Hallie Meyer Transcript

Hallie Meyer Transcript

Hallie Meyer:
Why are you doing things? Why are you making these flavors? For me, if the answer isn’t because I want to, then I probably shouldn’t be doing it. Anything you do, let it come to you, then it will be new. That’s like a Stephen Sondheim quote that I kinda live by.

Kerry Diamond:
Hey, Bombesquad, you're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Today, we're talking about one of my favorite subjects, ice cream, with one of my favorite people, Hallie Meyer. Hallie loves ice cream so much, she opened an ice cream shop called Caffè Panna in the Gramercy Park area of New York City. It's so beautiful over there. Hallie modeled Caffè Panna after the Italian gelato shop she loves so much.

If you're a gelato fan, you know what that's all about. In just a minute, Hallie will join me to talk ice cream, running a small business, and a lot more. Today's show is presented by Free People. There is a great Free People store in Rockefeller Center right around the corner from where we record our show. If you're not in New York City, here's a way to get in on that Free People vibe. I'd love for you to check out Cherry Bombe and Free People's summer separate club videos on the Free People YouTube channel.

Get plant based recipes, tips and tricks from some of the coolest culinarians around, including Chef Tara Thomas, food stylist, Mariana Velásquez, and plant alchemist, Synmia Rosine. I love her title. And you're going to love their recipes. Visit youtube.com/freepeople for more. Some housekeeping. Are you a longtime Radio Cherry Bombe listener or new to our world? Here's one way to support us. You can subscribe to Cherry Bombe Magazine. Subscribers get two issues per year delivered right to their door.

If you haven't seen Cherry Bombe magazine before, it doesn't look like any other magazine out there. It's thick and gorgeous with beautiful photography, essays, and recipes from the most interesting women in and around the food world. Check out cherrybombe.com for more details. And to those of you who already subscribed, thank you for the support. It means a lot. Now here's my interview with Hallie Meyer of Caffè Panna. Hallie, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.

Hallie Meyer:
Thank you so much.

Kerry Diamond:
I haven't seen you in a while.

Hallie Meyer:
I know. It's great to be here.

Kerry Diamond:
I'm so thrilled to have you on. This is a good time to talk about ice cream. I've eaten so much ice cream in the summer. I just came back from Maine and my little nephew, Luke, who's actually been on the show loves ice cream so much, and I think we took a lot of trips to this place called Goose Rocks.

Hallie Meyer:
Nice.

Kerry Diamond:
Anybody who knows Kennebunkport probably knows Goose Rocks. And I pushed myself to try a few cookie flavors that I normally wouldn't have had like ...

Hallie Meyer:
Cool.

Kerry Diamond:
... Cookie Monster. It was blue, probably not naturally colored blue.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah. I feel like all those places, all those kind of family on places and towns in Maine, they must have the same supplier. I'm not sure who it is, but they all have at least the same flavors. So maybe they're like the Moose Tracks, the Cookie Monster, the black raspberry.

Kerry Diamond:
The black raspberry. Shout out to the black raspberry.

Hallie Meyer:
Those are all really fun flavors.

Kerry Diamond:
Yes. I do have to give a shout out to my friend, Lauren, who has Rococo up in Kennebunkport. And I give her so much credit. She does really exotic flavors. And she is right in the heart of town.

Hallie Meyer:
Cool.

Kerry Diamond:
And she could just do touristy flavors and probably make a lot more money than she does, but she really pushes it. And I love going to check out what she's doing every year.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, that's actually a very interesting topic in terms of, do you do the flavors that you know everyone's going to want? Or do you do the flavors that you know people are going to want to see, but maybe not get, or the ones that only a very small number of your customers will want? So ...

Kerry Diamond:
That is so interesting. You have to tell me what is the flavor that people need to see, but won't necessarily get.

Hallie Meyer:
So I would say, just for a little context, at Caffè Panna, actually, we change the flavors every week. So we have a weekly production cycle where we produce, right now, only three or four days a week. But we rotate those flavors pretty much every day when it comes to scoops. For pints, it's on a more weekly basis. Every week though and every day, we definitely have our classic flavors, which are ... There's six of them. One of them is chocolate sorbet. Chocolate sorbet, definitely the thing that sells the least at Caffè Panna. It's a sorbet, first of all. It's very sophisticated.

Kerry Diamond:
Means dairy free.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly. Super dark. There are people who come to Caffè Panna only for chocolate sorbet. But there are also people who just want to see that there's chocolate sorbet on the menu, and then they get cookies and panna, which is the Oreo flavor. And then when it comes to writing a menu in general, I think this is something chefs think about a lot, but it's definitely interesting when it comes to ice cream because it's very clear like, what are those crowd pleasing flavors? Anything with Oreo. Pretty much anything with peanut butter, anything with Chips Ahoy! And then the fruity stuff, which I love, but just having like fiore di peach next to cookies and panna makes you more pumped about the cookies and panna, something like that.

Kerry Diamond:
That is so funny. Well, we're going to go back and explain to people what ...

Hallie Meyer:
Sure.

Kerry Diamond:
... Caffè Panna is, but you will be proud of me. I was there a few weeks ago and I had the parmesan ice cream.

