Von Diaz and Kristen Kish Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine.
We've got two great guests for you today, chef Kristen Kish joins me later in the show. I hope you all know that Kristen is the new host of “Top Chef.” Season 21 just started last week and I'm guessing all you Kristen fans tuned in. Kristen won season 10 several years ago, so it's very cool to see her back as host of the program. Kristen and I talk all about the new season, changes to the competition and what it's like being the one to tell the chef contestants to pack their knives and go, that can't be easy for Kristen, or is it? Stay tuned.
Before Kristen, I'm chatting with Von Diaz, the Emmy Award-winning radio producer, documentarian and food historian. If you're a radio nerd like me, you certainly know Von. Her joyous new cookbook, “Islas: A Celebration of Tropical Cooking,” was just released and it was a labor of love. Von joins me shortly to talk about all the heart, soul, and hard work that went into making this beautiful book. Von, by the way, will be at our Jubilee conference on Saturday, April 20th in New York City. Just a reminder, tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com. They will sell out, so don't delay.
This episode of Radio Cherry Bombe is supported by OpenTable. We are so excited that OpenTable is once again partnering with Cherry Bombe on our Sit With Us Community dinner series, which highlights amazing female chefs and restaurateurs and the Cherry Bombe and OpenTable networks. For our next dinner will be in DC at Chef Ria Montes's Estuary on Wednesday, March 27th. Tickets are sold out, but if you snagged one, I'll see you there in just a few days. Thank you to everyone who's joined us for our Sit With Us Series with OpenTable. Stay tuned to see where we go next.
Today's show is also presented by Johnnie Walker blended Scotch Whiskey. Johnnie Walker is the world's number one scotch whiskey brand and has been responsible for lots of happy hours and convivial moments. For more than 200 years, that tradition continues today in Edinburgh where Dr. Emma Walker, Johnnie Walker's first female master blender leads a passionate team of whiskey makers. I've had the pleasure of interviewing Emma and she is so dedicated to her craft. I know some of you love having a well-stocked liquor cabinet or bar card at home, so two options to consider. First, Johnnie Walker Black label. Its nose as Emma would say, features the bold center fruit with a touch of sweet vanilla. Your tongue will pick up creamy toffee, sweet fruit and spice, followed by a warming smoky finish. If you want to experience the pinnacle in scotch making, there's Johnnie Walker Blue Label. Its nose features waves of that give way to vanilla and honey. You'll experience notes that build from caramel to hazelnut to dark chocolate and a luxuriously long warming signature smoky finish. You can learn more about Johnnie Walker blended scotch whiskey at johnniewalker.com. You'll find a deep dive into the brand's history and legacy cocktail recipes and info on the Johnnie Walker Prince's Street brand and tasting room experience in Edinburgh. I'm putting that place on my bucket list right now. Of course, always drink responsibly.
Now let's chat with today's guest. Von Diaz, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Von Diaz:
Thanks for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
You're looking good.
Von Diaz:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You got a beautiful new book that we're going to talk about today, so congratulations. Having done a cookbook, I can tell when a cookbook has been a real labor of love. This one clearly has 125 recipes. It's called a narrative cookbook. Tell folks what a narrative cookbook means.
Von Diaz:
To me, a narrative cookbook is one that is as much story as it is recipe, so it's as much storytelling as it is instruction. I would even wager that this book is 2/3 stories because recipes tell stories too, especially when you look at recipes that come from tradition, from ancestry, from elders. There are stories embedded in the technique and the specificity of the ingredients in the vessels used in the way that you eat it and in when it is served. It's a very special book to me because Coconuts and Collards, was my first cookbook, that came out in 2018, and that book was very personal. That was a culinary memoir, an exploration of my life in two worlds, the American South in Puerto Rico where I was born. This book was the natural next step of my curiosity about island life, about island people and culture.
Kerry Diamond:
You are all about storytelling, so I'm not surprised that for your newest book.
Von Diaz:
Yeah. I think I can't help it. We didn't have this term storytelling when I was growing up. I feel like it's a fairly new popular cultural concept, but I am fascinated by people in places. I love the story of how something comes to be because at this stage, sometimes when words become popular, it's like storytelling. What does that even mean? It's telling someone how something came into existence or why something happened, and the journey is so cool. I think for a book about islands, journey is built into the whole idea because part of what makes islands particularly tropical islands such special places is that they are ports of call. There are these tiny places out in the middle of the ocean that people encountered, happened upon, colonized. The movement, the journey, the transportation of thoughts, of ideas, of ingredients of people is really built into these places, so the tropics is just a wonderful place tell stories about, stories that are complicated and layered too. Very beautiful, very exciting, and also really complex.
Kerry Diamond:
How many islands are represented in the book?
Von Diaz:
Dozens for sure. The book is structured by technique.
Kerry Diamond:
I love how you organize the book.
Von Diaz:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
This photo is one of my favorite photos in the whole book.
Von Diaz:
Can you describe it?
Kerry Diamond:
It is just the most gorgeous photo of tropical fruit that you've ever seen. The papaya killed me. As soon as I saw the papaya, I just stopped dead in my tracks.
Von Diaz:
I love it too. Lauren V. Allen was my recipe photographer for this book. She's also local in Durham. This is honestly, I work of her art. She did all of that placement. There's star fruit, there's coconut, there's cantaloupe, papaya, grapefruit, pomegranate, dragon fruit, beautiful little kiwis cut like stars, and then there's that spiky melon, bananas, little tiny bananas.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the recipes first. We did a narrative cookbook with 100 different women. Whose recipes are these and how did you go about compiling them?
Von Diaz:
Sure. I engaged in the process of writing this book like a reporter. I'm a journalist by training, so I started out by just looking. I started out by understanding what is the tropics, what is the region? Okay. It's between the Tropic of Cancer or Tropic of Capricorn. The center band of the planet. All right. What are the names of some of these islands who colonized them? Anyway, that was the beginning, just understanding the region, and then I started looking, YouTube, Instagram, cookbooks. But yeah, I just started looking and listening and learning about who the people in these places were, and then I started looking at the different foods that they created.
