Sohui kim transcript
Sohui Kim:
And there are ghosts there. Good ghosts. I think that is part and parcel of walking into a space that's been there for so long. Its affected so many people's lives. And you can't help but to feel these spirits. I'm happy to report that they're all positive.
Kerry Diamond:
Hey everybody, you are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Today's guest is Sohui Kim, chef and co-owner of Gage & Tollner, the historic Brooklyn restaurant that she and her team have breathed new life into. Sohui is also the chef and co-owner of Insa, a fun Korean barbecue and karaoke spot also in Brooklyn. She is the author of two cookbooks, Korean Home Cooking: Classic and Modern Recipes, and The Good Fork Cookbook. Sohui joins us today to talk about Gage & Tollner, the history behind the restaurant, the menu, the Edna Lewis connection, and the community that chipped in to help resurrect the historic space.
I'd like to thank today's sponsor, Kerrygold, maker of beautiful Irish butter and cheese made with milk from grass fed cows. We'll hear more from our friends at Kerrygold in just a minute. And Sir Kensington's, maker of some of my favorite condiments. My fridge actually temporarily died the other week, long story. And my first reaction was, "My condiment collection!" Sir Kensington's has a fun, new honey mustard fry sauce that you can snag right now on Amazon. Use it straight up or get creative and make your own sauce or vinaigrette. You can find the link for the fry sauce in our show notes.
I'd also like to thank everyone who came to our Cooks & Books celebration the other week at ACE Hotel, Brooklyn. The team and I had so much fun celebrating the best cookbooks and authors of the season, including the Korean Vegan, Vallery Lomas, and Samah Dada. Thank you to the ACE Hotel, Brooklyn, Le Creuset, and Maple Hill Creamery for their support. Now, a quick word from our friends at Kerrygold, and then my conversation with Sohui Kim.
Kerrygold ad read:
Kerrygold is delicious. All natural butter and cheese. Made with milk from Irish grassfed cows. Our farming families pass their craft and knowledge from generation to generation. I'm 5th generation. It goes back over 250 years. This traditional approach is the reason for the rich taste of Kerrygold. Enjoy delicious new sliced or shredded Kerrygold cheddar cheese. Available in mild or savory flavors at a retailer near you. Find your nearest store at kerrygoldusa.com.
Kerry Diamond:
Sohui Kim, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Sohui Kim:
Thank you so much. So great to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
Welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe. It's been awhile.
Sohui Kim:
It's been a minute.
Kerry Diamond:
You've got a few things going on since the last time we spoke to you.
Sohui Kim:
Just a little bit. Just a little bit.
Kerry Diamond:
So we are going to talk about Gage & Tollner, your beautiful restaurant. And as I was working on the questions, I realized that my questions basically could be condensed into who, what, where, when, why and how. So I thought it might be fun to just go through those.
Sohui Kim:
Sure.
Kerry Diamond:
And we're going to start with the who. So two-part question. Who were Gage & Tollner? Were they real people?
Sohui Kim:
They were absolutely real people. They were partners in the beginning. Actually, they didn't start out together. It was really Gage. And then Tollner sort of bought in couple of years later. Gage & Tollner, it dates back to 1879, but it doesn't actually date back to 1879 at the place that we're in now, which is 372 Fulton Street. Actually, Gage had another space, I think, few doors down. And when Tollner sort of came on, they got into this building, 372.they were there for a really, really long time. And a great partnership it sounds like, based on all of our historical research. The other big history aspect in terms of ownership is The Deweys. And then they had it for, I think, about 70 years.
Kerry Diamond:
Were Gage & Tollner restaurateurs? Chefs? Who were they?
Sohui Kim:
They were not really. I mean, Fulton Street to Fulton Mall, which didn't exist. It was just Fulton Street. There was a lot of oyster carts. And that's how this business sort of started, as like an oyster cart place where you could just get quick oysters, something to eat. Actually, St. John is sort of the history buff in this whole thing. That they were not necessarily restaurateurs, but there were certainly interested in having a restaurant and getting into hospitality. So, yeah, a great partnership.
Kerry Diamond:
People might not realize back then, New York was practically paved with oyster shells.
Sohui Kim:
That's right. That's right.
Kerry Diamond:
Oysters everywhere.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And who is the who today?
Sohui Kim:
Who is the who today? I guess the story with us starts back about four years ago when St. John Frizell, our dear friend, he has been in the industry along with us, he owns Fort Defiance. He had this little pop-up, I guess you could say, on Thursday's called Sunken Harbor Club. He's been at Fort Defiance for a little while and he said, "It's time for me to do something different, like a second project." We had just opened Insa and we said, "Oh, that sounds like a great idea." And he really wanted to do this Sunken Harbor Club somewhere downtown Brooklyn. And so he said, "Okay, Sohui, will you consult on a menu, like a short, concise, really sort of cool bar menu to go with my drinks?" He has this whole history and philosophy behind Sunken Harbor Club and he really geeks out and I'd love to hear him talk about sort of this history of this make-believe sort of club. So Ben and St. John went out looking for a space.
