Erin French live at cooks & books transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Each week I talk to the most interesting culinary folks around. This is our last episode of 2022, and for today's show we're sharing a special live talk I did with Erin French, founder of The Lost Kitchen in Freedom, Maine and current Cherry Bombe Magazine cover girl. Erin is also the author of The Lost Kitchen cookbook and of the memoir, Finding Freedom, and she's the star of a Magnolia Network show about life at her restaurant.
My talk with Erin took place at Cherry Bombe's Cooks & Books conference this past November at Ace Hotel Brooklyn. Erin is such a warm, talented human, but what sets her apart as you will soon learn is her tenacity and conviction. Stay tuned for our chat.
Some housekeeping. You have a few days left to snag an early-bird ticket to Cherry Bombe's Jubilee conference. It's the largest gathering of women in and around the food and drink space in the U.S. and it's taking place Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at Center415 in Manhattan. 2023s Jubilee will be our 10th in-person Jubilee, which I cannot believe. Join us for great networking, talks from the brightest food talent around and delicious snacks and drinks from your favorite brands and culinary creatives. The last day for early bird tickets is December 31st. The ticket price will increase in the new year, so don't delay. Visit cherrybombe.com to get your ticket.
Now let's check in with today's guest.
I am so excited to see you outside of Maine.
Erin French:
I'm excited to see me outside of Maine.
Kerry Diamond:
I had the pleasure of visiting The Lost Kitchen to do our cover story. You all have the issue in front of you. This was a real labor of love. It's our Heart and Hospitality issue. And we wanted Erin on the cover because I felt like Erin really embodies heart and hospitality so much and we're just so honored to have you on the cover. So thank you for the time that you and your team gave to me and my team. I thought I would start with how season 2022 went. You just wrapped the season at The Lost Kitchen.
Erin French:
We did.
Kerry Diamond:
How was this year?
Erin French:
I'm just so thankful. It was the first season that we had started since COVID, opening our doors to our dining room and ending, and we never missed a meal and I'm just... We made it. We made it. We're still here and we're still having fun nine seasons later. So that I feel is a bit of an accomplishment that we still love our jobs and we're still here and still working.
Kerry Diamond:
And you're still all talking to each other and-
Erin French:
Yeah, we're all still talking to each other. Can you believe it?
Kerry Diamond:
One of the things that really struck me in visiting, I did say I was surprised it was smaller than it looks on the Magnolia Network. And you said to me, “Everyone says that.”
Erin French:
I know it probably has this big look of it's going to be this... People walk in and they go, "Oh." Yeah, it's the size of my kitchen and that's how many people we can stuff into my kitchen. So it's pretty small.
Kerry Diamond:
But it is very grand in spirit as those of you who have seen it. I realized how much I have fallen in love with your story and the story of The Lost Kitchen because as we were driving, I wasn't really paying attention to the GPS and all of a sudden I saw the post office and I hit the brakes. So raise your hand if you know what the significance of the post office is? I hope all of you do. So I was like, "Oh my God, it's the post office." And I was very grateful no one was behind me because I literally did hit the brakes. But if you don't know the significance of the post office, Erin came up with a really unique reservation system for the restaurant and I'll let you tell everyone what the reservation system is all about.
Erin French:
The reason why you either love me or hate me. So we started this reservation system, I started this as a supper club in the middle of my apartment and never imagined it would become this. And when it did, I was like, “What am I going to do? How am I going to keep up with it?” And the phone lines were crushing us and killing us. And we were just a small little place of girls cooking in the middle of nowhere. And it was like, yeah, sure, we could have gone on Resy or we could have done any of those things that everyone else was doing, but it didn't feel like us. And so I was like, “Look, even if we went on and did any of those platforms, we were never going to be able to fill the need.” And I knew I didn't want to grow the restaurant because I knew it was special just the way it was.
So instead of making it bigger and faster, I was like, “How do I slow this down real fast?” And there was one other way besides the phone and the internet and it was like, write a postcard and we'll pull them out of hat because I don't know how else to keep up with it. And it just made it equitable and it made it fair and it also made it... I don't think I could comprehend how special it made it for us to be able to see those bits of people coming in and have those stories and feel like you're connecting with friends before they even walk in the door. And it kept it feeling small and special, which was really probably my biggest goal for the whole reason of it. And it felt a little insane. I was like, “I've either completely killed my business right now or it's going to be okay.”
Kerry Diamond:
And I got to see the bins and bins and bins of postcards.
