hanging out.
Kerry Diamond:
The culinary scene is amazing today. What was it like back then?
Susan Feniger:
Well, there was Wolfgang, with Spago.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you pals with Wolfgang from L.A.?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, I worked for Wolf back in '70 ... After Mary Sue and I met in Chicago at Le Perroquet, I moved out and started Ma Maison, and Wolf was the chef there before he opened Spago.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Wolf, and Tom Kaplan, his CEO, were very sweet and helpful. They're always great. We call them up with questions. We've got a lot of friends in the restaurant business that we can lean on for tips and pointers and best practices.
Susan Feniger:
But back then, they were the only people that we knew, really knew, that were here. There weren't any other, now what's called celebrity chefs, that were here that we knew.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the Mandalay Bay team convince you? If it hadn't even been built yet, why did you take a chance on that?
Mary Sue Milliken:
It was really Susan and this wonderful lawyer who they just had a little crush on each other. I think he helped us get an investor. We raised $2.6 million, and gave our partners 49%.
Susan Feniger:
Mandalay Bay wasn't our partner. They were just our landlord. That was something also, we were pretty adamant about. We wanted to open the restaurant and own it. We didn't want to just have it be a management deal.
Mary Sue Milliken:
In hindsight, I'm sure they thought, "Well, of course we'll take anybody who will take that crap location."
Susan Feniger:
Even the very first president of Mandalay Bay, he was great. We had a great relationship with them. Then when MGM bought the hotel, we ended up with different presidents there who we had an amazing relationship with.
Kerry Diamond:
Does everybody just have a love fest with you two? Because I'm looking at your faces and you're not just telling this for the sake of a good podcast story.
Susan Feniger:
No, no, no.
Kerry Diamond:
You legitimately seem like you all like each other.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Well, Susan, for sure. Oh, we do all love each other. But, Susan, one of her big strengths I think is how she connects with people. She's really in charge of landlord relationships. She also always meets people that want to do deals with us, whether it's CPGs, or new restaurants, or whatever. She's constantly bringing new restaurant ideas to us. I keep saying, "Look, we're old. Are you kidding me?"
Susan Feniger:
But you know, the thing that I think has been really ... It's sweet Mary Sue says that. But I do think that, when we've created these relationships, like we have Chuck Bowling, and we've had with all the presidents that have been there, it creates a partnership in its own way. That where they want us to succeed, because then they succeed. The more we succeed, the more rent they make. Also, the better our reputation is.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think we've learned so much about business, even though neither of us had much interest in learning about it.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
But I want to go back to something you both said, but I ask Susan. Do you have a people litmus test? Do you go by a gut check?
Susan Feniger:
Gut, for sure. I don't know that it's always right, but that is what I go on. I think people are basically good. One of our first general managers that worked for us, his name was Kevin Finch. He used to say he thinks people want to do a good job, so believe that they want to do a good job. If they're not, it's often because of us. I think we've always treated our staff that way, which is people want to do a good thing. They want to do a great job.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, let's talk food. Tell us what Border Grill Las Vegas is all about today. I'd love to know what the stars of the menu are.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Oh my gosh. The menu changes a lot. You don't stay in one place for 25 years without a lot of evolution.
Kerry Diamond:
Right.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We're constantly coming up with new ideas. The same things-
Kerry Diamond:
People don't love change necessarily when it comes to the menus of their favorite places.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Well, I think you have to have a real balance.
Susan Feniger:
One way we deal with that is that we run specials all the time. That's obviously a way where you can keep those things. For example, fish tacos. They're a huge seller out here, and always have been from the very beginning. Or we'll do a really delicious rib-eye on the menu. It's from one extreme to the other.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah, the seafood molcajetes is a really big, beautiful, bubbling, massive seafood that you can share at the table. The ceviches are fantastic. I love them.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. Of course, all of our tacos. We do a churro ice cream sandwich. We make a homemade churro dough, with dolce de leche, and homemade ice creams.
It's interesting out here in Vegas because people that are coming to visit, they come to celebrate, to drink, to eat. It makes it really fun for our team because of that, because people are here to really just splurge and have a great time.
