Sally McKenney Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, “Snackable Bakes.” Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Sally McKenney, the baker, author, and photographer behind the blog, Sally's Baking Recipes, otherwise known as Sally's Baking Addiction. Sally started blogging back in 2011 as a way to share her love of baking and she has built a big audience, which some of you may know if you've spent any time tracking down recipes online. Sally also wrote three cookbooks, “Sally's Baking Addiction,” “Sally's Candy Addiction,” and “Sally's Cookie Addiction,” and is working on her fourth. Sally joins me to talk all things' cinnamon rolls. These are such a popular treat. I'm excited to learn Sally's tricks and tips and to walk through the recipe with her. Stay tuned for our chat.
Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter for supporting today's show. As some of you know, I've been a big fan of Plugra for some time now and was introduced to it at my very first bakery job when I was just a newbie baker. Fast-forward to today, I'm a professional baker, cookbook author and recipe developer, and I continue to rely on Plugra for all my baking needs. My fridge is always stocked with Plugra sticks and solids. I especially love that Plugra contains 82% butter fat. The higher butter fat content means less moisture and more fat, and as bakers know, fat equals flavor. Plugra butter is also slow churned making it more pliable and easy to work with. I do a lot of baking this time of year for work and for myself and my family. Comfy bakes like my pistachio chocolate anytime buns and cinnamon sugar buttermilk doughnut holes, and I always reach for Plugra unsalted butter. I've also been making a lot of yeasted breads lately and I love the buttery flavor Plugra adds to my dough. Plugra Premium European Style Butter is the perfect choice from professional kitchens to your home kitchen. Ask for Plugra at your favorite grocery store or visit Plugra.com for a store locator and recipes.
Let's check in with today's guest. Sally, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk cinnamon rolls with you and so much more.
Sally McKenney:
I am thrilled to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay. Recently I was tasked by a media company that I work for sometimes with developing a coconut cake, and I did as I always do and I looked at my cookbooks. But then I also googled coconut cake to see what other peeps were making and like always happens, the first hit on Google was your coconut cake. So your site is a trusted resource for baking recipes that always work and that are beautifully photographed. You provide great tips as well as lots of hand-holding, which I love, and info on baking basics, video, tutorials, et cetera. For those that don't know you and have never googled coconut cake and seen your name pop up, can you describe your dessert style and the kinds of baked goods one finds on the site?
Sally McKenney:
Oh my gosh, I would be happy to. So I would say I stick to mostly classic desserts, classic baking, those comfort foods, lots of warm-yeasted breads and yummy desserts, the more indulgent desserts and just the kind of desserts and baked goods I feel like we all kind of grew up with. And I feel like my site is the site that people will go to when they want, just that classic recipe for something like a coconut cake or a pumpkin pie. No frills, just the best of the best that I know how to make, and I feel like you'd find that on my site.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in 2011, you started the blog, you were a self-taught home baker. What was the landscape or climate? I think I've heard you say that Instagram and Pinterest were just starting when you started the blog.
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's right. I feel like that was ages ago and Instagram, Pinterest they were kind of in their infant stages as far as being a good tool for content creators and a good avenue for them. I started my website... I've always loved to bake, so let me just backtrack real quick. I've always loved to bake and after college I was working in a corporate job and I needed a creative outlet and so I was always baking. I would bring my baked goods into the office and to parties and gatherings and get-togethers, and a lot of people would ask me for my recipes. I started just emailing them or Facebook messaging them and then I got to a point where I said to myself, you know what, let me just put these somewhere. Let me put these somewhere online that I can just send people to. And I started my blog that way.
It was more just an online place that just stored my recipes. There was no other purpose for it. I didn't see it as being a career. I didn't see it as being a place where strangers would come and find my recipes. There was no plan involved. It was just kind of like, oh, that sounds fun. This is an easy way for people to get my recipes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Within two years of starting your blog, you were able to quit your job and pay your bills mostly from hosting ads on the site, is that right? And from your first cookbook advance?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's right. So I kind of took a leap of faith there and I was working both my full-time job and running my blog, which now had strangers coming to the site. And I was able to... I remember I got my first paycheck from hosting ads on my site and it was for $80 and I felt on top of the world. I was so excited and thrilled because I had earned that money just from the things that I created and put on my website and I just felt so proud. And I knew that if I kept going, then I would be able to just kind of take off from there. I would have more time and I would have just more patience to get through it all and I could really get my creative juices flowing. And at the same time, I was also offered a cookbook deal and I just knew that was the point where I really had to take that leap of faith and just believe in myself.
Jessie Sheehan:
I don't know what the percentage is, but there are a fair amount of savory recipes on the site too. Did it begin like that as baking both savory and sweet, or did you start adding in the savory baking recipes over the years that the blog has been in existence?