Erin French:
Don't tell everyone that. They'll never send one in again. Because they'll be like, I'm never going to get in.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I take it back. Skip over that part of the story and the photos and the new issue.
Erin French:
There's a lot of postcards.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, there were a lot of postcards, let's be honest. You've built something beautiful and people want to be part of it. So we won't talk about the number of the postcards, but tell us about some of the postcards because in going through them, I really was struck by how much time and care people had taken on the postcards they send in.
Erin French:
There's a lot of time and care and energy and what's, everything from stories or intimate stories, personal stories, painful stories, celebratory stories. There could be poems, there could be rhymes, there could be jokes. There's everything. And that's what's fun about it because I'm saying if you're having a bad day, go on the stairs and pick a postcard. If you just see all of these pieces of people coming through here, and it's really empowered us to keep going. And I've become a hoarder now because I don't get rid of any of them. I keep them all. And we've just boxed up this past season and it was the biggest box that we've had yet. And I think my husband Michael said, “We have to build an addition now so that we can keep all them because our attic is getting very full.” But I hold onto those, they're little pieces. They come to freedom and they're staying there.
Kerry Diamond:
And weirdly, even picking them up and reading them, I felt a piece of the magic and how special they are. A lot of you might be familiar with Erin's show on the Magnolia Network. Your third season just debuted, I think October 30th. So congratulations.
Erin French:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
On the third season of the show.
Erin French:
We're excited about this one.
Kerry Diamond:
And I don't know if all of you have watched the show, but when I was watching it, I was like, okay, some of this has to be created for television for Erin's version of drama, which is the scallops didn't show up or the scone dough didn't work out. I was like, “There's no way Erin creates the menu from scratch every single time.” And you said, "No, I absolutely do."
Erin French:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How did that come to be?
Erin French:
Probably because I didn't know any better. I didn't really know how to, I didn't go to culinary school, so I was making these things up every day and questioning myself and doubting myself. First few years there were people who could come all the time when they wanted to and I wanted to give them a new menu every night. And so that pushed me to create these new menus every day. And it pushed me as a cook because I didn't have a culinary instructor, I had myself. And so I was pushing myself and I had to keep getting uncomfortable and I had to keep trying new things and failing a lot and picking up the pieces. And so that for me was really part of my culinary education.
Kerry Diamond:
And even Ina [Garten] was shocked that you create the menu from scratch.
Erin French:
She said to me and I was like, I never thought of that. She said, "You're like walking a high wire act every night." And I was like, "Is that why it feels so hard?" I was like, “Oh, okay, that makes sense.” So maybe this is crazy and maybe I should just come up with a menu that I run for months straight. But I would get bored. The ladies would get bored. It's like we're pushing ourselves and we're trying to come up with new things and we don't even have enough ingredients. Sometimes we're working with such small amounts that it's like I can't run the same menu from the one night to the next because it's literally impossible to get enough cuts of beef because it took three cows to pull off that one dinner. And how many cows, in my world, can you get?
Kerry Diamond:
So tell us some of the highlights of the 2022 season. I know that's hard because you had a lot of dinners that you cooked, but were there any that were real standouts where you were just so happy with how it turned out or some dishes
Erin French:
I'm happy with every time we pull off a dinner, I just feel like it's the biggest celebration for us. And then we sleep really deeply on Sunday, wake up and do it all over again the next week. But every week feels like a big deal for us that we pulled it off. And it's challenging and it's emotional and it's mental. And I think for us, one of the biggest accomplishments is spend that every year we work on trying to find balance, which can be so hard in this industry that feels like it does want to chew you up and spit you out many days. And to be able to find that balance, to feel proud at the end of the day that we've accomplished something and every week we've created a new menu. So I'm very proud of it. And it also terrifies me all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
The balance you talk about is the reason why you haven't expanded yet. Who knows, maybe you will one day, won't put you on the spot. But talk about that a little bit. You made a very specific decision and I don't know how many of you work in the hospitality industry, but there is so much pressure to expand, to grow, to be more like Jean Georges than Alice Waters, for example. What made you make that decision to be happy with where you are right now?
Erin French:
Probably a bit of it was just recognizing that I knew... I was shocked. When this started to work, I couldn't believe it. I never imagined. I started this in my apartment and it turned into things and I couldn't believe people were showing up. And I remember the first time someone said to me like, "oh God..." My first restaurant had closed, and they said, "I missed your food. I'm so glad you're back." And I didn't know that I had food, I had a taste, I had a style. And I realized that what I was creating was small and special and if I started to just make it bigger and follow all the rules that you thought were success, which were open as many restaurants as you can, have airport kiosks, have a pan line at Target, that's what you have to do. And I was just like, I just don't think I'm the girl for this industry, so I'm just going to do it my way. And if it doesn't work, I don't know, we'll figure something else out.