At the beginning, I was just compiling lists of different kinds of dishes. I have this giant spreadsheet that I created with my production assistant who was a student of mine at Duke, Sophia Ramirez and I mean, it was well over 125 dishes. It was every cow hoof stew and all kinds of wild things that I found. So once I'd identified, okay, these are the most interesting dishes to me because they tell a story. They tell a story perhaps of resilience of a particular group of people, et cetera, et cetera. Then I started looking for the recipes.
Books for sure. As you can imagine, there aren't a ton of cookbooks that feature the foods of these places. I found that to be a fairly limited research approach. Websites for sure, blogs, articles in local online newspapers. I studied French when I was in high school and college, and so I have Spanish as my second language, and I had some French ability, which made it a little easier for me to read recipes in different languages and start to piece together. Okay. What's this, that and the other. Interviews with people. Some of the recipes that are in this book were told to me by people that I interviewed and then I tested them. One that I'll highlight is Pearline's Cassava with fish from Madagascar.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me how that recipe came to be.
Von Diaz:
Pearline Ernestine is the first woman to be the head of the local fishing village in Marta, Madagascar, which is a tiny remote fishing village only navigable by sea. I learned about her through the World Wildlife Federation in Madagascar. This was just one of the ways that I was researching and I'm always looking for women. It's just it's my nature. I was, of course-
Kerry Diamond:
We have that in common.
Von Diaz:
I was of course impressed by her being the first. She's also a mother of four, and I started looking at some of the limited photographs that there were of the place where she lived and just found it very beautiful and very interesting. And I contacted the World Wildlife Federation and asked if they would help me navigate communicating with her because I couldn't call her on the phone and I certainly couldn't text her, email her through them.
I met Riha, who was the photographer who had been out to her fishing village before who had photographed them. He went out and photographed her and he interviewed her for me, in particular because she speaks a dialect. That's many parts removed from French and my French isn't good enough to interview anyone. Through Riha's words, but more importantly through his images, I was able to actually see the place. I was able to see the person and I was able to see the ingredients that she was using to cook. I also asked Riha, "What does Pearline make for her family every day?" And he goes, "Every week cassava with fish." What is cassava with fish? Cassava with fish? Okay. What's in the fish? She says, "Oil, onions, some curry powder." I was like, "Got it. Okay."
So then I looked at the fish that's typical from this area. I got a little bit of information from that. Trevally is a fish that's really common in this area. It's similar to mackerel. It's very similar to mackerel, dark fleshed fish, pungent, oily. I got all the components together, wrote everything down that I could possibly imagine, and was like, "Okay. I have a little outdoor kitchen that I've created." It's as rugged as possible. I make a fire. I have a little teepee, like tent to hang a pot over a fire, and I was like, "I'm going to make this as close to the way that she made it as possible because the smoke has to get in there and all this other stuff." Then I used things that I know about how to cook fish well, just from being a seafood lover and built the recipe.
Kerry Diamond:
This is amazing. I mean, you really had to be a culinary detective to put these together.
Von Diaz:
Yeah. It was really fun. Some of the recipes are a lot simpler, like Bridget Washington... Hey Bridget... who's Trinidadian was one of my recipe developers, and so I was like, "Bridget, do you have a recipe for... Yeah, I got you." Jenn de la Vega is Filipino and one of the other recipe developers on the book. "Jen, do you have a good recipe for Lechon Kiwali? Yeah, of course. Got you." There was some of that simplicity and then there were some recipes that I did find in cookbooks that I adapted ever so slightly for a more modern standard American kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
How many would you say are recipes that literally have never been written down?
Von Diaz:
At least 1/3 I suspect, but the ones that required a sleuthing were the most exciting to me. There's another recipe for Jordanna's, eggplant chutney. Jordanna is the mom of Merry Ma Jeremy, who is an incredible conservation biologist based in the shell, and I was able to travel to visit them.
Kerry Diamond:
That was going to be one of my questions. How many islands were you able to travel to?
Von Diaz:
Not as many as I would've liked. Much of this was written during the pandemic and traveling for the equivalent of a day in a plane with a mask on just didn't feel safe or comfortable to me, but I did go to Seychelles, which is high bucket list. It's a very special place. Korea South, also bucket list. Puerto Rico. I go to Puerto Rico as often as I can, but went specifically to think of this. Then at other times in my life I'd been to other islands. I did graduate field research in Cuba and had been to Cuba as an undergrad, so I'm very familiar with that island. The cuisine in the history. I've been to Hawaii a number of times largely for work, familiar with their culture and cuisines. I went to Bali and Singapore at one point in my life, which was just a tremendously wonderful culture shock and introduction to Southeast Asian cuisine.
For the purpose of reporting the book, I traveled a little bit and then I used all of the amazing technology that we have at our fingertips now to communicate with people in other places. WhatsApp, it's the communication vehicle of choice for much of the world. Some of my sleuthing was literally texting with people in Vanuatu, calling a friend on Fiji, things of that nature, and it was really rewarding and delightful. I'm a self-taught home cook. My grandmother was my culinary muse. She certainly provided me with flavor foundations. My mom provided me with practicality. I've lived on my own for a really long time and I love to cook and I love to entertain, so you just keep cooking, you mess things up and you just keep getting better.
Kerry Diamond:
Is there talk of turning this into a TV show because as you're talking about all the islands, I'm like, "Oh my God, I want to see Von on a little plane going to all these places, meeting all these people."
Von Diaz:
Yes. Directors, angel investors, producers who want to work with me, I am ready to work with you. In a lot of ways, I'm a very fortunate person in that I came to journalism later in life. I went to grad school when I was in my thirties. You were saying earlier that I'm a storyteller and I do think that the practice was a part of me, but I don't know. I started my career as a social justice advocate working with women's survivors of violence, and that's where I knew I wanted to dedicate my time, but there was a bit of a non-sequitur here, but early in my life I knew that I wanted to contribute whatever talents I had to social justice, and I spent several years dedicated to that path and kept finding that I was doing the storytelling. I was like, "Everywhere I go, even if I'm a fundraiser, I'm providing direct services. I keep wanting to tell stories."