One of the things we've seen is the vegetarian options don't sell as much here as they do in L.A. Which makes sense, I guess. Although, so many of the people that visit here are from L.A. But that has been something I've been surprised with, it doesn't sell as much.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I would say the menu at Border Grill though has always been really plant-forward. Very, very vegetable focused. When we first opened our first Border Grill in 1985 on Melrose, we would look at our-
Susan Feniger:
Nine tables.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We'd look at our produce bills from City Restaurant and Border Grill, and we were shocked at how much more we were spending on vegetables. Because in Mexico, all the trips we've taken down there to do research and to eat ... We're drawn to vegetarian food anyway, but we like to make vegetarian food that hardcore carnivores can't resist. That's the challenge for chefs and chefs should be able to meet.
Susan Feniger:
Right. We're constantly saying to ourselves that it doesn't matter, if it's a vegan dish, a vegetarian dish, it just has to be a dish that jumps off the page and people order. They're not thinking, "Is it veggie, is it vegan?"
For example, one dish that has stayed on the menu is our plantain empanadas. Now, those have been on the menu for 44 years.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Since 1985.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, they have been on the menu forever. But again, they're on the menu here, they sell. The green corn tamales, same kind of thing. They're hard to take off the menu because people have just fallen in love with them, and when they come back, they want to do it.
But on the other hand, our ceviches change all the time. Or we do a tiradito on the menu.
Kerry Diamond:
What's a tiradito?
Susan Feniger:
It's fish that's been thinly sliced, and then it's marinated. It's more about the fish than it is ... Like with a ceviche, maybe it's 50% fish, 50% garnish. The tiradito is usually just thinly sliced, marinated to order, so it really marinates very quickly. It is, it's just like a crudo only it's from the Latin kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your go-to order?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Definitely ceviche. That's my favorite thing. It's always fresh. I love our Baja ceviche, which we actually created after we went to Baja with a bunch of our chefs. We were right on the ocean. These fisherman came back and they were just chopping up the fish, and throwing in lots of cilantro, and chilies, and a little bit of tomato. We added cucumbers.
I do love to have a balance. I crave vegetables. When we were on our book tour in '86 for City Restaurant, or City Cuisine, our first cookbook, I remember being in the East Coast, in Boston, and New York, and Washington, DC and saying to Susan, "My God, you order a dinner, and you get this hunk of meat and five pea pods."
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, that was amazing.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Where are all the vegetables?
Susan Feniger:
Well, because at City, we had a vegetarian plate that was so fabulous and a huge seller. We just did a ton of vegetarian stuff.
If you ask me, I still would love having guacamole, chips, and salsa, and a quesadilla.
Kerry Diamond:
Sitting there in your bathing suit?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
You have a second concept now called BBQ Mexicana. There's one in Mandalay Bay, and one in Southwest Las Vegas that's a drive through?
Susan Feniger:
It's quick casual. You can go in, you can sit down. There's 10 tables. Or you can drive through. You can call in, drive through, pick up. And it's at the Raider's Stadium, at T-Mobile, and at the baseball stadium.
Kerry Diamond:
There are a lot of stadiums here.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, we like that. We're in all of them.
Kerry Diamond:
How'd that happen?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Susan.
Kerry Diamond:
But seriously, for all the entrepreneurs out there, and folks who have restaurants and are looking to grow their restaurant businesses and bring in extra revenue, how'd you do that?
Susan Feniger:
We go after it.
Kerry Diamond:
You do?
Susan Feniger:
We do.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think it started when we had to deal with HMSHost at the airport.
Susan Feniger:
At the airport in L.A.
Mary Sue Milliken:
At LAX. We also met with a bunch of other of those type of companies. There's Arias, and SSP, and just a bunch of them, Levy. Then when we got to know all those guys, then Susan kept in touch with them dutifully. Then every once in a while, when she's bored, she just shoots an email off and says, "Hey, what's new with you?"
Susan Feniger:
I'm constantly ...
Kerry Diamond:
I was going to say, when is she ever bored?
Susan Feniger:
Honestly, it is funny. I'll be like, "Oh, I haven't written him in a long time." It's like, "Here I am again! What's happening? What's new? When's the next RFP happening?"
Kerry Diamond:
I'm going to start to keep a list. Loyalty, persistence.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Persistence, yes. That's what I noticed about Susan when I first met her. There's just no saying no to her. She'll find a way to yes somehow.