Kerry Diamond:
And Ben is your husband?
Sohui Kim:
Sorry. Yeah, Ben Schneider, my husband, my partner in crime, we have opened The Good Fork together, Insa. And so, his role was going to be sort of get a tiny little space and renovate and infrastructure, building. I would do the food menu and St. John would do his amazing cocktails. It was a very simple idea. "Okay. Let's just find a place." And St. John wanted a small place, a tucked away place somewhere in downtown Brooklyn because he really, really wanted to be there.
Anyway, they looked at a whole handful of places. The real estate agent was getting a little frustrated because they weren't liking any of the spaces that they saw. So as a last ditch effort, she's like, "I'm going to show you guys something different. It's not what you're asking for." And it was Gage & Tollner. She opens the door, Ben and St. John walk in. Their jaws drop. And they're like, "Oh my God, this place. We remember this place." So that's how it all sort of started to open up a tiny little speakeasy bar with a really cool concept to finding this crazy, historic landmark space that hasn't been operational for 14 years, but dates back to 1879. And as soon as they said, "Okay, this is what we're going to do next." And I said, "Are you guys crazy?"
Kerry Diamond:
So that kind of covers the who and a little bit of the where. The what.
Sohui Kim:
The what. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So how did it go from Sunken Harbor Club to a full blown out historic restaurant?
Sohui Kim:
Right. So many details there, right? Do we abandon Sunken Harbor Club and open up this place and then look for another space? Well, once they looked at the space, they realized that it's pretty much three floors of this historic building, the main floor, which is landmarked, as I said. So there would be enough room to put the sunk and Harbor club upstairs above Gage & Tollner. So then it became this whole new conversation about what? Like, how? It's very key questions: how much? How do we do it? Who does it? We set out to obviously write a business plan as all responsible business people should, but it really was a shared sensibility of what the vision of this place would be.
Kerry Diamond:
Did they have to talk you into this?
Sohui Kim:
They did. Oh, my God.
Kerry Diamond:
Because this was a radically different idea.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yes. I laughed at them. And I've said this over and over again before. It's like sending two little boys for a quarter of milk and I come back dragging up a live mooing cow and you're like, "Are you nuts?" So there was a lot of disbelief. "I can't believe you're thinking that this is what we're going to do" because the original idea was so small and quaint. Well, then St. John hits the library. He starts sending us all kinds of historic archives of menus and who the former owners were, the history of the building, all the important cookie things that had had happened over the years. And you cannot help but to be sucked in to the drama and the history. And so, we just became food history nerds of just... And then I found out Edna Lewis was there.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. That's a big, important part of the history.
Sohui Kim:
It's a big, huge part. Yeah. Especially as it pertains to the menu that we have now. So anyway, yes, there was a lot of like, "You're crazy. I'm not doing this." Because you know why. We have nothing else to do right now we don't have individual other restaurants and families to take care of. It just felt incredibly too much. But then once we broke it down and once we really saw the potential of the place, he just gets smitten with this idea. And then also, Kerry, just being in that space and you've been in there, I think various stages of sort of construction, renovation, to the day, actually a week before we actually opened what we're supposed to open the first time around, you just get so wrapped up. And there is a feeling in there of warmth and history and all these great things. It really became, "Let's do this. We really want to do this and we have to do this." And then of course, the how.
Kerry Diamond:
As you mentioned, it's landmarked. It's interior landmarked.
Sohui Kim:
It is. It is a third interior landmark space of New York City next to Grant's Tomb and the New York Public Library.
Kerry Diamond:
Because it's mostly exterior's that are landmarked, right?
Sohui Kim:
That's right. That's right.
Kerry Diamond:
And not the interior. So you couldn't technically do that much to the main dining room?
Sohui Kim:
We couldn't do that much to the main dining room. It is interior landmarks as well as exterior landmarks.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, it is?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Sohui Kim:
So we still had to deal with the Landmarks Commission in terms of what we could do with the facade, what paint, how do we sort of make it right. But obviously, Ben Schneider, my partner, my husband, he was so excited about this project. Only because he was coming out of a project, Insa, which is our Korean barbecue place in Gowanus. That was sort of a blank slate for him. It was a warehouse space. There was nothing in there. No HVAC. No plumbing. So he was really able to do everything from scratch and really adhere to his own design sensibilities and what we sort of envisioned for that particular space for Insa. But with Gage & Tollner, it was really challenging, right? You can't just make all these decisions on your own unit laterally. You have to work with the commission, work with the architects.