Sally McKenney:
Yeah, so I started with just desserts, so lots of desserts, breads and things like that. And then I think a couple of years after I started, I started just having a lot of fun with the more savory baking recipes which has in turn turned to... There's a few dinner recipes on my website, I try to stick mostly to baking. But it's been really fun to explore that because as much as I love my butter and sugar and flour, it's nice to have fun with those savory flavors and those herbs and the cheeses and just to have fun with all of that. And in my next cookbook which I'm currently working on, I think there's about 15 or 20 savory baking recipes in there. And sometimes when people are baking, you don't always want to have those sugar mom recipes. You still want to bake something from scratch, but you maybe want it to be savory.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have a book coming out in the fall that is savory. It's like easy, savory baking recipes and the joy, because it was really hard for me to write because I'm a sweet person. But the joy of it is that when you finish you actually have dinner, or you actually have lunch or you have just a snack that isn't as you said, like a sugar and flour and butter bomb. And whenever I've tested people's recipes who make savory recipes, I'm like, they get to have dinner now. Whereas you and I, our kitchens are full of cinnamon rolls and cookies and muffins and you're just like, oh my god, so much sweets.
Sally McKenney:
You are describing my actual work days and I always have to give away all of the desserts in my house. It is ridiculous. Luckily no one's ever mad about getting a batch of cookies or banana bread or something like that, but it is also so convenient when you have a chicken pot pie that you develop the recipe and you're like, oh, well, here's dinner.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about your new cookbook number four.
Sally McKenney:
I'm so excited about this cookbook. It's going to be my biggest one yet. And I wrote three cookbooks all in a span of three to four years, and I took a little break to focus on my website and my family. And since then I've really built up my website collection of recipes, lots of breads and breakfast and cakes and cookies and pies and brownies and cupcakes. And I really wanted this book to be the main book that people want when they go to my website when they want... "Okay, Sally, what's your cookbook? What can I get?" I want to direct them to this book because it's going to include my very popular favorites. Those favorites that have been published on my site since my last book, along with some new creative ones too. So I have about 25 to 30 recipes and the book will be from my website, those big popular reader favorites.
And then about 70, 75 will be completely new that aren't available on the website. I've had such a long break between my last book that I am filled with ideas and it has been so much fun to work through this book. I'm very excited it's going to come out in 2025.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay. How many recipes?
Sally McKenney:
It's going to be about 100. And if my creative juices still keep flowing, we might be able to push it to 110 but I'm getting at least 100.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible. I can't wait. Can you tell us a little bit about Sally's Baking Challenge?
Sally McKenney:
Oh my gosh, I would be happy to. So Sally's Baking Challenge is kind of a tradition I started on my website back in 2017. And it was just a mindless little decision and I said, wouldn't it be fun if I had a recipe every month that everyone can make and they'll send me their pictures. And there will be a random winner at the end of the month, just to have more of that community sense. And again, there was no planning whatsoever. I just kind of launched this and the feedback was so positive and so wonderful that I kept it up and every month there would be more and more participants. They would be sharing with their friends and family who would then participate. And every month I feel like I got 100 more participants and this, that and the other thing. I think I got to 1200 participants one month, I was so excited. And it's been so much fun.
I did take a break from it last year to really focus on my manuscript for this book, but I relaunched it this past January. I have never seen so much participation ever. It has been so lovely. Everyone is very excited that it's back. It's just kind of a way for me to foster my community in the baking world. And I feel like in 2020 when COVID hit, I feel like a lot of people leaned on this one recipe a month challenge to kind of feel connected to other bakers in the community. So I have a big Facebook group with tons of members who are very passionate about baking. And then I think that in 2020 and 2021, it was just a way for us all to feel like we were connected. We're all baking the same thing, having a lot of fun. And then readers submit their photo and a winner is selected at the end of the month randomly. And I kind of try to think of it less as a competition and more as just a community bake. It's just something that we're all kind of doing together.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best kind of prunes out there. I'm a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. California Prunes are good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper, and antioxidants to support healthy bones. I've started making myself a daily smoothie which is a great vehicle for incorporating healthy foods into your diet. One of my favorite combinations right now is blueberries and kale with some prunes added for natural sweetness and depth of flavor. When it comes to baking you can use California Prune puree to replace some of the sugar, eggs or fat in a recipe. It's super easy to whip up, just blend prunes and water together and voila. You can also add California Prunes to any treat that calls for dried fruit like bread, scones, cakes and cookies. Prunes pair well with ingredients like chocolate, caramel, honey, coffee, even chilies. They also add sweetness and depth to savory recipes like chicken marbella, sauces or stews. For recipe ideas and more, be sure to check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
I've got great news listeners, Jubilee 2024 is taking place Saturday, April 20th at Center 415 in Manhattan and tickets are on sale now. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women and culinary creatives in the food and drink space in the U.S. It's a beautiful day of conversation and connection and I hope to see you there. You can learn more at snag tickets at Cherrybombe.com. Now back to our guest.
Now we're going to talk about your overnight cinnamon rolls, which again, if you Google, because I've done it, cinnamon rolls, this recipe will show up probably number one.