I decided to go to grad school for journalism, started writing. For all young journalists today, new journalists, you got to do it all, man. You got to write, you got to read. You've got to edit, shoot video, shoot photography, edit and record audio. I am very fortunate though because they put me through the gauntlet and I am a very multimedia thinker when it comes to story. That's also about accessibility to me as well. People who are visually impaired or hearing difficulties or a neurodivergent might want to enter into a story from another angle. Some people like to look, some people like to listen. Some people like to smell taste. I think I actually produced this book as if I were producing a movie or a show. It's episodic. In some ways, the techniques build on one another.
So you start with the marinating, that's a foundational technique. That's how you infuse the ingredient with flavor. Then we go to pickling and fermentation. Sometimes that's what happens when you marinate things for too long, but also is a foundational technique for wellbeing and for preserving the ingredients that we have on hand when they're available. Then we move into brazing and stewing. I would say the number one technique of island communities. And a lot of times the signature dish, the national dish of the country is a stew or a soup. In the Maldives, I believe it's mastiha is the national dish of the Maldives, and it is a gorgeous turmeric coconut curry. It's one of those curries that it's like it's all sauce, and then a beautiful piece of tuna, which is abundant in the waters around Maldives, just sat right in the middle of it with, of course basmati rice.
Kerry Diamond:
That sounds so good. This really took a village to produce. I mean, when I started going through the credits, I was like, "Five photographers, and you were one of them," and you had incredibly talented illustrator, really amazing team, and as you described it, you had all these people around the world helping you piece all of this together, really incredible. Talk to me about the team. You want to start with your illustrator?
Von Diaz:
Sure. Daniela Jordan-Villaveces is a Colombian illustrator. She lives between Columbia and the States, and she did the beautiful illustration that's on the inside cover of the book, and it was a really cool process because Lizzie Von, who was a graphic designer for this book who's at Chronicle, she sent me a bunch of awesome illustrators to consider. I love them all, and I was like, "Lizzie, I think I'm going to give you this one because I love people and I love and I love art." Daniela, she rose to the top and she created this gorgeous illustration that has each of the six islands that I profile with the techniques. And then some of the ingredients and also the tools that are found on those islands.
And the thing that I really love about this illustration, which is by design is I remember saying to Lizzie, "I was like, I want the islands to look bigger than the rest of the world." On the pages, you'll see these gigantic islands, little tiny United States, little tiny Australia, and I think that for me it's really like a visual metaphor of how rich these cultures are. So often they're thought of as being so small or insignificant or honestly, I think that a lot of island and island people are seen as backwards, as less refined, less advanced, and they are not. Their cultures are incredibly rich, dynamic, syncretic cultures. This was one way to communicate that through art.
Kerry Diamond:
You have to tell me what syncretic means.
Von Diaz:
Like hybridizing, when multiple cultures come together and become one they syncretize
Kerry Diamond:
Beautiful. When it's good. I would imagine there are some cases where it's been forced on people.
Von Diaz:
The term really is something that happens. People often ask me about what do I think about authenticity and food, and I have a prepared statement because I'm like what is authentic to one group of people is authentic to them, and a lot of times the people asking about things that are authentic don't come from that culture. In Puerto Rico, our authenticity is the hybridity. It's all of these pieces coming together to create one thing. Yes, much of that is born of necessity, of strife, of violence, and yet what emerges often is a beautiful unique culture that you can't find anywhere else, so that's Daniela.
Well, I have to talk about my editor, Cristina Garces, who is now at Ten Speed. Cristina also has an island background. Both of her parents are from islands. She is the most wonderful editor I could have ever asked for. She read hundreds of thousands of words over and over and over again. This is a really long book. It's really-
Kerry Diamond:
It is. When I lifted it up, I was like, "This has some heft to it."
Von Diaz:
Yes, it's quite heavy. She was just right alongside me figuring out how do we communicate the pleasure alongside the pain? How do we ensure that we're not generalizing but rather introducing? Anyway, she was really wonderful. Hi, Cristina. You are the best.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about your photographers.
Von Diaz:
Yes. Listen, cookbooks need to be beautiful. We know this in the industry. I love cookbooks. Who knows how many cookbooks I have. I knew that I wanted it to be beautiful, both because cookbooks should be beautiful, but also because with this book I had the opportunity to introduce people to places that they likely would have a hard time getting to, so the photography would end up being the compliment to the storytelling. This is what it actually looks like here. I'm going to tell you, but here's what it actually looks like. I knew that I wasn't going to be able to travel to all the places, but I did travel to Korea South, Puerto Rico to Seychelles.
I brought on my most trusted photo collaborator. She was a photographer on my first book, Cybelle Codish, and asked her if she would play this important role of being basically the DP on the book, the director of photography. And to ensure that Lauren V. Allen, who is my recipe photographer local to Durham, that her style of her photographs were going to match the landscape photographs coming in from freelance photographers, photographs she was taking of me on the road and photographs that I was taking in Seychelles.
She did a masterful job because as you look through the book, you can't tell where you are. There are some places that feel really distinct like Mushroom Rock in Guam is like absolutely distinct. The colors of in Vilimstein in Korea South, you know exactly where you are, but ultimately the photography serves to demonstrate how similar these places are. Because you see the same plants, the same leaves, the same colors, so she had this really important role and because she and I have worked together on multiple projects and really love working together, there was a lot of back and forth, which I love.