He definitely saw a challenge in renovating or bringing back sort of the glory. And he jumped right in and learned so much and had so much fun. Of course, he didn't do it by himself. He had a group of amazing project managers, architects, and lovely designers, and a lot of charrettes. I remember sitting cold. There was no heat in there. I'm just sitting around and looking around and seeing the Lincrusta and the ceiling and just envisioning what could be. That was the most fun. And it was pretty dilapidated because they had not been a restaurant since 2004. So there was a lot to go over, there's a lot to learn, but it was incredibly fun.
Kerry Diamond:
So when you walk in, the chandelier's you see are original?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
The bar that you see has been there for decades?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah, since about 100 years.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Sohui Kim:
About 100 years. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And when you walk in and you think that Edna Lewis leaned on that bar, it just blows your mind?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah, and had her bourbon and had a cigarette. You could envision all of this.
Kerry Diamond:
You could. It's a magical space in that sense. You do feel like you can see the past in there and you can see ghosts almost swirling around in a good way.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, absolutely. And there are ghosts there. Good ghosts. I believe in the spirit world to a certain extent and you just have to. And I think that is part and parcel of walking into a space that's been there for so long. It's affected so many people's lives. You can't help but to feel these spirits. I'm happy to report that they're all positive and good spirits.
Kerry Diamond:
Good. I'm glad the spirits are happy. We will talk about Edna Lewis before this show is over. So let's talk about the when.
Sohui Kim:
Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
When you took it over, when you were hoping to open and when you actually did open?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. It happened pretty quickly. The project for us dates back about four years ago and that's when we saw the space and started planning. Obviously, the key component of this is finances and money. It took us about two years to raise all the funds. And that got a little hairy. We didn't know how to approach it. And we ended up doing this amazing crowdfunding campaign that raised about a half a million dollars. And then that allowed us to get amazing about 40 investors who were really supportive and believed in the project. So that took a while.
Sohui Kim:
By the time we had everything done, it was 2019. And it was February. If my partners were here, they could double check me on that. But I'm pretty sure that that was a February 2019. Ben and the team and all of us, we sort of boogie to get everything sort of together. We schedule the opening for December of that year, obviously. But all these big projects get pushed back and pushed back. So finally we said, "Okay, March 15th. That's how we're going to do it." And then, you know what happened.
Kerry Diamond:
Everyone knows what happened. March 15th is my birthday so I remember that you're were supposed to open that day.
Sohui Kim:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
And March 13th, Friday the 13th was pretty much the day everything shut down in New York.
Sohui Kim:
Yep. You're right.
Kerry Diamond:
And I thought of you through this whole time. It is so hard to open a restaurant of any size. I knew how long you three had worked on this one. Were you just hoping up until the city shut down or did you know?
Sohui Kim:
No, we knew. That Friday the 13th, we actually opened. That day, in the morning, we all got together; our team, our core team, our general manager, executive chef, all of us. And we said, "This feels weird. I feel like maybe we should just shut it down." And then one of us said, "No, we started calling some reservations, and people, they're like, 'We're coming. We won't shake your hand, but we're coming'." And there was still so much enthusiasm. We opened. And it felt normal for a little while, but obviously I'm sure it wasn't a good idea too, but we had to. But then the next day it got worse and we said, "You know what? There's no way we can't keep fooling ourselves." So we made the decision on that Saturday and didn't have the last day of soft open. And then that's when we decided to send everybody home, cook a ginormous family meal for everybody there, and then send people with food, started pickling things and then threw some stuff in the freezer. Who knew? We thought maybe three weeks and we'll see everybody back here again.
Kerry Diamond:
We thought the same thing. Our office at the time was walking distance from Gage & Tollner. We were so excited to be part of downtown Brooklyn. And we packed up, put everything in the storage facility down in Gowanas and thought we would be back to normal in a few weeks.
Sohui Kim:
That's right. And that really was a belief. And there was like, "Okay, we've run so hard. This is a good break. We'll all just give everybody a little break and just reconnoiter in a few weeks.
Kerry Diamond:
Reconnoiter. You might be the first person to use that word on Radio Cherry Bombe. Well, you and Ben started cooking out of the kitchen at The Good Fork.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I remember walking down and I bought bags of frozen dumplings that I lived on for a very long time.
Sohui Kim:
Yes. Yes, that's right. You've got some kimchi too, didn't you?
Kerry Diamond:
And kimchi.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah, that's right.
Kerry Diamond:
I pretty much in the beginning of the pandemic lived on your dumplings and I would make sushi rice with kimchi and a fried egg on top.
Sohui Kim:
Beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
And then lots of whatever I had sprinkled on top. I just lived on that and was happy but panicked.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. But It's comfort food. It's good.
Kerry Diamond:
It was. It was. But I remember being struck by the idea that so many of us were back to how things were when we started. For me, it felt like the beginning of Cherry Bombe all over again. Seeing you and Ben in The Good Fork, space that Ben had built, that you two had rebuilt, seeing you in the kitchen doing this, I was like, "Wow. It's like, we're all starting over again."