Hallie Meyer:
Nice. That's right, you wrote to me.

Kerry Diamond:
Put an interesting flavor on the menu and I will order it.

Hallie Meyer:
Love it. Love it. I'm sorry I missed you.

Kerry Diamond:
It was great.

Hallie Meyer:
And that's mild. The cheese flavors are fun. Because, usually, I like to just steep the rind in the cream and not necessarily blend full on cheese into the base because that can get a little bit too much. But that, with a little olive oil and salt, I hope that's what you got.

Kerry Diamond:
It was so good. So good.

Hallie Meyer:
Okay, good, good. Love to hear.

Kerry Diamond:
I'm embarrassed even bring this up. I haven't had it yet, but I would have tried it if I had the opportunity, the Kraft macaroni and cheese ice cream ...

Hallie Meyer:
Oh my gosh, yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
... that Van Leeuwen did and basically broke the internet. Would you try something like that or is that too stunty for you?

Hallie Meyer:
Would I taste it? Yes.

Kerry Diamond:
Would you taste it, yes.

Hallie Meyer:
Didn't have the time to. Maybe I'm not doing my job.

Kerry Diamond:
Or the opportunity. Sold out in a flash.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah. That's right, exactly. We have fun with stuff like that. I feel like it's an interesting question about like, why are you doing things? Why are you making these flavors? For me, if the answer isn't because I want to, then I probably shouldn't be doing it. And when it comes to entrepreneurship, you know this, anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new.

Right. Exactly. But yeah, we have fun with stuff like that. I feel like it's an interesting question about like, why are you doing things? Why are you making these flavors? For me? Like if the answer isn't because I want to, then I probably shouldn't be doing it. you know, when it comes to entrepreneurship, like you know, this, anything, anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new. That's like a Stephen Sondheim quote that I live by, but it's true. Like the ...

Kerry Diamond:
Could you sing that for us?

Hallie Meyer:
No, I'm not going to do that actually. That would be my mom's job. She's a singer. But the menus make sense and brands make sense when the people behind them actually want to be putting their heart into this thing. So even if it's a little bit, maybe at first glance, disjointed to see Oreos and parmesan on the same menu, it makes sense because it like makes sense. My heart ...

Kerry Diamond:
It made sense to me. Let's tell everybody what Caffè Panna is, because it's not your typical scoop shop.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah. So we're about to be two years old, an ice cream shop Italian inspired on Gramercy, in 19th Street. We make everything in-house. Pre pandemic, we were a fancier indoor café ice cream shop. And we would rotate the flavors every single day, producing every single day. But we only had about six months to do that, and then COVID hit and encouraged me to change the model of what we're doing, mostly in terms of how we were serving it and just the flow of customers. So as opposed to coming up to a case, all going at the flavors, holding up a line, tasting ...

Kerry Diamond:
Tasting a million flavors.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly. Now we have a walk up window on the corner of 19th in Irving, and we still do scoops, sundaes, affogatos, affogato sundaes. But we also do a lot of pints now. And that's something we did not do at all pre COVID. And I actually was pretty not excited about pints before COVID. But now, it's the bulk of my revenue. And I've even started doing wholesale, partnering with restaurants or smaller businesses, some like grocers in the area. And so, that's really changed everything. So now you can come Wednesday through Sunday, only five days a week because we can't quite keep up with production for more and grab scoop, sundaes, affogatos, or pints that change weekly.

Kerry Diamond:
And tell us what the panna is in Caffè Panna.

Hallie Meyer:
So panna is the Italian word for cream, just like gelato is the Italian word for ice cream. And there may be some differences that are actually notable and should be written on paper. And really, there might also mostly just be qualitative differences. So panna, this panna that we use at Caffè Panna is actually imported from Italy. So it's about 40% butterfat, which is on the higher side. And we think it just tastes better than any cream you can get here. Actually, I tried a lot of creams, a lot of pannas when I was living in Rome and working there in a kitchen at the American Academy in Rome. This was the brand that I loved the most. And believe it or not, it was actually served at Grom, which is a global gelato chain that actually just closed all their New York branches.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh did they, sad.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, yeah. I love it. I really do. And the panna that they used was from this manufacturer, so had to have it.

Kerry Diamond:
You must have eaten a lot of gelato in Italy.

Hallie Meyer:
A lot, yes. At least once a day.

Kerry Diamond:
I love it. I love it. I'm so jealous.

Hallie Meyer:
Yes. It would usually be a new spot plus Grom.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay, just to ... Before we talk about Italy, because I want to hear all about your adventures, what are some flavors people can find on the menu right now?

Hallie Meyer:
So today is Thursday, which means it's only our second day of the week. So Wednesday is when we're flash with everything. Things sell out quickly because ...

Kerry Diamond:
Well, that's a good tip.

Hallie Meyer:
Absolutely, yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
I'm on a Wednesday.

Hallie Meyer:
So Thursday, today, actually, we did a cereal week. So we have a flavor with Honey Smacks, which is something that I don't think you can really find in many grocery stores.

Kerry Diamond:
I think they were called Sugar Smacks when I was a kid.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, maybe they're called a few different things. So we actually candied those.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. I can't believe I ate things like that for breakfast.