Lauren V. Allen, as I mentioned, was the recipe photographer. We had a tremendous time. We shot the recipes over the course of three weeks in two or three day chunks, because I have a full-time job as a radio producer for StoryCorps, so it had to happen on the weekend. And then largely using social media, identified photographers in countries that I couldn't get to. I also asked for recommendations from people who were closer. My friend Robert Oliver, who's part of the Pacific Island Revolution project, who's based out of New Zealand and Fiji and identified Riha, who I mentioned in Madagascar, who was a blessing. He was so wonderful. Kami Diaz Agranola out of Guam, who is a tremendous young fierce photographer. She's so wonderful, and Gina Ishmael in Vanuatu.
Kerry Diamond:
You've got the most beautiful design under the book jacket. All the photos are beautiful. The illustrations are beautiful and the recipes are just... I mean, you really want to cook as you go through this, so congratulations.
Von Diaz:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
How were you different when you finished the book?
Von Diaz:
Yeah. I would say it really changed me. For one, I'm from Puerto Rico and I was born there and raised in the south. Being of that place, it's a complicated reality. Because Puerto Rico is colonized. It is a part of the United States. It's a US territory, but the politics of that place are very complicated and throughout my life I've felt torn, I think, in my identity and wanting the best for my people, which may come through increased investment from the United States in the form of statehood, potentially one day, which has been on people's minds for decades now. But at the same time, knowing that there was a resistance movement that continues to this day on that island insisting that Puerto Rico was invaded and colonized and that the Puerto Rican people can take care of themselves. I tend to be Switzerland a lot in life. I am definitely a glass half full person. I like to be objective and I'm a journalist, so I-
Kerry Diamond:
I was going to say, you're also a real journalist.
Von Diaz:
Yeah. So it's like whenever possible, I try to listen to all sides. I think I came away from this research being like, no, colonizers did damage in these places. There are circumstances on these islands that are unconscionable, difficult, rampant poverty, violence against women on all of these islands. People live in really brutal conditions on tropical islands. I mean, right now there is a massive situation in Haiti. We have no idea how that's going to be resolved, and as we know, war conflict violence always impacts women more. One of the ways that I most changed was being like, "I'm not going to be apologetic or Switzerland about this anymore. I'm going to insist that people be honest, truthful about how they look at these places, particularly because all of these places are heavily touristed."
Most islands get three times the amount of visitors per year of their population on the island. People are always going and coming back with beautiful photos and presenting this veneer of their experience. I feel comfortable sitting at the intersection of pleasure and pain. I think that that is the life of island people. People of island descent, we know this reality well. Personally, I'm not saying don't go. Islands need that revenue a lot of times.
Kerry Diamond:
And they rely on tourism.
Von Diaz:
Yeah. People need to go smarter, be more thoughtful.
Kerry Diamond:
Talk about that a little bit more because I'm guilty of what you're talking about.
Von Diaz:
Sure. And I think I am too. When I had the opportunity to go to Bali, I did not speak the language. I had done a lot of research on the food because I love eating and my partner at the time had allergies, so a shrimp allergy in particular, so let me understand what the cuisine is like. I think that the key is studying the place before you go. What are the political conditions at that moment? What are the socioeconomic factors? Four star hotel in Puerto Rico might not look like a four star hotel in the states, so go to those places with the right expectation. Think twice about giving a bad review because a lot of places really rely on that, particularly when they're tourist hubs.
People go online, they find the place with the best rating. Do you really need to give them a bad rating or was it just that island had gone through a couple of weeks of bad weather and so imports were delayed, so I'm sorry, but they didn't have mango on the day that you were there. But don't give them a bad review because they couldn't make you a mango smoothie. Living on islands is tough and complex. Yeah. I mean, and to me it's just research. Watch Anthony Bourdain. Watch All. Watch “No Reservations,” and then “Parts Unknown” back to back. Watch all the shows where people go to places if that's the way you learn, but learn and leave as much money there as you can.
Kerry Diamond:
You just happen to say mangoes being imported. We didn't really talk about food sovereignty, and I know just Puerto Rico alone, how much food is brought in from the United States and how these countries are dissuaded from growing their own food and taking all of that into their own hands. It's incredibly sad.
Von Diaz:
Yeah. I think it actually is rather shocking to people, but my research, I can say with absolute confidence, most islands, if not all islands are importing the vast majority of their food. I think that that's shocking because the way that islands are presented to us and the way they are. Lush, tropical, long growing seasons, long rainy seasons, very, very fertile earth, sometimes volcanic earth because a lot of islands form from volcanoes. So on the surface you're like, "It must just be brimming with fish, brimming with fruit."
Kerry Diamond:
You think it's abundance.
Von Diaz:
It's not. There's two things happening. I think for a lot of islands, I'll say more about Puerto Rico because I feel more confident speaking about their economic system and agriculture there. Three times the amount of people arrive on these islands per year, you got to feed them, so that makes it very challenging to also continuously feed the population that lives there. Food waste can be pretty tremendous on islands. Things spoil quickly in the heat if they're not properly refrigerated.
Until I was in my twenties, I had never had a tomato that hadn't been refrigerated because in Puerto Rico we just put, everything just goes right in the fridge. It's hot. Things will spoil quickly. So you have the need of feeding the tourists and if you've got to feed the tourists, you've got to feed the people. Tourists often need certain foods that aren't necessarily local. When I was in the Seychelles, a chef there told me that one of the toughest continuous things that they need to source is smoked salmon.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh, for real?
Von Diaz:
It's not surprising. Smoke salmon is one of those foods that you can see at any all-inclusive resort anywhere on the planet. Nothing wrong with loving smoked salmon, but the Seychelles is surrounded by some of the most abundant fishing waters on this planet, and they're importing smoked salmon from Alaska and the Pacific Ocean. So that's one example of why so many things are imported because visitors need certain foods and then the locals also need certain foods. The other factor, which is the revenue structures for a lot of islands are complex. They might have industries there. Puerto Rico has a lot of pharmaceutical industry, tourism travelers, things of that nature.