What is also really special about your recipes, at least for me, is I feel you do this kind of description of what it is the person's going to be engaging in and making and what the product is going to taste like, which is really nice and revealing. And you write this recipe yields a pan of buttery soft, gooey cinnamon sweet and extra fluffy homemade cinnamon rolls topped with tangy cream cheese icing. So peeps, that's what we're going to talk about. All right, first things first, we're going to make the dough, so we're going to whisk some warm milk. You say whole milk's the best for the rich taste, but you could substitute buttermilk or low fat. Just don't go in the no fat direction, that could be a little problematic. Are you usually choosing whole milk when you're making this since that's sort of the first option you give us? And is there a special whisk that you love when you're doing the stage of the recipe?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, I usually reach for whole milk when I'm making a rich dough like this. When a dough needs fat in it, usually whole milk is my top choice. I've made these with 2%, 1%, I've made them with non-dairy, the best results are going to be from that whole milk. A low-fat buttermilk actually works very well in these for that very rich kind of almost tangy flavor. It's delicious, but usually whole milk it's usually what I have on hand. I use it in a lot of my baking, so that's my number one recommendation. For whisks, I don't know, I don't have a favorite. I like wire whisks, I usually use wire whisks. As long as it's nice and sturdy, you're good to go.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And we're going to add a little bit of granulated sugar in with this milk right now, and then our yeast, and I'll talk about the yeast in a second. But can you tell us why we add just a tiny bit of sugar right now?
Sally McKenney:
Sure. So the sugar feeds the yeast and in this step we're proofing the yeast. We're making sure that the yeast is active. What we're looking for when we're whisking this warm milk, a little bit of the sugar and all of the yeast together, after a while, after about five to 10 minutes we're going to see it frothy on top. We're going to see some bubbling. We're going to see it a little foamy on top, and that's how we know our yeast is good, it's active, it's ready to go, it's going to work in the recipe. If none of that happens, if it just kind of looks like beige milk without any froth, your yeast could be dead. It could be expired. Maybe it's still not the expiration date but some yeast can die. You want to in this step that sugar is feeding the yeast, making sure that it's proofing properly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you call for active dry but you say you can also use instant yeast. Do you have a preference, A, and B, if we're using instant, can we skip this process?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, you can skip this process, this initial proofing step if you're using instant yeast, it's honestly become a habit for me. So even if I'm using active dry or if I'm using instant yeast, I'm still going to proof it. I'm going to proof it because I really just want to make sure that that yeast is active. Typically, with instant yeast you can mix it right with the dry ingredients as you probably know, Jessie, but I always take the five minutes to do this step because I don't want to learn later in the process that my yeast was dead.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you had a choice, would you always choose active dry over instant?
Sally McKenney:
In this recipe, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. I always pick instant because I like to skip steps and I like things that are easy, but I have had other bakers on the podcast who really think you can tell a difference between when you make something with instant yeast versus when you make something with active dry.
Sally McKenney:
You're going to notice a difference because the dough won't rise as quickly. It's going to be a slower rise, which in turn gives the dough a little more flavor. Which I think is very important for this recipe because you can let the shaped rolls rise overnight for a nice slow rise. And that active dry is going to keep them rising at a slower rate versus the instant yeast. I am all about taking that time when you can because the results are going to be that much better.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that's what I've heard as well. So we're letting our yeast and sugar and milk proof in the bowl of our stand mixer. We're going to cover that and allow it to sit for about five minutes until it's foamy on top. Once it's foamy, we're going to turn the mixer onto medium speed. We can use either the dough hook at this stage or the paddle attachment, which I love. I have changed the way I do things and I am starting with a dough hook and skipping the paddle altogether with yeasted dough. Is that what you do as well for this sort of initial mixing stage?
Sally McKenney:
Yes. So I use a dough hook when I can, but with this recipe I want people to know that if you don't have a dough hook, don't worry about it. Don't worry, you can use a paddle attachment to bring all of these ingredients together. Even Jessie, if you don't have a stand mixer you can bring it all together in a large bowl with a wooden spoon or a silicone spatula. I wanted to make this recipe approachable for pretty much any kitchen, well stocked or not well stocked. And so usually I reach for the dough hook, if you don't have one, a paddle attachment is totally fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. I guess I didn't understand that because I think of all stand mixers coming with both. But you're right, somebody might not have the dough hook and that I get it. You're saying, use the paddle, it's going to be fine. I was thinking that there was some difference that we would get if we used one or the other. And you did say yes, that we can absolutely use a mixing bowl with a wooden spoon or a flexible spatula. But you said hand mixers might be a mistake just because that dough gets stuck in the beaters.
Sally McKenney:
Yes. So this produces a nice generous amount of dough and it can be a little sticky and you're going to run into problems with the dough being too heavy and too sticky for your hand mixer beaters. And it's just going to keep getting stuck in there. It's going to be very frustrating. So if you don't have a stand mixer, it's best to just go ahead and mix the dough by hand and it takes a little arm muscle but it's completely doable.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you like a big glass mixing bowl, a big metal mixing bowl, do you have a preference?
Sally McKenney:
I don't have a preference, but when I am filming recipe videos or when I'm shooting step-by-step photos, I use glass so you can see better inside the bowl. When I'm at home and I'm not doing it in front of a camera, I usually use metal because that's usually what I have.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love glass bowls also because if you need to melt butter or chocolate or anything in the beginning of your recipe let's say, you can shove it in the microwave and I love microwave.