Hallie Meyer:
I know, right?

Kerry Diamond:
I would ...

Hallie Meyer:
And what about Pops? You remember those?

Kerry Diamond:
Pops. The cereal?

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, literally a corn puff coated in sugar.

Kerry Diamond:
I do. But I loved Sugar Smacks and Entenmann's donuts, and then I would have peanut butter and fluff for lunch. And it's a miracle I'm still here.

Hallie Meyer:
It's funny. Because next week, we're doing a flavor called summer camp sandwich and it's going to have that kind of banana cinnamony peanut butter fluff profile. But Honey Smacks this week. So taking something and then running with it as an ice cream. So actually, not just putting Honey Smacks and ice cream, but saying, okay, let's take the Honey Smacks. Let's turn that into the mix-in. So we candied it. And then we added some butter toffee to that so you increase the crunch.

And then for the base, we did actually a sweet corn and honey base, like bringing out different parts of the cereal. And the other one is, of course, we had to do something with Cocoa Krispies and Rice Krispies. So we actually put those two into one flavor. So it's a Cocoa Krispies base with a cocoa marshmallow, and then chocolate coated Rice Krispie treats.

Kerry Diamond:
That's fun.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, that was fun. And then the one that's, of course, selling the best is the Chex Chow, so Chex infused ice cream with muddy buddies, which is peanut butter chocolate coated Chex and peanut butter swirl. And you know that's going to be one.

Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. I would get that. And you're pretty close to Union Square farmers market. Do you go over there for inspiration? Do you buy produce from there?

Hallie Meyer:
I do. I do it probably for ... I would say at this point, three to five flavors a week, and when it comes to strawberry, for example. Last week and this week, we have a flavor called strawberriest. So just buying up a ton of strawberries. Usually going on Friday mornings or Saturday mornings, because that's when we start our preparations for the upcoming week. Cook the strawberries down into nothing. And that's what's in the strawberriest plank this week. And then what's another ... Oh, of course, the stuff that you can only find for one week or two weeks.

That's the kind of stuff I like to put in the sundaes because you can really see it as a garnish. So we did a pistachio rhubarb with some redcurrant garnish and a black currant sorbet a couple weeks ago. Currants are crazy. I don't think they're there even this week now.

Kerry Diamond:
They might have been there the last time I was there. I have a much smaller farmers market in my neighborhood that I go to and we never get things like currants. That's why I like to go into the big one at Union Square.

Hallie Meyer:
It's really remarkable.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, it's incredible. So go to Caffè Panna on a Wednesday and go to the farmers market at Union Square early before the crowds descend.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly. Totally. You can even find some Caffè Panna ice cream in the farmers market, because I produce ice cream for a buffalo farmer there with his milk, and then he sells it. So that's one of the wholesale.

Kerry Diamond:
That's fun.

Hallie Meyer:
I say with quotes because I guess it's not traditionally what you think of as wholesale, but ...

Kerry Diamond:
Got it. How is that ice cream different?

Hallie Meyer:
So it's made with the buffalo labneh in the ice cream base. I guess, I would say the difference is the same as the difference between a fior di latte, mozzarella, and a buffalo mozzarella. You can definitely taste a little tanginess. So it goes really well with fruit swirls. And we did a buffalo stracciatella for them that did well, but yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
And is that the only place you can find those flavors at their ...

Hallie Meyer:
At Riverine Ranch, yup. Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of with the wholesale partnerships, which is something that's been new during COVID. And that's what's fun for me, is doing specific flavors for specific people that you can only get there so that it's not as if like him selling the ice cream is competing with me, is competing with Butterfield market, because everyone has different flavors. And my customers are very flavor driven. So they'll say, "Okay, we got to get the Chex Chow here at 77 Irving Place. We got to get the panna chocolate therapy uptown at Butterfield market. But I mean, it's cool. I think we're having an ice cream moment right now.

Kerry Diamond:
Again, it's always an ice cream moment for me, but it has been exciting to see the just continued explosion in this category.

Hallie Meyer:
Totally.

Kerry Diamond:
I mean, just when you think it's totally saturated, it turns out it's not.

Hallie Meyer:
Totally.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. How did your love of ice cream begin?

Hallie Meyer:
I mean, I've loved ice cream my whole life. I think everyone has. I grew up eating Mr. Softy and my mom taking us for Brown Bonnets when we would drive to Connecticut as families which still, by the way, Carvel Brown Bonnets. That is the ice cream I would choose at any given point in life.

Kerry Diamond:
And Brown Bonnet is the soft serve dipped into the chocolate.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly.

Kerry Diamond:
The kind of magic shell chocolate. I ate that growing up. I don't think we ever called it a brown bonnet.

Hallie Meyer:
You know what, I actually noticed that, that that's not what everyone refers to it as. So I'm not really sure how she got that.

Kerry Diamond:
It sounds a little bit little house on the prairie.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes sense.

Kerry Diamond:
It totally does, yeah.