It often in the case of Puerto Rico, creates a dynamic where the government is not investing in local agriculture, sometimes perhaps even making it very difficult to farm your own lands. Puerto Rico has tremendously restrictive fishing regulations as well. All of these are modes of control and they are not in the service of locals. It's a machine that continues to invest in the tourist dollar at the disservice of local people. I think I was actually rather surprised to discover that what I thought was the United States, Hawaii, Guam under the Jones Act, because that act is part of what limits trade regulations for those islands that are connected to the United States. It's not just us. By any stretch, it's all islands from what I can tell.
Kerry Diamond:
We know a lot of folks are going to pick up this book. What is the one recipe you would love for them to start with?
Von Diaz:
They're all so good. The dish that comes to mind every time that I think about, I'm like, "What's the one thing you can start with?" Is Shrimp Kelaguen. Shrimp Kelaguen is from Guam. It is a really fun snack salad. Could certainly be for a meal. I would describe it as ceviche esque. It is a technique and a dish, so you kelaguen something and something is a kelaguen. Basically, the process is finally, finally, finally chopping protein and then blending it with citrus, coconut chilies, a little soy, green onion, et cetera. It is so delicious. It's so fresh, and this one I really like because ceviches are typically made with Rossi food. This one, it's blanched shrimp, so it's also for people who are a little squeamish about Rossi food. It is cooked. It keeps for two or three days in the fridge. It's refreshing for anyone who I've either prepared it for or has tried it since. They just love it and there it's traditionally eaten with titiyas, which are a tortilla that they make.
Kerry Diamond:
You are doing a book tour. You are going to be seeing some of our friends. I saw you're going to be at Lantern with Andrea Reusing.
Von Diaz:
Yes. I actually, I shot two thirds of the recipes at Lantern. I live in Durham, North Carolina. Andrea is very loving, very generous, and I was looking for a space where I could spread out because I live in a tiny apartment with a tiny kitchen. I moved to Durham and I found a kitchen that was like New York size. I don't know how. She very generously offered up a front space. That's a special event space that we got to take over for several days at a time that has a full kitchen and refrigerator. Anyway-
Kerry Diamond:
Andrea, you're the best.
Von Diaz:
... thank you, Andrea.
Kerry Diamond:
If you're down in those parts, go visit Lantern. It's legit, one of my favorite restaurants in the country.
Von Diaz:
It's wonderful, and we're going to have a fun skewered meat.
Kerry Diamond:
Things on skewers.
Von Diaz:
Things on skewers, meat on sticks. Yeah. We're going to do all kinds of skewered things, a nice cocktail, a book wrapped into the ticket.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that April 10th?
Von Diaz:
April 10th, that's right. April 10th. There's a very exciting new thing called Cookbook Fest that is going to be in Napa, June 21st through the 23rd, and I'll be there. It's very cool. I'm going to be cooking over open fire, which is my favorite, and when you asked earlier how the book had changed me. I'm obsessed with acids, vinegars, citrus juice. I use them in abundance and I want to cook everything I can over open fire. It makes everything taste good.
Kerry Diamond:
I remember your previous book and this is such a leap in every way. It's tremendous. It's tremendous. I'm really proud of you. Yeah.
Von Diaz:
If you'll allow me a moment to thank you. When “Coconuts and Collards” came out in 2018, I think I had 600 followers on Instagram. I was working as a full-time journalist. I was writing in the evenings and on the weekends, and not necessarily trying to make a career in food, but just felt so called to it that I couldn't help myself write. It's like I just started writing because I couldn't help it. You all publish an excerpt of the book with a photo that Cybelle Codish took. There are a handful of folks who took chances on me when I was just not a known person and maybe not as flashy or fancy, didn't have a restaurant, nothing you could really buy aside from my book. And it's people like you really who give a leg up to young women of color who maybe don't have models for success, who certainly don't have financial resources to make a big splash, so thank you. It means a lot to me to be here right now.
Kerry Diamond:
That means a lot. Well, I was a big fan of yours from radio. I'm a radio nerd. Let's do a speed round. What beverage do you start the morning with?
Von Diaz:
Matcha latte with oat milk and a little bit of sugar.
Kerry Diamond:
What is always in your fridge?
Von Diaz:
Lemons, limes, and oranges.
Kerry Diamond:
What is a kitchen tool that you reached for the most when working on this book?
Von Diaz:
Probably my pilon, Mortar and Pestle. In Puerto Rico, the pilon is made of wood. It tends to be about six inches tall in depth. It is an ancestral tool. All of the oldest cultures on this planet be they islands or not have some version of a mortar and pestle. Particularly for people cooking in these incredibly environmentally vulnerable places, you need to master tools that don't require any electricity. I have made all kinds of things in the mortar and pestle, but the flavor pastes for so many dishes from islands are foundational and they are made best in a mortar and pestle that you have seasoned over time.
Kerry Diamond:
What is a cookbook that you love?
Von Diaz:
I love Reem Assil's “Arabiyya.” It's a beautiful book. I'm so impressed by her. I'm so inspired by her. She's a lovely human. She's a mom. The book is gorgeous and it's so full of heart.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?
Von Diaz:
I just got done rewatching “Queen Charlotte.”
Kerry Diamond:
Love all those. Love.
Von Diaz:
As a kid, I read Dickens and Jane Austen. I just devoured them. “Little House on the Prairie” and those were some of my favorite books as a child, so there's a part of my spirit that just loves fancy dresses and palaces.
Kerry Diamond:
Madhur Jaffrey's on our cover right now.
Von Diaz:
Yes, I saw it. So gorgeous.
Kerry Diamond:
She introduced Merchant and Ivory to each other. Isn't that amazing?
Von Diaz:
The cover right now, by the way, with Dr. Jay and Grace and Madhur Jaffrey. I was like, how beautiful and Dr. Jay is a-
Kerry Diamond:
Powerhouse.
Von Diaz:
All of them.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, absolutely.
Von Diaz:
It was an incredible experience.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm happy to see Grace also being recognized. She has been at this for a long time. She's such a good cook.
Von Diaz:
And such a humble human.
Kerry Diamond:
She's so lovely.