Sally McKenney:
Right. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So once foamy, we're going to put the stand mixer on medium speed. We're going to beat in additional granulated sugar and some softened butter. And that's unsalted butter, yes?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's unsalted butter. And I know you're with me on this, I choose unsalted butter so I can control the amount of salt in a recipe. And I feel like that's very important in a yeasted dough especially, or really with anything you're baking because the salt content can vary brand to brand.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we add our softened butter and we're going to mix that together until the butter is slightly broken up. We're going to add some room temp eggs and some salt. Do you like kosher salt?
Sally McKenney:
I do like kosher salt. I usually use just regular table salt in my baking, it's just what I always have on hand. But you can absolutely use kosher salt in this recipe. I found the same amount is completely fine. I love Morton salt.
Jessie Sheehan:
The blue box?
Sally McKenney:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're going to beat on medium speed until combined. But here's a good Sally tip, you say the butter won't mix into the mixture perfectly, so don't be alarmed if it stays in pieces at this stage.
Sally McKenney:
Yes. So I always try to include that in my directions, what you can expect to see because I remember when I'm baking something from a recipe in a cookbook or recipe online and something doesn't look right, I just want someone to hold my hand and tell me it's going to be okay. So I try to include that in this recipe in particular because the base of the recipe before you add flour is just basically liquid and the eggs, and then you have this softened butter and it's going to stay chunky until you start adding the flour. So do not be alarmed if it just kind of floating there in pieces.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like in a lot of my recipes you'll see, don't worry, don't worry, don't worry, because I'm describing something that I know people are going to freak out about. I'm like-
Sally McKenney:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to switch the mixer to low speed, and while it's running we're going to start to add either all-purpose flour or bread flour. Can you tell us what each one brings?
Sally McKenney:
Sure. So when I'm making a yeasted dough, most of the time I'm going to reach for bread flour because it has a higher protein content and it just develops a chewier final product, a chewier bread, a loftier bread, and all-purpose flour is completely fine. In this recipe particularly it's completely fine, you're not going to notice that much of a difference. But if I'm making something like a sandwich bread, I definitely tell a difference versus when I use bread flour versus all-purpose. I get a taller loaf. It has more structure just from that increased protein content. So with this, you can really use either. Again by habit, I usually choose bread flour just because I'm making a yeasted dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to add a little bit of the flour at a time, making sure it's fully incorporated before we add the next amount of flour. We're going to stop the mixer, scrape down our bowls as needed. Are you using a silicone spatula when you're scraping your bowl?
Sally McKenney:
Yep, that's exactly what I used, is a silicone spatula, making sure... The dough is going to be sticky at first, so it's going to be sticking to the sides of the bowl. Grab your silicone spatula and give it a good scrape around the edges and then start the mixer again. And I usually do that a couple of times during the process.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then once all of the flour is added, we're going to beat the dough until it comes together and pulls away from the sides of the bowl, which should take about three minutes. But the dough will still be quite soft at this stage.
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's right. So after all of the flour has been added, I want people to know that it's still going to be soft. It's going to be soft. You're not looking for a super firm dough and you want it to be a little tacky for the next step when you're kneading it, because that's just going to help create those extra soft rolls. So after all the flour's added, yep, you're just going to keep mixing it until it pulls away from the sides of the bowl. If it's not after three minutes, you can add a little more flour just until you get that consistency. And then again, keep in mind the dough will be soft.
Jessie Sheehan:
And will it clean? Literally sometimes when I make a dough it will literally clean the sides and sometimes it's a little stickier, so there'll be a bit of dough on the sides but mostly it's around that hook.
Sally McKenney:
Mostly it's going to be around that hook, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great.
Sally McKenney:
It might be sticking a little bit to the bottom of bowl and that's fine because in the next step when you're kneading it, you can add a little more flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And I think there's a note in the recipe that if you've been using the paddle attachment but you happen to have a dough hook, you can switch to the dough hook now.
Sally McKenney:
That's right. For the kneading step, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
But could you also say, and this is again just like a tip or a trick I picked up from another guest because I was always switching, always going from paddle to dough hook. If the person has both, do you recommend they use each one or is it okay to use the dough hook the entire time?
Sally McKenney:
So it's okay to use the dough hook the entire time, and usually that's what I'm doing because I don't feel like having another thing to clean. So I'm going to use the dough hook the entire time. I just find that it's just easier to keep the one attachment on your stand mixer. If you are using the paddle attachment in those first couple of steps, you will find the dough will come together quicker than if you were using the dough hook just because it can cover more surface. It's just kind of really combining those ingredients. The dough hook will take a little longer to really get those ingredients combined. You'll definitely be scraping around the sides of the bowl a little more, but that's fine. Either way is fine. But with this step when you're kneading the dough, definitely use the dough hook if you have one. If you don't have a dough hook, you'll want to knead it by hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good to know. So we've switched to the dough hook if we were using the paddle and if we have one, we're going to beat on low speed now for an additional five minutes. So we did three in that first stage, now we're going to do five. Or as you said, we're going to knead by hand on a lightly floured surface for about five minutes. And if kneading by hand, we're going to keep a small bowl of flour nearby to continually flour our hands because the dough is quite sticky at this point.