Susan Feniger:
You push those things. I think persistence, and being noisy, and communicating. But really, I think that's how we are with our team. Still, this many years later, I can't tell you how many times we're doing an event, whether it's for a nonprofit, and 99% of the time, either Mary Sue or I both, or one of us shows up at these events, and how many times people say, "I can't believe you're here." I think we still feel like it's important to show up.
Kerry Diamond:
Back to BBQ Mexicana.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How is that different and what are the stars on that menu?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Well, we brought some for you.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm very excited.
Mary Sue Milliken:
The burnt end burrito.
Kerry Diamond:
Some ASMR. Here's the bag.
Susan Feniger:
The burnt end burrito is killer. We smoke it for about 14 hours. We also do smoked chicken and tofu. We do burritos, bowls, and wraps. Then we have all these yummy sides, like the broccolini.
Mary Sue Milliken:
And the cowboy caviar and the coleslaw is delicious. I brought you a bunch of sides-
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Because that's my favorite thing are all the vegetables. We're both from the Midwest, so the drive through thing is a dream we've always had from the Motor City. I think it's also an opportunity for our team to grow. We're working on a succession plan over the next, well it was 10 years, but that was two or three-
Susan Feniger:
Now it's like 25 years, it seems like. I think the BBQ Mexicana is a way in which they're all excited about.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It will be their vehicle to grow, to build their own nest egg. Because for us really, we are old, it's true.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you thinking of switching to employee ownership?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Well-
Susan Feniger:
We don't know.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Not an ESOP, but we are-
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Susan Feniger:
Well-
Mary Sue Milliken:
Working on a plan that we have with our CEO and a bunch of our very top employees, who've been with us for a very long time, a way for them to have ownership, and then to grow it. We invested in the first one, but it's going to be their vehicle, this BBQ Mexicana, and to grow it. This is our first standalone without the river of people coming by in a stadium or at Mandalay Bay, so this is proof-of-concept really.
Kerry Diamond:
That's amazing.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you for talking about this because not enough people talk about things like this.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Well, exit strategy is hard.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
There's no role models out there.
Susan Feniger:
One of the things that we've realized, we take a long time for growing. We're not a company that has opened up 25 restaurants or 30 restaurants. If you want to keep good people, part of that question is how to do you keep them so when they're still young enough, that they want to be able to make enough money to support their family.
This concept, we were all very excited about. We've never done a drive through before. It's exciting for us as well as for them to see this is an opportunity to be able to within the local market, which is something that we've always been really drawn to here in Vegas. We have many people who have eating BBQ Mexicana in the stadiums. Now these are the same people where we feel like we can offer catering. We're going to be offering different kinds of concepts out of that kitchen, where you can get it to-go. We're jazzed to see what it can do.
The first time I ever did at the window and taking an order was about two weeks ago. That was sort of scary.
Kerry Diamond:
How'd you do?
Susan Feniger:
Well, I didn't know how to ring it in, but I could talk to the people that were coming through.
Kerry Diamond:
I would have loved to have seen that.
Susan Feniger:
The cool thing about this one, at least in Vegas. In Vegas, you're allowed to have a beer and wine license, and one spirit. We'll be offering margaritas, we're just waiting to get the final on it. We will be offering you can do mango, passion fruit, straightforward margaritas.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It's for dine in, yeah.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Actually-
Susan Feniger:
Which is great.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Susan's obsessed with my son's artwork, so Susan's like, "Put some of his artwork in BBQ Mexicana." There's a little dining room where you can get a margarita, or a beer and wine, and sit down and eat. It has those really nice wooden tables and chairs. It has this crazy way of feeling like a really nice place you'd go and have fun, and sit down, but it also has the drive through component.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. At nighttime I think, when you can come and have a drink, and be able to have dinner there, and there's a kid's menu there which is really great and really accessible. Then we have a whole catering menu there. You could get, for many of the offices that are in that area, you can do a whole catering menu, and have it be delivered, or have it pick up. It could be 12 tacos, or 12 burritos, or just a whole setup that someone could take home for a party, for July 4th.
Kerry Diamond:
You have every base covered.
Susan Feniger:
Well, it's interesting. We opened BBQ Mexicana about four weeks after opening our high end restaurant in Palm Springs.
Kerry Diamond:
Alice B.
Susan Feniger:
That's not Mexican.