Von Diaz:
Oh my God.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, so sweet. Since you traveled Fairmont for this book, what's on your travel bucket list? Where would you like to go next?
Von Diaz:
I really want to go to Japan. In particular, I want to go hang out with the capybara who are hanging out in the hot tub with the yuzu. My Instagram right now is all food and capybara. They bring me so much peace to look at them and I'm like, "I want to be like that. Just warm sun on my face with citrus scents all around me." But also for Puerto Ricans, our cuisine is a new cuisine. It came about as a result of the confluence of these different cultures, and so I'm really fascinated by places that have these ancient ancestral cuisines. Many, many, many, many hundreds of year old practices and flavors, and I love Southeast Asian food and I love Japanese food.
Kerry Diamond:
It's funny what you said about your Instagram. You are clearly a more substantial human being than me because mine is all cats, cake and Taylor Swift.
Von Diaz:
I mean it's like the same though, just capybara and food, just like giant rodents and citrus and the beautiful foods of other places.
Kerry Diamond:
And the last question, if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Von Diaz:
It might be Eric Kim.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a fun answer. Tell us why.
Von Diaz:
I love Eric so much. He's also from Atlanta. We've known each other for years. He edited me some years ago and he is a person who I could be around him all day and he's very good cook. He's very funny. He's very sweet, and he strikes me as someone who could help me build a house. That's the stuff you got to think about on a desert island. What am I going to eat? How am I going to process these ingredients? Who's going to get in there and help me build a thatched roof? I think Eric would be down.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so funny the way people answer that question. You get a little insight into how they think the people who assume they're going to be rescued in 24 hours and then the people who are like, "We have to build a house."
Von Diaz:
Yes. No, I mean, listen, island rescues are difficult.
Kerry Diamond:
Von, you are a treasure. Congratulations on this beautiful book. It was great.
Von Diaz:
Thank you. This was so fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's take a short break and we'll be right back with “Top Chef’s,” Kristen Kish. You all know this, but March is Women's History Month, and of course Cherry Bombe is celebrating. I want to give a special thank you to Walmart for supporting Radio Cherry Bombe throughout Women's History Month and for Walmart's commitment to empowering women all year long. Walmart is a big supporter of female entrepreneurs and Kerry's an incredible range of female founded and fueled brands. Brands like Afro Unicorn, I love that name. The Clothing and accessories company, founded by April Showers, Bloom Nutrition supplements created by Mari Llewellyn and Goodie Girl, the gluten-free cookies and nostalgic flavors by Shira Berk. Check out these brands and more of our female fueled favorites over at walmart.com/celebrateher. You can find that link in our show notes.
For this episode, we're spotlighting B. Smith, the pioneering entrepreneur, restaurateur, and lifestyle guru. Born Barbara Smith outside of Pittsburgh. B's skills and determination became apparent early on, denied membership in her high school's Homemaker's Club because she was black. B started her own club and made herself the president. She went on to become a successful model and then opened restaurants in New York City, Sag Harbor and Washington DC. B authored several cooking and lifestyle books. Hosted the TV show B Smith with Style and produced a product line that was carried by Bed Bath and Beyond and Macy's. In 2014, she revealed to CBS news that she had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and she and her husband co-authored the 2016 memoir, “Before I Forget,” to share her story and destigmatize the disease. B. Smith is remembered for her exceptional taste, her trailblazing and her tenacity. As she said, "I have stood on a mountain of nos for one yes."
Cherry Bombe's annual Jubilee conference is right around the corner. It's taking place Saturday, April 20th at Center 415 in Manhattan, and tickets are on sale right now. It's a great day of connection and conversation. There are talks, panels, demos, great food and drink, book signings and tons of networking. Visit cherrybombe.com to snag your ticket. Some of you have asked me how Jubilee came to be. We started Jubilee in 2014 after reading historian eater about women being shut out of food conferences around the world. No one wanted to read that, but fast-forward and a lot has changed. This year's Jubilee marks the 10 year anniversary of our conference. Jubilee is a heartwarming day and we're thrilled that folks join us from around the world. I hope to see lots of you on April 20th.
Now let's check in with our next guest. Kristen Kish, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Kristen Kish:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so nice to see your face.
Kristen Kish:
Likewise.
Kerry Diamond:
So tell me how it's going. Do they record in advance, the episodes? Yeah. How much has done in advance?
Kristen Kish:
Everything's done. Everything.
Kerry Diamond:
So you know the winner, you know everything?
Kristen Kish:
Yes, but I've done my hardest to forget what happens.
Kerry Diamond:
You're welcome to announce the winner on Radio Cherry Bombe right now.
Kristen Kish:
I've completely forgotten. I don't even know who's competing.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, we're just so excited for you. You are the host, you were a winning contestant. What's different for you? Everything?
Kristen Kish:
Everything and nothing at the same time. I feel like because it was so long ago, season 10 and now we're on season 21, I will never forget what it feels like to compete, but I also have had a lot of life experience in between that I feel like has primed me, whether it was done intentionally or not for this role. So it doesn't feel completely out of place. I don't feel completely out of place. That's appropriate amount of nerves and excitement, but otherwise, it's stuff that I know how to do. I'm not saying that even just in the hosting role saying stuff I know how to do is talk to chefs, give feedback, have conversations, do it every day in my restaurant or via an email or whatever. This is what happens when chefs get together. You talk about food.
Kerry Diamond:
So what has been different for you?
Kristen Kish:
I think the biggest and most exciting difference between being a contestant or a judge and now host is that I get to see the whole thing, not just from the vantage point that I have, but when I was a contestant, I didn't see all the stuff that was happening. I got kicked out on an episode, I don't know, eight or something, and I took a different route. Guest judging, I guess judged maybe four episodes max in a row, and then this time I actually get to see the progression and the growth of the chefs that is happening in real time, which is really fantastic, and I get to taste all the food, which is equally awesome.
Kerry Diamond:
But you also have to do the worst part. You have to tell them to go home. How are you approaching that?