Sally McKenney:
That's right. So you want to use flour sparingly in this step. You don't want to over flour the dough as you're kneading it just because you want to keep it kind of soft and tacky, because that's what's going to give you those big, fluffy soft rolls. But you want just enough flour to keep it from sticking too much to your hands. If you are using your mixer, that is going to be just enough flour to keep it sticking from the sides of the bowl because the more you mix it, the stickier it's going to get. So just keep in mind to only add a little bit of flour at a time to keep it from sticking to either your hands or the sides of the bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
You mean the stand mixer bowl, you would add a little bit of flour at this stage into the bowl if it seems too tacky?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, correct. If you're using the dough hook and kneading it with your mixer, yes, you can do either.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. What we are looking for is basically for the dough to be off of the sides and kind of almost attached around the hook. Correct?
Sally McKenney:
That's right. And you're looking for a stretchy dough. So the dough after it's been kneaded long enough, after those five minutes the dough should be stretchy and it shouldn't be crumbly and breaking at all. That means that the gluten networks have formed properly and all of this science words thrown in there, you're looking for it to be nice and voluminous and stretchy. And you can test the dough actually two ways just to make sure it has been kneaded long enough. And I wanted to include this in the recipe because I remember when I first started baking with yeast, I didn't know how long I needed to knead dough and some recipes included it and some didn't. And so there's two ways you can test so you know that your dough is ready to rise. You can do a finger poke test and that's the dough.
You kneaded it for five minutes, you can poke it lightly with your finger and if it bounces back, you know it's been kneaded long enough, it's ready to rise. Or you can do something called a window pane test. And this is something I've learned over the years, and it's where you tear off a small piece of dough like the size of a golf ball, and you very slowly stretch it out gently until it's thin enough for light to pass through it. So holding it up to a window pane and if it stretches thin enough to that point and doesn't tear, it's been kneaded long enough. If not, you'll want to keep kneading for another minute or two until it does pass either of those tests.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once we've passed all our tests and when we have a student dough, we're ready for the first rise. So we're going to place our dough in a lightly greased large bowl with oil. Is there a type of oil? Do you use a spray? What do you like to grease the pan with?
Sally McKenney:
You can really use anything. You can use butter, you can use oil, you can use vegetable oil or olive oil, or you can use nonstick spray. Really what you're looking for is when the dough rises in this step, you don't want it sticking too much to the sides of the bowl because then you'll just have a heck of a time getting it all out after it rises. You just want a nice slick surface area that the dough will be touching as it rises.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to cover our bowl with aluminum foil, which I have never heard of. And that's the first one you mentioned I think, is that... I usually use plastic wrap or a dish towel, is aluminum foil or tin foil your go-to for covering the bowl?
Sally McKenney:
I usually use a kitchen towel because I have that right there on my counter. But yeah, aluminum foil or plastic wrap is fine. I don't have a favorite, but aluminum foil works if you have that on hand and you can just cover the bowl and make sure that it's nice and tight so the dough can rise in that enclosed environment.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was making a yeasted dough recently, and at this stage I had covered it in plastic wrap but it wasn't very tight. And I have a convection oven and I placed it on top of my oven and the kind of warm fan air was warming up my dough because I wanted to kind of speed up this rise a little bit. And the top of the dough got so hard and dry and I realized that I think that that impacted the dough's ability to rise. It couldn't get any larger because of this dry top, and it was like a great learning experience, although also a very sad one because it showed me that there is a reason that we cover the bowl.
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's right. That has happened to me so many times. I have not closed it tight enough and then you're right, it kind of creates this barrier and then the dough can't rise anymore. And you have to start all over or you can continue and your baked good just probably won't be as it should be. So you want to make sure that it's airtight in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, so now we're going to let it rise in a relatively warm environment for about two hours or until it doubles in size and this is happening on the counter. But I have to tell you, on Christmas morning I made cinnamon rolls and I needed to speed things up because I was worried my kids were going to wake up. And so I did what I've never done before, which is like I heated up the oven then I turned off the heat and then I put the bowl in there. Oh my gosh, Sally, they rose so quickly. And I'm sure that I sacrificed maybe some flavor in not letting the rise long enough, but do you ever do that? It was brilliant.
Sally McKenney:
Yes, I do that all the time. I have young and patient children and sometimes we just need our cinnamon roll. Yes, so I do that. I do that when I'm in a rush for sure. Again, with that slower rise you are going to notice a little bit of a better, more developed flavor. But cinnamon rolls are good no matter what. You have all of that cinnamon gooeyness and the icing, you're not going to notice a huge flavor difference. So yes, I take the shortcut when I can. I heat the oven to a pretty low heat, usually around 150 Fahrenheit and turn the oven off and I stick the dough in there. I let some of that warm air come out a little bit then I shut the oven door and there you go. There's your warmer environment for the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's such a great trick. I don't know why it took me so long to do it, but anyway, I'm in love with that trick. Okay, now we're going to grease the bottom and sides of a metal or a glass nine by 13 inch baking pan or dish. Do you have a favorite kind of baking dish that you use?