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. There was something really interesting about that, right? You're right. Everybody just sort of went back to their homes and their little places and started... It's like, "Okay, this is a place where we sort of waited out." And that, for us, for Ben and I, was The Good Fork. I sought solace on that because I was so busy with Gage & Tollner's launch that I actually wasn't able to pay a lot of attention to The Good Fork, or even Insa for that matter. So it was really comforting to be there. And of course, people in the restaurant industry idle hands. We go crazy. So I said to Ben, I was like, "Well, there's this fresh inventory. We should just at least just feed people. Whether we're just selling meals to go or doing donation meals for the local charities in the hospitals." So it was really about just being active. And it really was awesome to be active in that tiny little space.
Kerry Diamond:
You've kind of explained why, but this was a huge project.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Why deep in your heart did you want to tackle this?
Sohui Kim:
In the beginning, I talked about just the three of us, the partners, but then as soon as we had our vision down, I knew that we needed the team to be bigger. It's not just the three of us. So Adam Shepard, our executive chef, came on board and he was working with me at Insa at the moment. And then we were looking for other key players. And I think I tapped Caroline's Schiff too two years prior. And she was in between jobs and I was like, "Caroline, this is something that we're working towards. Would you be into working with us on that?" So they were all these people and moving parts were coming together.
It really was for me, the getter, the clincher, was the food. It just felt so exciting of an opportunity to put a menu together, to look over 125 years of menus. Things that they served in that space over the years. And then really, sort of like a culmination I think of my entire culinary professional life, right? Started out working for a lot of great chefs out there and then branching out in 2006 opening The Good Fork with Ben. And then that was a very globe trotting menu, but that was very grounded and technique and classics. And I did Insa. And then it just felt like just full circle to tackle a traditional oyster chop house. But how can we bring this to the 21st century, put our sensibilities onto it? And that challenge was so exciting. Just the way that I found working on the Sunken Harbor Club prior to that, right? Because as soon as St. John and I talked about Sunken Harbor Club, I wrote out some ideas and I started cooking up, researching.
That's what I love to do. And I think ultimately, all the chefs really... The grind of hiring and payroll, all that stuff is the grind. And what I got into this industry is not for the business side of things. It really was because of the passion for food. And it was calling me. It was calling me. I didn't want to listen. I didn't want to answer that call, but late at night I would think about Edna Lewis and I read all of her cookbooks again. Slowly but surely, I really was like, "Okay, we have to do this now." So that was fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Now we'll talk about the how and how you raise the money for what was probably your most expensive project to date.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, by far. By far.
Kerry Diamond:
By far. You chose to do a sort of new form of crowdfunding.
Sohui Kim:
Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
And you chose a platform called Wefunder.
Sohui Kim:
Yep.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you talk about that?
Sohui Kim:
Sure. Wefunder is a platform where you could take a concept or an idea, a business idea, and get small investors. So the idea is that... We tried to get some big fish as they say, but we realized that just within our circle of people and acquaintances and friends, we didn't know too many people who had lots and lots of money. But we knew that we could maybe have 500 people that could kick in a little. Wefunder works sort of like Kickstarter but it's an actual investment. We promise to pay them back. But it's on a lower scale. So it starts at $1,000. And lo and behold, it was true. Our community sort of showed up and we raised close to a half a million dollars.
Kerry Diamond:
From how many investors?
Sohui Kim:
High 400s. A little less than 500. And notes, it sort of works like Kickstarter or some of the other platforms where you could leave little messages, like you could invest $1,000 and say, "Hey, had the most amazing meal at The Good Fork." Or "We got married there" or "Rehearsal." All these memories, you know? And I was like, "I know that person. I know that person. Oh, that's my uncle who gave $2,000." And then there are all these people that we did not know. And that was tied to the legacy of Gage & Tollner.
And then the story started pouring out. "I got married upstairs at Gage & Tollner. My grandfather worked downtown, and that was our Sunday supper place." These memories just flooded out. It just was wonderful to see. It was just really heartwarming and wonderful. That's when we decided that this was a real big sort of public project. That it's obviously not just for the three of us, but really it's about the importance of putting something back that has been missed for so long historically. So then there was a sense of sort of obligation to do it right. So it was very fortifying.
Kerry Diamond:
Does having 400 investors stress you out?
Sohui Kim:
Oh my gosh. Especially when the pandemic hit, there was no question that we needed to do this. And honestly, if this was a smaller project and it was just the three of us and we're sort of invested and scraped together some money from friends and family, which is sort of how Ben and I opened Insa, then I think the pressure would be less, right? But because we opened with so many people's investments, we just felt awful, A, and B, demoralized that the future was so unclear. But I think that once we saw the light at the end of the tunnel, we were, "Yes, this has to be. We have to make it happen and it's going to be better than how we ever envisioned it." So yes, the stress was there. The anxiety was there, but the push was there and a sense of responsibility, big. And to do it proudly, you know what I mean?