Hallie Meyer:
Right. So when I got to college, I worked at an ice cream shop, a local ice cream shop with a good friend of mine. So on Saturday nights, instead of going to the club next store to the ice cream shop, we were working at the store. And our friends would come by, super drunk, and it was a blast. And from there, I just started to get really interested in different flavors. And I always knew I wanted to have my own place of some kind. I grew up in a family in the restaurant business. And it was something that just always seemed exciting to me. And so, I had this dream.

And I always said like, oh, it'll be after I do my real job, I'll open an ice cream shop. After I do this harder thing, I'll open the ice cream shop. And so, I started exploring wherever I went through ice cream shops. So whatever different city I was in, had to find every place that they served frozen dairy of some kind, started documenting it on an Instagram, called 2 Girls 2 Cones.

Kerry Diamond:
I remember.

Hallie Meyer:
And I started recording flavors, writing them down, coming up with names with my now fiancé who still comes up with half of the flavor names for Caffè Panna. I'll be like, "Hey, so I need a cherry hazelnut." And he's like, "Okay, cherry queen." So that's great. Then I ended up working in Italy in a savory kitchen there after a few other professional journeys here in the city. And after my shifts, I would go to the local café bar gelaterias for espresso in the morning, affogato in the afternoon, more gelato at night. And I just really got inspired by that concept. And I wanted to bring a little bit of that into whatever Caffè Panna was going to be.

Kerry Diamond:
And affogato, for folks out there who aren't sure what those are, that's ice cream and some espresso, right?

Hallie Meyer:
The best.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Do you have that on your menu?

Hallie Meyer:
We do. There's a great piece in The New York Times this past weekend about affogatos. I'm glad that they're having a moment.

Kerry Diamond:
They're so much fun. I love them for dessert.

Hallie Meyer:
The best food.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I probably shouldn't work with them for dessert after dinner because you've get all that caffeine, but I don't know.

Hallie Meyer:
It's a good afternoon thing.

Kerry Diamond:
I still fall asleep drinking them.

Hallie Meyer:
That's a good tip.

Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. So you're over there, you're eating all this gelato, you're exposed to this café culture over there. Is that when the idea really started to take root?

Hallie Meyer:
I would say when I went there, I already knew, this was in 2017. And I spent four months at the Rome Sustainable Food Project, which is the program at the American Academy in Rome, that for folks who are interested in working in a kitchen for a short period of time getting inspired by Italy, highly recommend looking into that internship. So it's an Alice Waters developed program and the fellows who live at that Academy just get to eat the most amazing food. During that time, I was like, yeah, I'm going to have this gelateria, I'm going to do it.

But I had actually already committed to doing a year of service with AmeriCorps at that time. So I knew that when I finished this stint in Italy, I was returning to the city to do that. So came back and worked at school in the South Bronx, actually, through a program called City Year, and still was nursing the idea all the while to the point where one of my afterschool programs was cooking club. And I would bring my ice cream machine and do ice cream with the kids. And I was making recipes at home still developing all these flavors.

And I said like, let me start selling it, see what happens. So someone that I knew who was also a food entrepreneur, his name is Jason Alicea. He has a company called Empanology in the South Bronx. He was like, "Do you want to do an ice cream and empanada pop up?" And I was like, "Yeah, why not?" Great way to get more involved in the community. I'm up here five days a week for very long days. Why not? So I made ice cream at my parents' kitchen for a full week in order to have enough to sell for four hours at this local café.

And I quickly developed a name for the product, it was Tripla Panna, which means triple cream. And just week over week, people kept returning. And then, I said, let me go back to Italy, really crystallize this concept. So at that point, I decided I'm going to go work at a gelateria, had my flavors, had my recipes, but wanted to just dip my toe back in the place that inspires me the most. And then when that was finished, returned to the city and started looking for spaces.

Kerry Diamond:
You know what I love so much about gelato? I mean, I love a million things about gelato. It is always the perfect scoopable temperature. How do they do that?

Hallie Meyer:
Temperatures are really important differentiator between what we think of as traditional American hard pack ice cream and what we think of as gelato. At the store, we to serve it between zero and eight degrees. I know that's a big range, but it really depends on the flavor. I mean, if you think about the difference between ice cream and gelato, I personally believe that it's a lot more semantic than it is reality. But temperatures definitely one of those more qualitative features. There's not actually numbers that matter here. It's just that gelato is usually served at a warmer temperature.

Kerry Diamond:
You would go to a gelateria, would you try a different flavor every time? Or did you have some favorites that you always ...

Hallie Meyer:
That's a good question.

Kerry Diamond:
... use as a test? If they make a great blank, I know it's a good place.

Hallie Meyer:
I like to think that any gelateria is putting their heart and soul into every flavor. So I don't love that metric. When people come to the store and they're like, "Well, I need to try out your vanilla." I do love vanilla. But usually, I go for a fior di latte, which is just the sweet cream, plus a fruit sorbet, plus panna, because that's just super refreshing. So not those nutty chocolatey flavors.

Kerry Diamond:
Got it.

Hallie Meyer:
But I do love making those.

Kerry Diamond:
I was just thinking the era that you were born into was a different ice cream era than I was born into. We really only had Baskin-Robbins and supermarket ice cream, and then maybe a little family on place and some ice cream trucks. But you were born into the Ben & Jerry's world. Häagen-Dazs had happened. Buying fancy pints in the supermarket back then, it just wasn't a thing.