Sally McKenney:
Sure. So I really like my Pyrex glass, nine by 13 inch baking dish for this particular recipe. Metal is also great. I like glass because I can see when the edges of the cinnamon rolls are nice and browned. I do the same thing with pies. When I'm making pies, I like to use glass because I can see that the bottom of the pie especially is cooked through. You don't have those soggy bottomed pies. I do the same thing with pies. And my tip I feel like with this step is to just kind of avoid ceramic if you can, because ceramic baking dishes are thicker usually, and cinnamon rolls that are this large just will not bake as evenly. So I prefer metal or glass and I recommend that to readers at home.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to grease the pan and then you say, or you can line it with parchment, so you don't do both. You're either greasing it all or you're putting down a piece of parchment and then maybe just greasing the sides because I usually do both. I grease, put down my parchment and then I don't grease the parchment part.
Sally McKenney:
Right. Yeah, I usually don't grease the parchment if I'm using parchment. I understand why you grease the pan probably to help the parchment stick, am I right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Sally McKenney:
Yeah, which obviously is great. It avoids the headache of that parchment paper not fitting or not being usually hard to work with when you're putting it in a pan, parchment paper is. But I usually use either, I don't usually grease the pan when I'm using parchment paper. I just kind of haphazardly put it in there and once I get a cut cinnamon roll in there, usually I'll move the parchment paper to make sure that it is evenly in the pan. Once I have some weight on it.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you don't worry about the roll sticking to the sides of the pan.
Sally McKenney:
No, if it's just a bare pan I am greasing it, but with a parchment paper I do not grease it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, because you're making a parchment sling so it goes up the sides of the pan.
Sally McKenney:
Yes
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I love that. Well, we'll get to that. But that's what I'm always... With cinnamon rolls do I want to serve them out of the pan I made them in? Do I want to invert them? But we'll get to that. So at this point we're going to punch and roll out our dough. So we punch down dough to release air. Remind us why that's important because I feel like for somebody who's been doing this for a long time, the punching is new to me. I was always like, oh, look at all the beautiful yeasted dough here. I don't want to hurt all of that beautiful air and lightness it has, but punching is important.
Sally McKenney:
It is in this recipe, and there are several recipes out there where you don't want to deflate any of the air. With this recipe because you need to shape them, you'll want to just release the air before you turn it out onto your work surface just so it's easier to roll out because you don't want a lot of air bubbles in the dough as you're rolling it out. And then as you're rolling it out into the big rectangle, which we'll talk about in a second, and then rolling it up because then you're going to have all these air bubbles, these gaps between the cinnamon filling and the dough and then it's just not going to rise as much. So you want to make sure you're getting out a lot of the air. It's a gentle punch. And then when you're rolling it out, it's going to release the air anyway in that step too. So I just kind of give it a little head start.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now on a lightly floured work surface using a lightly floured rolling pin, and I wondered do you like a French pin? Do you like a pin with handles?
Sally McKenney:
I love all pins. I love all rolling pins. I usually use a wooden rolling pin. It's just kind of what I've been using over the past several years. French rolling pins are great too. I really like French rolling pins for pie dough. I feel like it really helps me get a nice even thickness. With a yeasted dough, with this one, it doesn't matter as much. You don't have to be as precise, so just a regular wooden rolling pin is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to roll the dough into a 12 by 18 inch rectangle and the dough will be smooth. We want it smooth, evenly thick. If the dough shrinks as you roll it out, you need to cover it lightly and let it rest for about 10 minutes to relax gluten and then it's going to stretch out more easily. I'm so impatient that I never do that even though I know I should. It's like I waste more time fighting my dough than if I just let it rest for five minutes.
Sally McKenney:
I am the same way. Okay, do as I say and don't do as I do because I am the same way. I get frustrated and impatient and I just keep adding pressure and rolling it out like, why won't you stay in the same shape? But in reality, if you just give the dough a break, it has went through enough with all of the rolling and it is just fighting you on this. It's not keeping its shape, it's shrinking back, honestly, if you just cover it, I just cover it with a clean kitchen towel and I return to it in just five to 10 minutes, it will keep its shape then because the gluten has had a chance to relax. It's not mad at you anymore and it will stretch out much easier.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to spread the filling on the dough and we're going to spread some softened butter. And you say the softer the butter is, the easier it is to spread, maybe microwave it a little bit if needed. Obviously be careful we don't want to melt it. We're going to spread that over the dough and I don't know why I do this because now I'm not going to anymore, but you don't seem to have borders. You're just brushing to the edges, which makes perfect sense. I was always making like a border when I was cinnamon roll making.
Sally McKenney:
No, I want every last inch of that dough covered.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course, and I was just going to ask because my own recipe... Because next we're going to be sprinkling sugar and cinnamon, we'll talk about that, but I'm always using melted butter with the cinnamon sugar and making a paste. But sometimes I have found that the paste is really hard to spread on the dough. Is there a reason why you are not using melted butter and just soften butter and then sprinkling on the other ingredients?
Sally McKenney:
So I've tested it with melted butter with this recipe and a few others. I find that the filling gets a little greasy and almost too gooey. I kind of want it to keep its texture a little more, and I use super soft butter. So even softer than the butter you used in the dough just so it's nice and easy to spread. I feel like it holds onto that topping a little more, which will then become the filling. And it becomes nice and gooey, but it doesn't become greasy and it doesn't melt out of the bottom. As the rolls bake, I feel like when I've used either too much filling or melted butter in the filling too much of it, and then it kind of just pools at the bottom and then it might burn.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to spread with our softened butter, then we're going to combine cinnamon and either light or dark brown sugar in a small bowl.