But it also felt we were supported. No one said, "Hey, what's happened?" No one was upset obviously. They all understood. It's a pandemic. But also just looking back over the history of Gage & Tollner, it's survived two world wars. Think about it. 125 years. And it's survived the pandemic of 1918. So we found strength in that. St. John made a very eloquent sort of speech to our staff on the last day saying so, so. There was no question that we would just pick up where we left off. It just took longer than we thought.
Kerry Diamond:
When was the grand reopening?
Sohui Kim:
The grand reopening, April of 15th of this year, 2021. So exactly 13 months after.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the menu. I have eaten there a lot. What is on the menu?
Sohui Kim:
The menu is a revamped oyster and chop house for the 21st century. That means that you open up the menu and you are really likely to see a lot of things that are familiar, comforting, and then some little surprises. But the format of it is, we looked up a lot of old... Even the way that the menu is laid out, we looked at a lot of old manual layouts. And so there's a lot of throwback, looking back, and also looking forward. So there is the amazing Edna Lewis made famous, she-crab soup, Oysters Rockefeller, originated in Antoine's restaurant. But all the recipes are ours and mainly Adam Shepard.
Kerry Diamond:
Even Edna's you put a little twist on it?
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. See, no one really knows what she put in her she-crab soup. I mean, basically her she-crab soup is like four items. It's like crab, sherry, cream, butte, and the roe of course. Obviously, Edna Lewis is a superhero., And that she took something very, very simple, all great ingredients and just kept it simple. That was sort of her magic touch. But there's a lot of more technique involved. All of us are sort of fine dining chefs and we have that kind of sensibility and techniques up our sleeves. So not everything is as simple as it appears, but I think that's the beauty of it, is that when you have something simple like she-crab soup, there's 102 million ways to make it. But I think that most people are enjoying our version, but it's important that it's there, right? That it's not some other soup, but that it harks back to and pays homage to Edna Lewis.
Kerry Diamond:
Because you still have people who have eaten at the previous incarnation of Gage & Tollner.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And I read the comments in the New York Times Review and they all have opinions as to what should be on the menu.
Sohui Kim:
So many. Honestly, at a certain point, I was like, "Okay, another person telling me what should be on the menu." So it was really hard. We did a talk at the Brooklyn Historical Society. All these people who have been there, they all came. After the talk, there was a lot of questions about what we're going to have on the menu. And I think that was the most important thing. So I knew that it had to pay respect to a lot of menu items that been there that people remember. So you're playing to the memories. They don't know which recipe Edna Lewis used or exactly... Some people don't even remember, but a lot of people do remember, which is fascinating.
Oh, and the other menu item that was key and I couldn't keep it off the menu is the soft belly broil. And that dates back further than at the Lewis's participation at Gage & Tollner. Crab done 25 different ways but they all have different names, or oysters broiled, creamed and some have celery. I mean, it's just a trip to look at all these old menus. So we had to give it all these knots to different times turn of the century, mid century. Edna Lewis has stayed there. And also paying homage to a lot of the past owners and what they sort of put on the menu in terms to sort of make it their own. But there were just definitely some solid... We had to have a roe bar. Obviously, it was an oyster chop house so you have to have the oysters, the shrimp cocktail, and then the classic salads, right? The Caesar. The wedge.
So they're accessible menu in terms of recognition, but Adam and I really wanted to make sure that it was the best one. If they had she-crab soup 10 times, then we want it to be the best one that they had. Or the best is like, "I had the sheet crap who by Edna Lewis here. And this was better than hers." I've only gotten that once. I think she was lying to me. That was a goal for us. Is that, how could we just make this simple Oysters Rockefeller.
Kerry Diamond:
You also slip in some homage to your own culinary heritage.
Sohui Kim:
Sure. Sure. But I think that that is true of most modern contemporary chefs, like you look at your pantry, you look at your larder. Obviously, kimchi to me is not just... It doesn't even belong to the realm of Korean cooking anymore. It just is in your kitchen. It's in your refrigerator. It's a condiment. You put it on grilled cheese. And why not put a little bit onto the clams casino? That's actually Ben naming that, Kimsino. With every restaurant, he likes to name one dish after using my last name, Kimsino, but also it's kimchi.
Kerry Diamond:
What are some other examples where he did that?
Sohui Kim:
Adam had a great idea of infusing the soft belly broil with miso. And so it's undetectable really. It's not so strong and forward, but it's that certain umami and that it's that certain quality of tastes that, "Wow, this is really flavorful." So we sneak it in when we can. Advertise it when we want.
Kerry Diamond:
I should mention for all the history buffs out there, you can look up the index to the New York Public Library's menu collection.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
They have over 26,000 menus dating back to the 1890s.
Sohui Kim:
That's right.