Hallie Meyer:
Totally.

Kerry Diamond:
And Häagen-Dazs changed that whole game. And then Ben & Jerry's came along few years later with these really extreme flavors and all the things mixed in. And then it was just a whole new ballgame.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah. And I think now, we really are deep into that world of people will spend what it costs to make super premium ice cream. I don't think we're there with every food category. They may not spend what it actually costs to make that.

Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any ice cream heroes growing up or any today?

Hallie Meyer:
That's a great question. I mean, to be honest, I love all ice cream. I really don't ... Maybe this is completely uninteresting, but I don't like to or I don't actually have any bad feelings towards anyone who makes ice cream because, look, it's ice cream. Ben & Jerry's, absolutely. And Häagen-Dazs, absolutely. Love Jeni's. I mean, she started the new wave of artisanal ice cream right after the Ben & Jerry's, Häagen-Dazs thing. But what I stock my freezer with right now is always 100% of the time Häagen-Dazs strawberry, Häagen-Dazs vanilla.

Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting.

Hallie Meyer:
On the Ben & Jerry's side, there's really not much fruit there. So it's the two target exclusive flavors that they offer, which, in my opinion, are their best retail flavors.

Kerry Diamond:
I don't even know this was a thing. Tell me.

Hallie Meyer:
Yes. So they have two target exclusives. One is called peanut butter world. So it's chocolate ice cream, cookie swirl, which is revolutionary and inspiring for me, cookie swirl and peanut butter swirl. And then the other one is Glamp Fire Trail Mix. Also, loaded with stuff, marshmallow, chocolate covered almonds, pretzel swirl.

Kerry Diamond:
I did not know these two things existed.

Hallie Meyer:
They're the best. They're the best Ben & Jerry's, and those are the two best Häagen-Dazs.

Kerry Diamond:
Wow. I do love Häagen-Dazs vanilla. I think that is such a good flavor and it's so fun to mix things into that.

Hallie Meyer:
Totally.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I love so many. I'm a big fan of just Jeni in general. You might remember two years ago when Lauren Goldstein was with us. Lauren, the ice cream queen. I have to give you a shout out.

Hallie Meyer:
Always gets cookies and panna with panna and Oreo brittle, so respect to her.

Kerry Diamond:
So shout out to Lauren. Lauren did this really great survey of just female owned ice cream shops across the country and did all these great interviews with different ice cream shop owners. And time and time again, they mentioned Jeni as the reason they got into the business. Also, love Salt & Straw.

Hallie Meyer:
Yes, of course.

Kerry Diamond:
They just sent me their summer camp collection.

Hallie Meyer:
Nice.

Kerry Diamond:
Which is really fun. I'm dying to try the bug juice sorbet flavor.

Hallie Meyer:
They really pushed the limit and they're definitely an inspiration. They opened the door for me and so many other small ice cream makers. I think, actually, the pandemic also did. People started to just make things out of their homes, and a lot of these small brands have come out of it.

Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Have you been over to Malai in Brooklyn?

Hallie Meyer:
Yes, of course. I love Malai.

Kerry Diamond:
Love Malai. Went there a lot this summer. Pooja is making incredible ice cream flavors.

Hallie Meyer:
It's almost as if we're becoming a little bit more Italian, because we're just thinking of ice cream as a part of our days now, as opposed to ... I feel more traditionally, in America, ice cream is like, special treat. Whereas in Italy, you see the lawyers, the grandmas, the babies, everyone having a quick gelato. Maybe we're going to become that now. I mean, we do see that at Caffè Panna. And I love to see that. I love the range of human being that comes to that corner.

Kerry Diamond:
Now, a lot of ice cream people also talked about the Penn State ice cream school. And I know you were part of that.

Hallie Meyer:
Yes.

Kerry Diamond:
So for all the aspiring ice cream entrepreneurs out there, tell us about that school.

Hallie Meyer:
That was a great experience. So they actually offer two courses, and I took both of them. And I recommend doing both because they're very different. The first one is like a three-day smaller course on shop operations. So paper goods, suppliers, cleaning protocols, et cetera, et cetera. And, look, it's not you're going to go to any class. You shouldn't go to the class, take notes, and then do exactly what your teacher says. You should do what's right for your business. But it's fantastic to have this resource and also to have a community of entrepreneurs to be connected with.

So that was the first one. The second one is the week long ice cream short course, which is the very old one. I forgot how many. I think it might be like 125 years old, something like that. But that one is more on the product itself and the science behind ice cream making, fat, solids, sugar, water. Which definitely helps me every day to have flexibility with our flavors. And then it's also really helpful when it comes to equipment and finding the right ice cream machine.

Your ice cream machine is so, so important, and ours broke down earlier this season, which was really the saddest I've been ever. But the ice cream machine, I can't think of a good analogy right now, but it is almost as important as what you put into it when it comes to the outcome of the final product. So that was invaluable when it came to that ice cream short course. And just getting in touch with other people that were doing the same thing. And it's really, honestly, geared towards big brands. So this is where Hershey's is sending their R&D team and their whatever other big team, this is where Breyers is sending people. So it's those people. And then also folks me who were just about to open a storefront. So that was a really special experience.