Kerry Diamond:
Alice B. We didn't even talk about it yet.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Named for Alice B. Toklas, right?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. How's that going?
Susan Feniger:
It's doing really well.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, good. I would expect nothing less from you two.
Susan Feniger:
It's exciting. It's very exciting.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I don't know, we've opened a few bombs.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, for sure.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We opened in Long Beach and closed six weeks later.
Susan Feniger:
A kiosk, yeah. Oh my God, terrible.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It was a total nightmare. I just want people out there to understand that, just because it's Mary Sue and Susan doesn't mean it's going to be a hit right off the bat.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about hospitality in Las Vegas, because I heard you two talk about this as well in the past. That there's a different attitude toward working in hospitality here, and you have not had the problems hiring here that you've had in other locations. What is it about Vegas?
Susan Feniger:
The labor force, I think ... Vegas, even in the casinos, it's about food service, it's about hospitality, it's about people coming into the hotel business. Food and beverage basically, around the whole country, is a mainstream employer. But particularly in Vegas, I think it's a focus. You've got the schools here. UNLV, the hospitality program.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah, I think that program's very strong and it has had a great effect on the city, in terms of turning out really talented people who understand hospitality and want to make it into their career. I know a lot of people, young cooks, who come to Vegas to spend five or six years to really gain a certain experience. And then they go back out into the world and open their own places. It's a good place to learn about hospitality skills.
Susan Feniger:
And volume.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah.
Susan Feniger:
Crazy. When we first opened here, and even still now, I remember trying to expedite. It was like, "Oh my God," just lines of tickets because you can talk about doing 800 or 900 meals in a meal period. That's huge. Compare that to L.A.
Kerry Diamond:
800 or 900?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh.
Susan Feniger:
You can be doing that at the same time you could be doing private parties, all upstairs-
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think our biggest day ever was, without having a private buyout, it was $100,000. It takes a special kind of skillset to be able to forecast that and work your labor numbers around that. But our team is fantastic. They're better than I would ever be at it.
Susan Feniger:
I think we've always had, every month, where we look at P&Ls and really focus that. What are labor costs? What are food costs? How do you adjust for that? How do you really watch? How do you focus when you're going up and down in sales?
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think another thing for listeners that is so important, I keep forgetting about it because we've been doing it for so long, this open bookkeeping. We share our P&L with all the employees so they see every month, all the salaried employees. But it's basically a way to really get everybody on the team thinking about the decisions they make and seeing. Sometimes, there's restaurants that are losing money and you show that to your employees, week after week, month after month, and they get a little bit dejected.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Or they start to see, "Oh my God, are we going to stay in business?" But they don't usually leave. Because we've had restaurants that have lost money for five years in a row.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You two need to do a Masterclass or something. Have they come to you two about a restaurant-
Susan Feniger:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Business Masterclass?
Susan Feniger:
We've had such an interesting career. Mary Sue and I have talked about this, and been interviewed about it. Maybe it's being two women. It's very different, I think, than being a man in our industry. Or if you don't have a manager, or you don't have an agent. It's very different. It's a very different role model that you see with someone who maybe is represented or as a man in our industry. I think all those things, we go after.
Often times, we'll get asked, someone will call us to go do something, certainly in the media world.
Kerry Diamond:
You two are total Vegas experts at this point. Let's say you had to create an itinerary for a first-time visitor. Where should they eat and what should they see?
Susan Feniger:
Border Grill for brunch, Border Grill for lunch. Oh, and you could come to Border Grill for dinner. It's interesting because when I come in, I go to the restaurant and that's about it. I don't go out to eat at all.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I would go to Lotus of Siam.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, Lotus of Siam.
Kerry Diamond:
Classic.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I've known Bill and Saipin, the owners, since oh, I think 35 years. I love them and their two daughters, who are taking over for them, the legacy of this fantastic Thai food. The best.
Then, I don't know. I've been wanting to go and I haven't done it yet, but I love Roy Choi. I love him. He's a poet and such a thoughtful, deep thinker. I just want to try his restaurant, Best Friend. I haven't done it yet.
Susan Feniger:
I did that.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Oh, you did?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, yeah. But a while ago. You're a little late to the game here, Mill.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I only like to eat Asian food when I go out.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait. Is Mill her nickname?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your nickname?