Sally McKenney:
So I really like McCormick brand cinnamon, and I also like Penzey's cinnamon. McCormick is just very easy to find, I feel like in most grocery stores. Also, it's based out of Maryland where I live, so I am a little brand loyal there. So you'll mix that with the brown sugar.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to mix those together in a small bowl there, then we're going to sprinkle it evenly over the butter. Sometimes in situations like this I will like pat the sugar just gently to make sure it sticks to the butter. But is that really not necessary here because with that softened butter it just sticks and you're ready to go?
Sally McKenney:
I find it sticks really well because I am using a generous amount of butter. In this filling I find that it's no problem sticking. If it is kind of loose, then packing it down like you described is definitely helpful. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So we're going to tightly roll up the dough to form an 18-inch log, so the long side of the dough should be facing us. That'll make it easiest I think, into this log. And if any filling spills out just sprinkle it right back on. I love that. Cut into 12 even rolls about one and a half inches wide. Do you like a knife or a bench scraper or dental floss, what are you loyal to?
Sally McKenney:
So I'm loyal to just my sharpest knife, so I just use my sharpest knife that I have. I've seen a lot of people use the dental floss. I just don't usually have that in the kitchen and I just grab my sharpest knife. I make a nice quick cut right down into the dough. If they get a little oblong, that oval shape from the weight of the knife hitting it, then I just kind of reform into a nice circle, to a nice round.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now it's time for our second rise. There are two different sets of instructions because you can make this dough for overnight or you can make this dough right away. So if we're making overnight rolls, we're going to cover our rolls tightly with plastic wrap at this point?
Sally McKenney:
It can be, again, aluminum foil or a plastic wrap. I would avoid the kitchen towel here because you're putting it in the fridge and that might not be as tightly closed to that cold air. So plastic wrap or aluminum foil is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And we're going to refrigerate for eight to 12 hours, our maximum is 16 hours. Now, is that because after 16 hours just the yeast has trouble doing its thing as it were?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, it's going to have trouble doing its thing. I find it just kind of stops and you're not going to get any type of rise when you do bring it out into room temperature. The yeast is just kind of like, you know what? I'm done here. And it just kind of pieces out. And so I find 16 hours is the absolute max when doing this. You can always do it the night before, so just keep it to a round eight to 12 hours that you're putting it in the fridge. So do it at night before going to bed.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And then the next morning we're going to remove the rolls from the refrigerator and allow them to rise on the counter for one to two hours. Now two questions, do we want them covered while they're doing this rise? Is my first question. And after one to two hours, what are we looking for?
Sally McKenney:
Sure. So you'll want to keep them covered. So when you take them out of the refrigerator, do not uncover them. And then you're looking for puffiness. So you're going to get a little bit of rise overnight. And then the next morning when they're rising at room temperature, you're going to see them expand even more. And doing that overnight rest in the refrigerator again, it is going to get you better flavor. I have done this just all in one go, still very delicious. You'll notice that little bit of heightened flavor from the overnight rise. Mostly I just do that because I don't have all the time in the morning to be making a recipe with two rises and then baking and everything. And so I usually do the overnight method just because it's more convenient.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. If we weren't doing the overnight method, once we finished arranging those rolls, we would cover them tightly. That could be a dish towel if it needed to be. And we're leaving that to rise on the counter for about one hour until puffy.
Sally McKenney:
Exactly. Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now we're going to bake. We're going to preheat the oven to 350. We're going to bake for about 25 to 28 minutes until lightly browned on top, though after about 15 minutes we're going to tent the rolls with a piece of aluminum foil if the tops are browning too quickly.
Sally McKenney:
Right. So you could have hot spots in your oven. Usually I bake these on the center rack. If for some reason your oven runs hotter than others and you notice the tops are browning too much very quickly after only about 10 to 15 minutes, you'll want to tent the whole pan with aluminum foil which will kind of protect those tops and make sure the rolls, the tops and the bottoms and the centers all bake evenly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And this is kind of just a silly technical question, but when you're tenting mid-bake, whether it's a pie or whether it's cinnamon rolls, do you take it out of the oven, close the oven door, put it on the counter, grab your tin foil or are you trying to kind of do it while it's still in the oven?
Sally McKenney:
So I kind of do it while it's still in the oven, and you have to be very careful about this because I have burned my arms. You have to be super careful doing that. You can do it either way, but I usually just keep them in the oven because I don't feel like taking them all out and then tenting it. My oven has racks I can pull out, so I pull them out, I tent it. I try not to let the aluminum foil touch the top because I don't want the top of what could be still sticky rolls sticking to the aluminum foil. And then I shove the rack back in and I close the oven. I try to make it a quick process. So I already have my foil cut from the box and it's ready to go. It's in my hands, open the oven and I try to do it as quickly as I can so not too much hot air gets out.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. One more question, are you trying with your fingers crimp it around the edges? So I have a convection oven, so I have things that fly around in my oven because of the fan. But can you just almost lay the tin foil on and it will stay put or do you have to work with it to kind of make it stick to the pan?