Kristen Kish:
It sucks and it's hard. It's hard because I know what it feels like to hear it, and I know what it feels like to have to pack your knives and go after you've spent so much time, energy, and getting there, depending on how long you stay. If you get super, super close and all of a sudden you're asked to go home, it's a heartbreaking moment. I hated to hear it, so I mean, I don't like saying it to anybody else, but it is. It's part of the job. I was like, "Is there any other way I can say it?" There is no other way you can say it.
Kerry Diamond:
Is there any other way? Can Tom do it?
Kristen Kish:
I know. I'm like, "Tom, you take this topic. I'll give the pep podcast shirt."
Kerry Diamond:
They should spread it. I feel like they should spread it around. It shouldn't just be you who has to do it. I imagine that first time was pretty terrible when you had to deliver that.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. At the beginning you don't really, you just met these people. I don't want to say that the beginning ones are any easier in that way, but in a way there's this a little still bit of a disconnect that's happening. You tasted one thing and now you're sending someone home. What's heartbreaking is seeing, because we don't see it in the moment, is I watched the first episode and seeing the after interview with people that have left, because in the moment when they're face-to-face, sometimes for me I'm like, "See you later. Get me out of here. I'm done. I can't do anymore." And then you see the interviews where they're actually telling you how they feel. That sucks. No matter if you're the first one or make it all the way, it is heart wrenching.
Kerry Diamond:
That is rough. Did you come up with a new catchphrase or are you still saying, "Pack your knives and go?"
Kristen Kish:
It's still please pack your knives and go, that has been there since the Katie Lee season.
Kerry Diamond:
That's never going to change.
Kristen Kish:
Okay. That's a “Top Chef” thing.
Kerry Diamond:
But other things have changed. Tell us a few of the things that are new this season.
Kristen Kish:
I mean, a lot of exciting things change, but it's still, I want to say with all the change, me being one of them, it is still very much “Top Chef.” At the heart and the soul and why people love this program and trust “Top Chef,” it is still there. Things like immunity no longer for quick fires. You get immunity in an elimination challenge for the following elimination challenge, which I feel adds a little bit more oomph to want to keep going and want to keep cooking and perform. Because sometimes if you got it in the quick fire, I don't want to say you step back on the elimination challenge, but maybe subconsciously you're like, "Okay. Even if I mess up, it's okay." But now it's like you want it for the next one. So you're really trying to always put your best foot forward.
One of the most exciting things for me is having Tom and Gail join me mid-season for quick fires so we can talk about it and add it into the conversation and totality of what they cooked for the entire episode. And it's nice to have their company because they like to be around them. There's money for every quickfire, which as a competing chef, when you leave your job, you're like, "I hope I make a little bit of money coming out of this." So even if you win or you don't win, I think there's 100,000 in total up for grabs in all the quick fires. Not for each quick fire, but in total.
Kerry Diamond:
That's awesome. Did you advocate for that or is that something they decided to do?
Kristen Kish:
That's something they decided to do, which I was all for. But the moment I got to say it and tell them some new rules and new things, but then put a dollar amount to how much money you could potentially earn in quick fires, that's awesome. And also being able to say $250,000 as that, when I was competing, it was 125, so the prize has doubled.
Kerry Diamond:
Nice. Remind everybody, Kristen, when you get chosen to be part of, what do you call them, contestants? You get to be one of the chefs. What happens? You basically go into hiding from your friends and your family. You have to get rid of your phones, everything. Just remind us what happens when you're chosen.
Kristen Kish:
Yeah. You leave everything behind, which means you have a very strong support system at home, which is fantastic. You hand over your phone, your wallet, any personal belongings, your wallet. There's rules, you don't need it. They basically handle everything. So it's freeing in some way, if you're that kind of person. I particularly enjoyed it because I don't have to think about my day-to-day actions. They check your bags and all that stuff, and all this is to be said because they need it to be fair. Everyone needs to be on the same starting line, so everyone only gets one notebook. You're not allowed to have cookbooks or recipes hidden anywhere.
They make sure these things are empty because otherwise there's potential. You jot down all your recipes and you have it in your notebook, so of course they're going to check all that and make sure everyone's starting at zero. You get the same amount of knives and tools. You can bring 10 things. I don't know what it is now, and you can bring a certain amount of specialty items, non-perishables that you have in your chef bin for the duration of the season. So everything is done to keep it fair, which I understand, but as you're going through it, you're like, "This is crazy."
Kerry Diamond:
And how many weeks are you sequestered?
Kristen Kish:
Roughly, six weeks, six or seven weeks, which is really nice now because the chefs, if you're that person kind of again, I would love this had it been my season. You get your own hotel room so you don't live all in the same house anymore. So my season, we lived all under one roof, which was hard for an introverted person to have time to recharge. I'm sure it's equally as difficult for an extrovert to be in a hotel room by themselves in that way for lengths of time. You're filming, most of the time, you're making friends, you're around the other chefs. You have a support system in each other,
Kerry Diamond:
So you still have opportunity to bond?
Kristen Kish:
There's plenty. I think they have common space that they have. I never saw their living situation, but yeah, they do activities. We've got to dinner, we get to have a couple meals with them, of course, on camera to be shown at a later time. But yes, there is an essence and there's a reality that is very much like you're still in the outside world, but in a more controlled way.
Kerry Diamond:
So I didn't realize you have zero access to recipes when you're a contestant.
Kristen Kish:
Everything up in your head.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Okay. So even if you are super savory when it comes to dessert or if you never bake, you have to know how to bake from scratch.
Kristen Kish:
You practice. You practice, you build it into your muscle memory. If you're smart, you have this Rolodex of basic recipes because as a chef then you can spin it off into other things. You remember what you cook, and I feel like everyone has a baked item in their memory in some way.
Kerry Diamond:
You said you can bring 10 things. Do you remember the 10 things you brought?