Susan Feniger:
Fen.
Kerry Diamond:
Mill and Fen. I love it. What should people see? What's a fun sight to see, or concert?
Susan Feniger:
I have to say, that is the one thing that I have... I've seen not all the Cirque shows, but many Cirque shows. Lady Gaga, went to see her jazz show which was incredible. There is amazing entertainment here. I tend to end up going to music, that would be probably the biggest thing.
Kerry Diamond:
The residencies are incredible.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah.
Susan Feniger:
Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I think that Sphere-
Kerry Diamond:
It's mesmerizing, that thing.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, it really is.
Mary Sue Milliken:
There's so many cool things to do in Vegas, it's unbelievable. You could pack a month's worth, it'd be very hard to choose. It depends on-
Susan Feniger:
The magic's great. I like the magic, the music, and some of the shows.
Kerry Diamond:
You got to the magic show?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, Liz is a big magic fan.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of Liz, what's going on with your documentary? “Forked.”
Mary Sue Milliken:
Late.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. I don't know. I'm so glad, because we've finished going to festivals.
Kerry Diamond:
You hit all the festivals.
Susan Feniger:
Which we hit a lot of them. It's great right now, Kaleidoscope picked it up internationally.
Kerry Diamond:
Congratulations.
Susan Feniger:
Which is very exciting. They took it with them to Cannes, who knows what that will mean, but there.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to see you on the steps at the Cannes Film Festival.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, wouldn't that be fun?
Kerry Diamond:
What would you wear?
Susan Feniger:
I don't know. I worked in La-Napoule at L'Oasis for a year, back when Mary-
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, there's a whole France moment in there, too.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah. Mary Sue and I worked in France at the exact same time. Her in Paris, me in the South of France.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Remember we went to Cannes with Bon Appétit?
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We had such a blast.
Susan Feniger:
We were in the American booth and we did the food for that booth one year. Very fun, because I went back to see La-Napoule. I had the best time at La-Napoule.
Kerry Diamond:
You two worked in Chicago, met in Chicago. Then you went your separate ways, and each went to France.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Right.
Susan Feniger:
I came to L.A., she stayed in Chicago. Then we both ended up in France, within two weeks of each other. Her in Paris, me in the South.
Kerry Diamond:
Not deliberately?
Susan Feniger:
No.
Mary Sue Milliken:
No, not planned ahead.
Susan Feniger:
It was crazy.
Mary Sue Milliken:
But then we realized that we were both going to be there and we started to be pen pals.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
South to North, and talk every week. I would be like, "Oh God, this is so hard, Parisians hate me."
Susan Feniger:
La-Napoule is a tiny village. All the boys in my kitchen, there were 20 18-year-old boys in my kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you speak French?
Susan Feniger:
From high school.
Mary Sue Milliken:
No.
Susan Feniger:
But it is interesting. My French is still probably better in terms of conjugation and understanding than my Spanish.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you two then wind up in Los Angeles?
Susan Feniger:
Well, one night when we were both still there in France, in Paris, after a couple bottles of wine, downpour of rain and a rainbow, we decided we'd open a restaurant together.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It's true. She's not even making that up. It sounds like some sort of a movie. But we didn't have any money. I had to loan her money-
Susan Feniger:
She had to loan me to get home.
Mary Sue Milliken:
To get home. She went straight back to-
Susan Feniger:
Ma Maison.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Ma Maison.
Susan Feniger:
Wolf had just opened Spago, so he had left. I went back to Ma Maison for not long.
Mary Sue Milliken:
No, six months. Then she called me. I had got a job working for the fourth-wealthiest man in the United States at the time, W. Clement Stone, as his personal chef. It was a complete disaster. I moved in, and there were 28 bottles of Heinz chili sauce in the pantry, and I thought, "Oh, someone must have made a mistake and ordered a case when they meant a bottle." Then within a month, it was all gone. It didn't matter what I cooked, just chili sauce on top.
Susan Feniger:
Because Mary Sue was recovering from a back injury that had happened in Paris. When I came back out to L.A., I went back at Ma Maison. And then opened with the people who owned l.a.Eyeworks, the little tiny café right next door to them, which was called City Café, and convinced Millikan to come out.
Mary Sue Milliken:
It didn't take much.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I was like, "I don't want to see another bottle of Heinz chili sauce, I'm on the next plane."