Kerry Diamond:
Tell me what the plans are for Caffè Panna coming up, because I know you've got some big plans.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, exciting stuff. So I think there's a theme that I feel I keep talking about with people in this industry, which is the pandemic hurt a lot of people in it, but it also taught us a lot. And for a lot of businesses that are lucky enough to be things that are easily translatable to go, so pizza, burgers, fast casual ice cream. It really taught me that I can change the model of this business, and it won't affect the brand and the feel and the product. In fact, it will maybe help us do more of it in a quicker amount of time. And so, as a result of changing our model through the pandemic, we've never been making and selling more ice cream than we are right now, to the point where we are totally maxed out on production in our current space.

Kerry Diamond:
So you make everything in that space. You don't have a commercial kitchen.

Hallie Meyer:
Downstairs. Nothing. Yes, yeah. And a lot of people are surprised to hear that, because you can't see us making it, which is one thing that I'm going to change. So our kitchen is in the basement. We can't possibly make more than 3000 pints a week right now, which is, it's not a lot when it comes to having all of our partners and serving the neighborhood as well, and the nationwide audience as well. We're going to be closing after September 19th for ... I don't even want to give a timeline because you never know how construction is going to work.

I would love for it to take six weeks. But trust me, we'll be back. And we're going to turn the ground floor into more production space, so you'll be able to see us making ice cream. We're also going to keep our downstairs kitchen. And we're going to hopefully triple the capacity of the business by just renovating our space.

Kerry Diamond:
That'll be fun that you can see the ice cream being made.

Hallie Meyer:
And I think people, they don't necessarily think about what is actually going into making this.

Kerry Diamond:
No.

Hallie Meyer:
So it'll be fun to see how that plays out. I'm really excited.

Kerry Diamond:
And did I see you expanded into pasta a little bit?

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about that.

Hallie Meyer:
Well, I don't know if you can see my necklaces from across the table. I have one ice cream and one ravioli, which is a new addition for my sister. But if there's one thing I love more than ice cream, it's pasta. But I think the two share a lot. First of all, they're part of what I'm so fond of in Italy's culture. And the second thing is that they're both just almost universally known and appreciated and put a smile on people's faces kinds of foods.

And the third is that you can really use them both as blank canvases and just have creativity applied to them once you have certain techniques down. So I decided, again, pandemic, thank you, for making people more open and willing to do things. I decided, let's do some pasta pop ups out of our corner ice cream shop. Now that we have people coming to the store, people are looking for things to do. This was July of 2020. We started doing that. So I would you know have one pasta two sides.

I would put everyone on the schedule for that night and put everyone in positions that they had no idea how to do, and then I would be behind the counter on two hot plates making the pasta. And I did them every three weeks, every four weeks, up until last month. And I said, okay, we're going to end this for the season, finish this renovation. But it was really amazing. I called it Trattoria Panna. Trattoria is the casual pasta centric restaurant concept that you also see on every corner in Rome and throughout Italy. It was a lot of fun. It drew a lot of people. I was shocked that people really wanted that.

Kerry Diamond:
You're shocked that people of New York want pasta.

Hallie Meyer:
I was shocked that they would wait in line for a pasta out of a paper bowl. And I think it has to do with those things that I mentioned. People are ... They just want comforting and flat out delicious food. You can make such an amazing meal with five wonderful imported ingredients.

Kerry Diamond:
What were some of the pastas you were doing?

Hallie Meyer:
Let's see, the most recent one was a pesto genovese, but with stracciatella made with our panna that we also get from Leoni, and some crispy guanciale, which is my favorite addition to all pastas. But we went through all the Roman classics. So we did carbonara, we did amatriciana, we did gricia. And then we did little versions of all those Cacio e Pepe. And then, usually, the sides were very veggie forward. Those were a blast. I would love to have a Trattoria someday out of an actual space that has actual gas and ventilation and everything.

Kerry Diamond:
Not just hot plates.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly. But it's taking the same trajectory as Caffè Panna did, just starting off as pop ups. So that's what's next for us.

Kerry Diamond:
Are you thinking about more locations? Are you actually laying the groundwork right now to have other locations or it's a little early?

Hallie Meyer:
I'm actually not interested in having more locations of Caffè Panna. I never say never though, because hopefully the past year-and-a-half has taught us that. But I'm more interested in growing the brand when it comes to just producing more. I think one retail location is enough for something. And again, with ice cream, you're lucky because you can grow it in so many other ways besides investing in more real estate and investing in more operations. You can cut the whole thing in half and say, instead of front and back of house, I'm just going to grow back of house and do more wholesale and stuff that.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you see the day when Caffè Panna is in grocery stores?

Hallie Meyer:
I also am not so pumped about that. Again, when it comes to anything you do, let it be exciting to you. Right now, the idea of Caffè Panna in Whole Foods, it doesn't feel right. I wanted to feel special whenever you get it. And I think a lot of the fun partnerships that we've been able to do are a result of it feeling special. For example, we're making ice cream for Tiffany & Co. right now. Custom little cups for them that they're doing at their store activations coming up. I don't think they'd be interested in doing that with us if we were everywhere. And I wouldn't be able to also do all these fun, specific custom flavors for people.