Kerry Diamond:
So that's what you're referring to when you talk about the research.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yeah. Brooklyn Library. Brooklyn Historical Society. It's all there. It's all there for you to see for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
That must've been such a fun part of this project.
Sohui Kim:
Such a fun part. And also, when Ben was working on the upstairs, he was on the roof and found that there was this little tucked away room between the roof and the third floor. And then out came five boxes. Dusty. And it had all kinds of memorabilia. All kinds. Awards, best restaurant for this, participation in that, special events menu, written letters.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, that's like something you see in a movie.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, totally.
Kerry Diamond:
You find a box with all the treasures in it.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
That does really happen.
Sohui Kim:
It does happen. And then recipes. Mrs. Dewey had a recipe for something and she would write it down. Who knows if they actually serve that or not. It was their lives. You opened a box and you're like... It's a little piece of history right there. This is how they lived.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the New York Times Review because everyone in New York City waits for their New York Times Review when they open a big project.
Sohui Kim:
Sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you nervous?
Sohui Kim:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Did it matter? Because it's a different time right now in terms of reviews. And the New York Times did away with the star system right now.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah, they did. The team, we're not nervous. We don't cater obviously to reviewers. I figure that if a restaurant, restaurateurs, chefs, operators, if you are true to your vision and your goal and you know that that menu is as best as you could do and that service that you provide is the best that you could provide, you've arrived. You know what I mean? So it's not about one person's opinion, really. I mean, I do respect Pete Wells and I do respect his writing. Okay. I was a little nervous when I knew that it was coming out by the time that we open. And I think because we had the practice 14 months prior that we knew that we could get this right.
But of course, every day you'd tweak things. Every day is a different challenge. By the time it got reviewed, we're very, very solid on what we were providing. And we felt very proud of that. And of course, just crossing your fingers and hoping that everybody enjoys it. So whether it's Pete Wells or that wonderful couple that celebrated their anniversary there 50 years ago, one of their earlier anniversaries, we made that the same importance. I think that's how you have to really approach.
Kerry Diamond:
I only bring up the review because it was a beautiful review.
Sohui Kim:
It really was.
Kerry Diamond:
It gave you so much in the food section. And just the headline, I had to look it up again. "A Brooklyn Landmark Holds Its Head High Again."
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I think everybody who was rooting for you and who has followed you from Good Fork version 1, Good Fork version 2, we didn't even talk about how much you and Ben have been through as restaurateurs and small business owners. The Good Fork was destroyed during hurricane Sandy and you had to rebuild. So I think for those of us who are part of that community and knew what had happened the first time round, we were just like, "How could this happen to them again?"
Sohui Kim:
I know.
Kerry Diamond:
"They're such good people and they went through this once already."
Sohui Kim:
But it happened to everybody though, you know?
Kerry Diamond:
This time.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah, this time. And there's resilience, right? They're sort of built-in resilience. I think that whether you go through something as traumatic as Sandy and having sort of seeing your restaurant destroyed and having to rebuild, whether it's that or... I think anybody who operates restaurants, in the truest sense really good restaurants, I think that they know that it's always like two steps forward one step back. So there is something really that is built in like, "Okay, you don't expect a pandemic to just shut you down overnight, but okay. It's just another hurdle that we have to get through." But thank goodness for the wonderful team that we're surrounded by. If it wasn't for them, I don't think we would have made it.
Kerry Diamond:
Even though I'm sure you have a lot more that you will accomplish in your life, when I look back at what you've done, the true line is community. 100%.
Sohui Kim:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for seeing that because it is important for us. In fact, just yesterday, as you know, The Good Fork is no more but we still hold the lease. We've been trying to make sure that the restaurant gets sort of passed on to another operator that will do us proud and do something amazing in that lovely, awesome, handmade built place by us, by Ben. So we threw a party yesterday. And our dear friend, George Motz did his burger sliders and I made dumplings to order, we got our friend Ray to DJ, Miss Mona Ice Cream was there and sort of blasted out via social media, and MailChimp just letting people know that we're having this pop-up party. And so many people showed up.
It really was... Every time we do this, we do this every three months it seems like until we really have to let the space go. But it was so great. Customers and friends and family that we know through not just The Good Fork but of Insa and also Gage. Yesterday I answered so many questions about how Insa's doing and how Gage is doing, and building congratulations from everybody about all the accolades. It's sort of a big, full circle moment for me and Ben yesterday. People care. People care, which is how we survive.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about Edna Lewis a little bit more.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you uncover about Edna that really has stuck with you?
Sohui Kim:
Well, my favorite cookbook is Taste of Country Cooking. To me, that is so much about Edna and who she is, was, not just because that's about her childhood, how she grew up in this small town, how they harvested, how they cooked, how they talk about community, what they did for church events, and what a simple, typical dinner meal looks like. I felt like I sort of knew about Edna Lewis, but I feel like I really didn't. I discovered that she was a chef at some really high profile restaurants in Manhattan. And then when she made the track to Brooklyn downtown to Gage & Tollner, it was really at the invitation of Peter Ashkenazi, who was the then owner. Went to an event where Edna Lewis cook for the event. And he sort of hounded her and said, "You have to come here and be the chef."