Susan Feniger:
I moved out of my little apartment so she could move in, and I moved in with my girlfriend.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Talk about persistence.
Kerry Diamond:
When did you two fall in love with Mexico?
Mary Sue Milliken:
It was about five years later. We had been working at the little City Café, 900 square-feet, eight tables, and a little 11-seat bar.
Susan Feniger:
And two hibachis in the parking lot out back. No stove.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Until we put the stove in, which was-
Susan Feniger:
Pretty quick.
Mary Sue Milliken:
I said, "I'm not moving out there if you don't buy a stove."
Susan Feniger:
She did anyways, and then we put a stove in.
Mary Sue Milliken:
But then, after operating for those four or five years, we scraped together $660,000 from friends and family, 38 different investors including my mom, $5000.
Susan Feniger:
My dad.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Her dad, $50,000.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a lot of people to have on your cap table.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Yeah.
Susan Feniger:
That's when we decided to open up City Restaurant, which was four blocks away, five blocks away. We had to figure out what to do with the little, tiny City Café. It was either a Japanese noodle house or a taco stand.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We went with the taco stand. Both restaurants were closed. We closed the little-
Susan Feniger:
Yeah, because we hadn't built-
Mary Sue Milliken:
City Café for a remodel.
Susan Feniger:
Yeah.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We took off to Mexico, and took a three-week trip in a little VW Bug everywhere, mostly hitting market, after market, after market.
Susan Feniger:
Eating street food all the way around. Riding the menu. The first four or five days, we stayed with the one kid that was working in our kitchen, Tacho, his family in Mexico City. And went with his mom every day to the market, so that we could start to understand the Mexican kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
And you fell in love.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We did. We brought chipotle chilies home in our suitcase. We went to the produce market downtown with our produce guys, who actually we still buy from the same produce company just because Wolfgang Puck had to call them and say, "Oh, I think you should deliver to these girls."
Susan Feniger:
We had one double-door refrigerator, so we would order 2 cucumbers, three peppers, and they wouldn't deliver every day to us. This was L.A. Specialty, at the time.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Wolf said-
Susan Feniger:
Wolf said, "You have to."
Mary Sue Milliken:
"Those girls are going to be something someday."
Susan Feniger:
So they did.
Mary Sue Milliken:
We went down to the produce company with all these treasures that we brought home from Mexico. They were able to track down a lot of the stuff, which was being sold but it just was being sold within the community. So, that was a lot of fun, really.
Susan Feniger:
That was great.
Kerry Diamond:
Our final question on the show is always if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why? But for this, I'm going to say you have one night to run around the strip. You're going to eat, drink, play Blackjack, or whatever your game of choice is, see a show. What food celebrity do you bring with you? You cannot bring each other.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Oh, Fredy Girardet. I had a big crush on him.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait. Tell me who he is?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Fredy Girardet had a restaurant in Switzerland, outside Leysin.
Susan Feniger:
I can't remember, was it?
Mary Sue Milliken:
Jovan took me there, the owner of Le Perroquet, he took me there. I literally had the worst crush. Freddy was gorgeous and the food was incredible. I was 19 or 20, and I just have always thought about him.
Susan Feniger:
Mine is someone who nobody knows.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, are they a food celebrity then?
Susan Feniger:
Well, they're in my mind. His name's Alan Wagner, he lives in India, and he's a chef. The first trip I ever took to India was working with him in the kitchen of an ashram. Completely changed, I think, my interests in food. From all of our training, all my training had been in French kitchens. Once I started to explore the Indian kitchen, and spices, and that world, it completely changed, I think, where my interests were in food.
Kerry Diamond:
You two are incredible. Thank you for just everything you two have done. You're such Vegas trailblazers and I can't thank you enough.
Mary Sue Milliken:
Thanks, Kerry.
Susan Feniger:
Thank you.
Mary Sue Milliken:
What a pleasure.
Susan Feniger:
We do love Vegas, I have to say.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and leave a rating and a review. Thank you again, to Las Vegas, for supporting our show. Learn more about Las Vegas and plan your trip at visitlasvegas.com/culinary. You can find the link in our show notes. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Our content operations manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Special thanks to Sticky Paws Studios in Las Vegas and to CityVox in New York. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.