Kerry Diamond:
When does the Tiffany flavor come out? That's fun.

Hallie Meyer:
So it's actually just going to be only at their store. They're doing a few summer activations.

Kerry Diamond:
Is it blue?

Hallie Meyer:
Yes, it is. We spent a lot of time getting that. It's actually sweet cream with blue stracciatella. It's white chocolate with a little bit of lemon zest, because we wanted to have a little summer flavor and a mixture of food dyes. Not my expertise at all. So that was a fun challenge.

Kerry Diamond:
Ooh, I need to try to find my hands on that.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, you do.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's also talk about some things that are still a big issue for everybody in the food world right now who has a brick and mortar or some kind of business, tipping. So I had forgotten that you are no tip establishment when I went and got my ice cream. And I was like, "Oh, is there a tip jar?" They said, "No." And I was like, oh, right. This is how Hallie runs her place. A lot of people went the no tip route, but went back to tipping. Tell us where you are on that subject.

Hallie Meyer:
So I think I got lucky because, again, I'm only two years old. And when I opened Caffè Panna, I had a few things that I was really sure about. So I opened as a no tipping establishment, built that into payroll and everything. So at Caffè Panna, we don't take tips, but we do invite folks who really want to tip to give to something called the team fund, which, frankly, is what tips should be, which is really just you want to pay a little more money, great, we'll ring you up for that amount. And then at the end of every few weeks, when I've got a pool big enough, I split it up among everyone's tracks.

Kerry Diamond:
You're allowed to do that legally?

Hallie Meyer:
You can do whatever you want with revenue that's not categorized as a tip.

Kerry Diamond:
Interesting. Because I always wanted to do that when I had my coffee shop, but you're not allowed to pull tips and give them to back of house.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly.

Kerry Diamond:
Because I guess I called them tips.

Hallie Meyer:
Exactly. So we just make it an item that you purchase.

Kerry Diamond:
Got it.

Hallie Meyer:
You do have to, for example, online, select, I want to buy five team funds. And then we take all that money and then we split it up according to different people's regularly scheduled hours. And my team can opt in or opt out. So it allows for the folks who want it or need it most to have the largest cut of it. It's a workaround. It's not ideal. But I think also, when you start the business with this in mind, you can just build in a lot more stuff at the beginning that makes it easier to sustain it. So you have a backend front of house, we do that at Caffè Panna.

Everyone starts at the same rate. And then everyone progresses pretty much with just equal amounts of increased responsibilities, as opposed to a lot of traditional restaurants that have higher wage for they have to try to think about, okay, what's the higher wage for back of house so that we can get even with front of house? Can we get away with paying front of house $2 an hour? Just do away with all that, try to make the business work where you're paying people the right amount.

Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Have you experienced any trouble hiring? There was a point where I was getting a text today from different friends in the industry asking, did I know a pastry chef? Did I know anybody who wanted to take this job or that job?

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
And everywhere there are signs.

Hallie Meyer:
Definitely. It's a tough time. I feel very lucky that the team I have is ... I don't know what it is, but they're very loyal. Look, I'm 28 and I'm the oldest person in the whole situation. So everyone is a student or just younger than me. It's almost got a summer camp vibe to it. I also work with this wonderful two organizations. One is called Drive Change, and one is called Emma's Torch. Both have been supportive to me in terms of hiring people who are coming out of their training programs, which are also paid fellowships for the individuals that go through it.

And then Drive Change, especially, has been really helpful when it comes to support after that. So they offer a program called Hospitality For Social Justice, which is, for me, it was the past few months doing these two-hour training sessions with other operators who are working with them, just helping you think through different scenarios that you deal with as a manager of a small operation that employs a diverse group of people, which is really what all teams are in this industry. Hiring is hard, though. It's definitely the hardest part.

Kerry Diamond:
It's such an interesting moment that we're in right now with the ghost kitchens, the pop ups, the bake sales, the cottage industry. What's your take on that?

Hallie Meyer:
I think my attitude is really just an open one. Never say never. Definitely, where my heart lies is in having a brick and mortar in order to develop a community connection and a brand and a physical place to work for your team. That said, now that I have that with Caffè Panna, I'm definitely more interested in more kitchens that would service that brand as opposed to more brick and mortars of that brand. I think for business owners and entrepreneurs, it's really just going to depend at what stage are you in growth. And also, what is the product?

There's been a sandwich ghost kitchen. And look, maybe that's not going to work if you don't have your brand already. And maybe you're going to end up closing down because you tried to do five ghost kitchens without having a community connection. Maybe the product is so good, that doesn't matter. And people want it so much that you don't even need a brand. But it's very interesting.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, it's very interesting moment in the food world right now. So you've been a business owner now for two years. What has been the biggest takeaway from you?

Hallie Meyer:
Wow. Tricky, tricky question. Well, I think it does come down to the people thing, that it's always going to be in this industry the hardest thing and also the most gratifying thing when it goes right to manage people and to have a team that is working in support of your vision. So on the positive side of that, it fills me with so much gratitude and joy that at this current moment we're sitting here, and I've got a supervisor and three other team members opening the store and operating it.