Kerry Diamond:
We had his ex wife, Marcy Blum, on who talked all about that.
Sohui Kim:
Yes, she's lovely.
Kerry Diamond:
Marcy's the best.
Sohui Kim:
Yes. And Peter has been very encouraging and very supportive. They came the first week that we reopened and loved it. So there's a lot of support there. But it really was just finding out her trajectory, like how she started, what she did in Manhattan, what she cooked. That she could cook an amazing French meal and do beautiful souffle's. And then the soul food, the Southern cooking that she was a master of, and just her philosophy and the kind of person that she was. She was politically active. Cool lady with a beautiful smile. Have the bourbon every night with a long cigarette. I just feel like she's such a cool lady. She wasn't an UberCHEF. She just was an honest to goodness cook and she loved doing it.
Kerry Diamond:
Her niece told us that she would come out in the dining room, but really did not love coming out in the dining room.
Sohui Kim:
Not at all.
Kerry Diamond:
But people love seeing her.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. I am no Edna Lewis, but sometimes I'm forced to go into the dining room and I hate it. This is a reason why I decided to cook a long time ago, so I could hide out in the kitchen. And so I sort of found that to be true too. Somehow maybe were kindred spirits. This is all just me conjecturing in my mind. I've never had the privilege of meeting her before she passed, but there was a lot of just sensing her vibe in that space.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you talk to her when you're in the kitchen?
Sohui Kim:
Oh, yeah. All the time, especially in the beginning. And then to hear all these stories, I have some friends who actually when they came to New York after college, they worked at Gage & Tollner. They had the privilege of knowing her. She taught them how to bake pies and such. So all these stories that just revel in.
Kerry Diamond:
We have to talk about Caroline Schiff for a second because she's a good friend to Cherry Bombe.
Sohui Kim:
Of course.
Kerry Diamond:
We love her dessert menu and the bread menu there. She has a cookbook coming out very soon. I have to confess, I laughed so hard when I read Pete Wells's description of her Baked Alaska. I thought it was kind of mean.
Sohui Kim:
She was not pleased.
Kerry Diamond:
I'd have to say... Maybe she won't listen to this episode, but he said, "Almost every table seems to get the brown blob, the size of a well-fed house cat."
Sohui Kim:
I remember the thing about the kale slaw where he talks about the kimchi and a couple of applications. He accepted it for the clams kimsino, but he said with the kale slaw that it needed to go through the woodchipper once more. I was like, "Ouch. Hello?"
Kerry Diamond:
But every table literally does order it?
Sohui Kim:
Oh my God. As you should.
Kerry Diamond:
It is a big baked Alaska.
Sohui Kim:
Absolutely. I'm just going to think that maybe he's just not a big baked Alaska fan. I'm not a big sweets, like ice cream meringue type of person, but-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, bring it on.
Sohui Kim:
I know.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah. I have to try and I have to have it, but certainly it is big. It's originally for two. I think she did make it a little smaller. I mean, she definitely... We played around with the size of it. But just the work of making three different handmade ice creams, really interesting flavors, and the combinations all going well together and that crazy Swiss meringue. When you put the torch to it, it's just beautiful color. I think it sort of looks like her hair.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my God. It does. It does.
Sohui Kim:
She's sort of known for this amazing job of just hair that's always gorgeous and-
Kerry Diamond:
Her Anne of Green Gables meets Kate Bush hairdo.
Sohui Kim:
Totally. She's a force man.
Kerry Diamond:
Almost every table seems to end their meal with that. I think it is such a testament to the restaurant because it's just celebratory from start to finish.
Sohui Kim:
Right. And when I asked Caroline to join the team, she was super excited. We talked about direction and we talked about history and we looked at it a lot of dessert menus, dessert items that went out of the kitchens of Gage & Tollner through different areas. But there were few things that I really sort of wanted her to do. And that was one of the main ones. I was like, "I feel very strongly that we need to have a version of baked Alaska." And I think that it's the best baked Alaska I've ever had. She's super talented. A great hard worker. The first cooking job she ever had was at The Good Fork.
Kerry Diamond:
I know. She's always talking about you as a mentor.
Sohui Kim:
That's why we do this, right? For these relationships. And yeah, it's about the space, it's about the how, it's about the food, it's about the business, but at the end of the day, it's really a business of people, right? Not just serving guests and making sure that they have an amazing time for the two, three hour duration or however long for that particular meal, but it really is about, like you said, community for us. It's about these relationships and working with lovely people that we've worked with in the past, and new people that you've always wanted to work with. And so long as everybody's visions align and that we provide a great place to work hopefully, that is a great recipe for success for a BMF project like Gage & Tollner. Every day is a challenge, but when you look around and you're surrounded by such amazing people, you're like, "All right, we're going to get through this."