Sally McKenney:
I usually just kind of lay it on and then I try and literally tent it, make it higher in the center. That foil it's like heavy duty foil. Sometimes it's labeled as foil use on the grill, so it's a little heavier. It's heavy duty and it holds its shape better. So that's very good for tenting your baked goods. And I kind of make the center a little higher and then bring the edges lower over the two ends of the pan. So it is kind of like a tent, but I understand if you have a convection oven, you'll want to attach those ends of the aluminum foil to the pan, so you can do it that way too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. Yeah, so now we're going to remove the pan from the oven. We'll place it on a wire rack for about 10 minutes and we're going to make the icing. In a medium bowl using a handheld or stand mixer fitted with a paddle attachment or whisk attachment, the whisk attachment would be if we were using the handheld mixer or would you put the whisk in your stand mixer?
Sally McKenney:
The whisk attachment and the stand mixer, yes. If you're using your hand mixer, just those regular beater whisk looking attachments are fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, great. I didn't realize you were... Because I don't think of whipping cream cheese with a whisk, but I love that.
Sally McKenney:
It gets out those little lumps. And I find it works better when you're using a stand mixer, your whisk attachment will just work those lumps out much quicker. So I usually use that when I'm making cream cheese frosting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No, I had a whole chocolate malted cream cheese frosting situation this weekend, and no matter how long I beat my frosting it was lumpy.
Sally McKenney:
I know.
Jessie Sheehan:
So annoying. Then I kept going and then I even picked them out with a toothpick after. I frosted, I'm literally taking out my lumps. I'm like, I do not get paid enough to pick out cream cheese lumps. But anyway, I digress. So we're going to beat our cream cheese Philadelphia brand. You have a favorite cream cheese?
Sally McKenney:
I do like Philadelphia brand. Yes, in a pinch I'll just buy store brand, but I like that Philadelphia brand.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, me too.
Sally McKenney:
Good flavor, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to whisk the cream cheese on medium speed until smooth and creamy. We're going to add some confectioners sugar, some cream or milk. Why the choice? Just to give people if they want to be a little extra, they do the cream. If they want to use milk, they do that.
Sally McKenney:
I like to give the option because you're using milk in the dough. So it's just you obviously already have it, so you can go ahead and use it in the icing. If you have heavy cream, you want to be extra for a super creamy luscious frosting, go ahead and use a tablespoon of heavy cream. But again, I know it's annoying to buy something that you might not usually have and only use one tablespoon of it. So I like to give the option here, just go ahead and use milk. Just use the same thing you used in the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love it. I try to do that too even though I love heavy cream, so usually I'm like, but please just grab the cream if you have it in the fridge. Now we're going to add vanilla. Is that also McCormick for you?
Sally McKenney:
I usually use homemade vanilla, so I make homemade vanilla extract. If I don't have that or if I've used it all or if I don't feel like grabbing it, I also have McCormick, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. Could you make this frosting by hand if your cream cheese was super soft?
Sally McKenney:
Totally. You can go ahead and do this by hand. You can use a whisk, especially if that cream cheese is super soft. You're going to have just a very easy time with just your whisk, getting any of those little lumps out. It works especially if it's really soft, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. And we're going to beat or whisk on low speed for about 30 seconds. We're going to switch to high speed and beat for about a minute. What's the consistency we're looking for? Is it standing up with peaks like a frosting?
Sally McKenney:
Yeah, a little bit. It's standing up like peaks. It gets a little thinned out when you add that cream and milk, which makes it super luscious and yummy on top of those cinnamon rolls. But you'll have a little peak, just a little one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you like to frost the rolls inside the pan? Do you like to invert them onto a cutting board, then flip them back over? How do you serve these?
Sally McKenney:
I serve them right out of the pan. So whether I lined it with parchment or if I just greased it, I usually serve them out of the pan. And when I frost them, I just kind of take, you can use a knife, or you can use a spatula, or you could use a spoon, you can use an icing spatula, any which way you'd like and I spread it on each individual one. Or I just kind of scoop it all out if I'm in a rush, scoop it all out with the silicone spatula and then spread. You can do really anyway.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I love in all your recipes you have your make ahead and your storage instruction. So if we're freezing these, you recommend freezing after they're baked and then thawing and warming up before enjoying, or your other way which I also think is really interesting is to actually bake them for about 10 minutes to almost set them and then freeze them. Is that because if you do it that way, you're not going to kill that yeast because the yeast was already activated by the oven?
Sally McKenney:
Yes, that's true. So I find that that little of part baking step before freezing them, it's just going to kind of set that shape and they're not going to over rise or anything like that when you take them out of the freezer. It just kind of helps set that shape, gets that baking process going. And then when it is time to bake them, you can just take them out of the freezer. I usually place them in the fridge overnight to thaw, and then once they're thawed you go ahead and finish baking. So it kind of makes that baking step even quicker.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Sally. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Sally McKenney:
You are so sweet, Jessie. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter and California Prunes for their support. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your baking buddies about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.