And it also fills me with the greatest weight when maybe one of them is not happy, something goes wrong on the shift. It's just like it's this crazy thing when you put something out into the world and then you invite other people into being a part of it, but it's also a beautiful thing when they can take it on.

Kerry Diamond:
And what would you say you learned about yourself?

Hallie Meyer:
That's also a really great question. I think what I've learned about myself is that I'm more of a perfectionist than I previously thought. I used to advertise myself as like, I'm 80% solution kind of person. But again, when it's your product and you are attaching so much of your identity to it, so it's something I'm working on a little bit.

Kerry Diamond:
Got it. Let's jump to the speed round.

Hallie Meyer:
Alright.

Kerry Diamond:
Coffee or tea.

Hallie Meyer:
Coffee.

Kerry Diamond:
Or espresso.

Hallie Meyer:
Espresso.

Kerry Diamond:
You start the morning with espresso?

Hallie Meyer:
I do, or cold brew out of my ... I get a Wandering Bear cold brew in my fridge on subscription.

Kerry Diamond:
A treasured cookbook in your collection.

Hallie Meyer:
Ooh, that's a good one too. I would say A Platter of Figs by David Tanis.

Kerry Diamond:
What is the oldest thing in your fridge or freezer? We usually just asked fridge, but you, I'm guessing there's a lot in your freezer.

Hallie Meyer:
Okay, oldest thing in my freezer is a puree of anchovies and butter from a pop up probably four months ago. And I was like, I need to take this home because I'm going to use it. Have not used it. Oldest thing in my fridge, a jar of really spicy pepper mushroom paste called fina'denne. It's like a Chamorro topping which is Guam cuisine. My fiancé's mom is from Guam, so also have not used that. Very spicy.

Kerry Diamond:
Most used kitchen implement.

Hallie Meyer:
Ooh, definitely tongs.

Kerry Diamond:
Definitely tongs, okay. Do you have an at home ice cream maker you like?

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, I think the Whynter, W-H-Y-N-T-E-R, something like that. Those are great because you don't have to freeze the canister.

Kerry Diamond:
You don't have to freeze the canister, okay.

Hallie Meyer:
Yeah, those are great.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you listen to music while you cook?

Hallie Meyer:
I listen to music in the shower, because I can't fit headphones that don't look these giant ones in my ears. And it's almost always Joni Mitchell.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay, footwear in the kitchen. What do you wear?

Hallie Meyer:
Well, now since I broke my pinky toe ...

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's great.

Hallie Meyer:
... always going to wear close toed shoes.

Kerry Diamond:
I'm sorry I brought that up.

Hallie Meyer:
No, but to be honest, barefoot.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, yeah. Poor Hallie has a big boot on her foot and we wish you a speedy healing, Hallie.

Hallie Meyer:
Thank you very much.

Kerry Diamond:
Dream travel destination.

Hallie Meyer:
Oh, Sicily. I am ashamed that I haven't been there and used so much product from there. Pistachios ...

Kerry Diamond:
I just assumed you traveled everywhere in Italy.

Hallie Meyer:
No. I haven't been to Sicily. Because it's kind of out of the way a little bit, but almonds, pistachios, olive oil, all this stuff that literally important and put in the ice cream.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay, last question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?

Hallie Meyer:
That's so good. Honestly, I think it would probably be Ben or Jerry. Because they would have so much to say that ... Look, they're not involved really in the day-to-day right now. But they would have so much to say about the stories from way at the beginning when they were just coming up with the product. And that would be fascinating.

Kerry Diamond:
I feel like you, Ben, and Jerry trapped on a desert island would be a really good reality show.

Hallie Meyer:
That'd be so fun.

Kerry Diamond:
Well, maybe we can make that happen. I would love for them to come to Jubilee one year.

Hallie Meyer:
I think they would.

Kerry Diamond:
If we can get you to interview them. That'd be fun. Alright, anyway, Hallie, thank you so much. Thanks for ...

Hallie Meyer:
Thank you.

Kerry Diamond:
... slipping over to Rock Center with your poor little broken pinky toe ...

Hallie Meyer:
Such a blast.

Kerry Diamond:
... over there. And congrats on all your success.

Hallie Meyer:
Thank you so much.

Kerry Diamond:
Thank you so much to Hallie Meyer, the founder of Caffè Panna for stopping by. If you're in New York City, check out what Halle is up to. Also, a big thank you to V Spehar for filling in for me while I was away. If you didn't catch these interviews with food TV star Sara Moulton, Chef Natalie Cohee of Margaritaville, and Top Chef's Dawn Burrell, give a listen. If you love V like we all do, follow them at ‘Under the Desk News’ on TikTok and Instagram. Thank you to Free People for supporting our show. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe magazine.

Want some more Cherry Bombe in your life? Sign up for our newsletter at cherrybomb.com. Love this episode, you can find Radio Cherry Bombe interviews with other ice cream lovers, including Pooja Bavishi of Malai ice cream wherever you get your podcasts. Radio Cherry Bombe is recorded at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Thank you to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios, and to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. Thanks for listening everybody. You are the bombe.

Harry From When Harry Met Sally:
I'll have what she's having.