Kerry Diamond:
Let's do a speed round.
Sohui Kim:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Most treasured cookbook?
Sohui Kim:
Well, I mean, having talked about Edna Lewis, it has to be The Taste of Country Cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite or most used kitchen implement?
Sohui Kim:
That's hard. I mean, my knife. I'm just really stuck on my friend who makes knives. Ruby knives. I love his knives.
Kerry Diamond:
Song that makes you smile?
Sohui Kim:
We belong by Pat Benatar.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh.
Sohui Kim:
Because it is my to go karaoke song.
Kerry Diamond:
Is it?
Sohui Kim:
Yes. I just smile and laugh and know most of the words.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good song. Do music in the kitchen? Pro? Con?
Sohui Kim:
Well, yes. During prep, absolutely. During service, nay.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you play?
Sohui Kim:
Anything. It depends on who you're prepping with, right? Back in the days, I had this great sort of hip hop mix from the '80.s Salt and Pepper. Just all these throwback '80s vibe sounds. That's what I like to hear. And then of course my cooks are like, "Really, we're going to listen to Madonna again?" But I can't help it.
Kerry Diamond:
You say, "Shut up. It's my restaurant."
Sohui Kim:
That's right. Child of the '70s and '80s.
Kerry Diamond:
Dream travel destination?
Sohui Kim:
I want to go to the Maldives.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, why?
Sohui Kim:
I just talked about this with my 12-year old son. He brought it up. I was like, "how did you hear about Maldives?" He didn't know exactly where it was. So we looked at it on the map and I showed it. We looked up some Google images and he said, "Oh my God, that place looks very nice.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that where they have the hotels over the water?
Sohui Kim:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes. Can I come?
Sohui Kim:
Yes, let's all go.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Okay. What is the oldest thing in your fridge at home?
Sohui Kim:
Oh, God, my kimchi. Stinking. I think that particular one is like two years old. I only bring it up for when I want to make that really funky kimchi stew.
Kerry Diamond:
When are you going to bottle that stuff and sell it?
Sohui Kim:
I don't know. I guess that's the next thing. I do think about it a lot.
Kerry Diamond:
Not that you need another project, but I buy other people's kimchi in the supermarket. I'd rather buy yours.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, thank you for that. I think I'm pretty proud of my kimchi game. Yeah, I'll look into that.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You're like, "Let me add that to the list of things people tell me to do all day long." Okay. Last question. If you were to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Sohui Kim:
Oh, my God. I want to say Anthony Bourdain. I'd love to have a chat with him about various things, food fads, his favorite foods. I never met him. Obviously, it was such a devastating loss. I have a lot of questions for him.
Kerry Diamond:
I think we all do.
Sohui Kim:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you for coming to Rock Center and hanging out with us today.
Sohui Kim:
Oh, my God. It's so fun.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't wait to harass Alex again for more reservations.
Sohui Kim:
You keep doing that.
Kerry Diamond:
But you can make a reservation on Resy. I should say that.
Sohui Kim:
Absolutely. It's not impossible.
Kerry Diamond:
Resy notifies the best.
Sohui Kim:
Yes, it is.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Do you take walk-ins?
Sohui Kim:
You know what? Yes, we do. And I said that yesterday. I'm going to tell you. We were just mentioned by the New York Times as 50 best restaurants in this country. Such an honor. And then at the same time, Eater put us on their 38 hot list, essential list. I think people who've never heard of us before, they're discovering that we're there. Normally, I would say yes to walk-in tables, especially at 5:00 when we opened. But I gave that advice to a friend of mine who asked me for a reservation. I said "It totally full up, but if you get there at like 4:50 and be the first person there, I'm just 100% sure that you could get a reservation." And then she got there at 4:50 and sent me a picture, because I was in there at the restaurant at the time. I was running a little late. There was a line out the door.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh. No.
Sohui Kim:
Down the block to Smith Street and around, and I was like, "Wow, the power of publicity." But it's not impossible. I think that just like if you're reviewed by a certain magazine or a newspaper, it takes a little while. You just have to be a little bit patient, but it's not impossible.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, well-deserved, Sohui. Congratulations.
Sohui Kim:
Thank you so much, Kerry. So fun talking to you.
Kerry Diamond:
You, too. Bye.
Sohui Kim:
Bye.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Sohui Kim of Gage & Tollner and Insa for stopping by. You can snag Sohui's cookbooks or visit her Brooklyn restaurants if you are in the New York City Area.
Thank you to Kerrygold and Sir Kensington's for supporting our show. Radio Cherry Bombe is recorded at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Thank you to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios, and to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. Thanks for listening everybody. You are the bombe.