Kristen Kish:
I do. Well, I don't remember all 10 things. I am not a person that cooks with sciencey things, but I was like, "Well, maybe on “Top Chef” is the opportunity." So I brought, at the time, 10 years ago, maltodextrin was like a thing where you're turning any fat into a powder. So I brought Maltodextrin, never used it. And then from there I was like, "Well, I don't know what else to bring because I don't cook with these things." So I had a microplane, a mandolin, like special spoons, but the “Top Chef” kitchen is stocked. The “Top Chef” kitchen is meant to give you anything and everything that you could possibly need to cook your best, and so I never really needed to use what they call your chef bin at all during my season.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you bring any lucky thing or I don't know, just something that wasn't a cooking implement?
Kristen Kish:
Gosh, I don't think so. I'm not a superstitious person. I'm more sentimental than anything, but I went on that show without a partner, without a love interest or someone in my life like that. I'm sure now if I were to go on, I'd have pictures of my wife and notes that she wrote me, things like that. During my finale, I had a note from Barbara in my back pocket.
Kerry Diamond:
That's nice. Yeah, your mentor. Okay. So it's set in Wisconsin this season. What did you learn about Wisconsin?
Kristen Kish:
That there's more to it than just beer, cheese, curds and custard. Although all those things are really lovely, and they are some of the best in the country because of the makers and the independent farmers and the families that have over generation after generation put their heart and soul and talent into creating amazing products. And the dairy is lovely, fantastic. All the things. We got to steep a little bit into the indigenous culture and understanding what foods are part of the land. We had great guests there that were able to educate us on a lot of different new things. There is opportunity in our off time to explore the restaurants in which the immigration pattern happened. So a lot of Eastern European, Serbian, there's a Serbian restaurant that we kept going back to because the food was excellent, and her family story is just... She's one to talk to... impactful, important, and now very delicious. So that was really fantastic.
You learn about the traditions and why they're in place. I never knew about a fish boil, and I was like, "Well, what's the point of throwing kerosene onto a live fire to make things?" I was like, "Is this done just for show?" And it's actually not. It is done because way back in eras that I don't really understand or have a name to call it, I don't know. You start this huge fire to create this massive boil over because it basically takes all the scum on the top, all the impurities and fats that cook to the top, that normally as a chef you're scooping off with a ladle or a spoon, but it boils it all off because you're cooking for such a large group of people. So you learn little things like that along the way, which is really fun.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. I just remembered we ran a recipe of yours for a consummate, which I think was the absolute opposite of the boil over to get the scum off. You had the raft to clarify everything. You could be a fancy chef sometimes when you want to be.
Kristen Kish:
Less so now these days than I was.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Okay. So you go from Wisconsin to the sea, there's a cruise component to the show.
Kristen Kish:
There is.
Kerry Diamond:
How is that?
Kristen Kish:
Calling America is one of our partners. I have been on a cruise before. I know-
Kerry Diamond:
I've never been on a cruise unless the Staten Island Ferry counts.
Kristen Kish:
It's a large cruises. You don't really feel the rocking. And I've cooked on a cruise before, so I know that it's completely like most kitchens with some other little safety things implemented. It was fun, and I hope the chefs had a good time in their off time because they were able to stop and get a little sunshine along the way.
Kerry Diamond:
What else is going on with you? What are you going to do in the off season?
Kristen Kish:
Well, God, I mean there's a lot of stuff happening.
Kerry Diamond:
You always have a lot of projects going on.
Kristen Kish:
I have two that are really exciting and you'll be the first to know when I'm allowed to talk about that. I feel like so much of everything is a secret until it's not a secret. It's also like “Top Chef.” It's a secret until it's not a secret. Yeah, there's stuff. There's stuff working. There are words being written. We'll just leave it at that.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. That's an excellent hint. So much has changed in the chef world since you won “Top Chef.” What are some of the changes that you are the happiest about terms of what's better for chefs these days in their lives?
Kristen Kish:
The accountability that's being held around toxic behavior, around what I believe in some ways you grew up with these chefs, not only if you're watching them on TV, but you end up working for someone. And it's a very certain culture. Sometimes it's hard to break out of that culture like, "Well, this is what it is," and you just keep going, even if you don't want it to be that way. But activating a change that feels so intimidating and overwhelming is sometimes the thing that prohibits the change from happening at a quick pace. But I will say one of the greatest things when I opened my restaurant in 2018 was a very clear conversation. Now, you don't have to like me, but you have to want to be here and respect this restaurant and the process and people around you. You will be held accountable for your actions, but you can hold people accountable without demeaning or abusing anybody.
So there's a difference. You can be tough, you can be a boss, you make sure that you do the best job you can, but you can do it in a way that is with kindness. So I feel like a lot of, for whatever reasons, it does not matter why the inspiration to change has come for some people, but it's happening. And I can't speak across the country or restaurants at large, but I know what we're doing at Arlo Grey, when might people go and move on somewhere else, they're being led with kindness, and that will then activate change on the other side. So it's nice to see the willingness and the motivation for those people to actively keep making changes, which is really great.
Kerry Diamond:
Are the contestants different today than when you competed?
Kristen Kish:
That's a hard one to say. I feel like maybe the motivation of why you want to compete on “Top Chef” is different. It's about showcasing things, not just being on a reality TV show. I think I'd have to pull everybody and ask them. I have no idea. But from what I can tell, and having watched the first episode, they're all wanting to be there, not to become "famous" or whatever. They're there to showcase something that they love to do, to celebrate this industry, to put forth these skills and show them off as they should. And it feels really good to watch it all play out because you're like, "Everyone's really lovely. They're nice people." And then over the course of the season, obviously we will get to know everybody and that will still remain true even when there's high pressure. And that's just proof that in high pressure, high stakes environments, you can still be a good person.
Kerry Diamond:
We're going to leave it on that note. Kristen Kish, you're the Bombe. Thank you for your time.
Kristen Kish:
My pleasure.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Let me know what you think of the show and who you'd like me to feature as a future guest. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.