So I never looked at it in that way. I followed my gut, I followed my heart, and then sometimes my brain responded and said, okay, this makes sense. And I made the decision to lock it down and say it's not about making it bigger, it's making it the best that it can be and keeping it smaller and not expanding outside of these four walls. This is special and it's special for a reason. And really just respecting that.
Kerry Diamond:
Some of the ways you've chosen to expand have benefited all of us greatly. There's the TV show on the Magnolia Network. What made you say yes to a TV show?
Erin French:
For many years before this came along, there were many shows that kept pounding at our doors and things were coming at us so furiously. And I remembered thinking I was so terrified because I'd actually created the restaurant that was working. And I remember this feeling of thinking you're about to change everything and you've worked so hard to get it just right. Why are you going to mess it up now? So don't let these things come in and change your life completely, make really conscious decisions. And we turned away so many things. And I remember when this show came along and it got pitched to us and I said, "Is this going to be able to tell our true authentic selves? Are we going to be able to tell this story in this way that is honest and real? And is it going to be able to share more of The Lost Kitchen that's outside of the four walls but not changing the four walls?"
And so I answered all those questions and at the end of the day when the network said to us, "We want you to have the power to tell the story you want to tell in the real way you want to tell it." And we said, "Okay, we're going to give this a try." And it was scary at first, but I felt it. I knew that we were on the rails and I knew that this was going to just be another way for us to share The Lost Kitchen without just completely changing everything. It's been the very fine line. It's had to change from the beginning. It started out as a supper club, it turned into a restaurant. I lost that restaurant, it turned into an airstream that I did these suppers out of. It turned into another restaurant. So it has been changing the whole time. It's been about not exploding it, keeping it true and authentic and being able to tell those stories in that way.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you gotten used to the cameras?
Erin French:
We forget they're there. We don't even know they're there anymore. Feels so fortunate for the production team, from Michael, my husband, who's really been truly helpful on helping just digest this all for me and translate it. And being able to have a team that we work with that literally our team now, we feel like we are two teams together. We're telling a story together, we're doing this together.
And I know that I've talked to other people who have these shows and they don't have the same experience. And I think that's what comes across is the true affection that we have for the crew that we're working together. So we're a crew of our crew and then you add in their crew and sometimes you don't even know the difference. We're a team.
Kerry Diamond:
And those are close quarters. I saw the stove and the oven on which Erin makes all that magic happen. And I said, "Where's the real oven?" And you were like, "You're looking at it."
Erin French:
That's it. Yep. I'm very close with the camera guys.
Kerry Diamond:
So in addition to the TV show, you've also written two beautiful books. First came the cookbook, so The Lost Kitchen cookbook. Tell us about that cookbook and what it's all about.
Erin French:
The cookbook that I was shocked at, why is anyone giving me a cookbook? It was a crazy time in my life. I was just rebuilding my restaurant. And I remember I was cooking on the line that night and my mom answered the phone and they said, "You got a deal." And I was like, "What? What's happening?" I was like in the middle of service and pulling the tickets down and getting everything ready. And she's like, "I can't believe it." And I never imagined that that would happen. And so the cookbook was a huge moment for us to, again, be able to share a bit of freedom and a bit of this place I call home and to make those beautiful pages and to share that story. And so that was a really special moment for me.
Kerry Diamond:
And I heard a rumor, there's a new cookbook in the works.
Erin French:
Yes. We just wrapped it. I've passed it in. It's all in. So it should be out next October. Finally, I know right?
Kerry Diamond:
How is it different from the first one?
Erin French:
So this one is more about unlocking that feeling. And I remember I was trying to demystify why has The Lost Kitchen become this thing that people care about so much and what is it that's touching them? Because I knew it's like I wasn't the greatest cook and I didn't think I could give them the greatest meal, so why are they coming? And I realized it's about what we put on the table and how we make people feel when we're around them and how we take them in. So this book is really about giving those tools about how do you make people feel this delicious way and there's food involved, but it's not always food. It's a feeling and empowering you to take that power and bring it into your own home because I did it. If I can do it, believe me, anyone can do it. I started this restaurant on a four burner electric stove in my apartment and I still pinch myself as to like, how is it this reality now? So it's really, anyone can do this. Believe me.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of chefs are self-taught, but you bring that up a lot. Why is that it? Do you wish you had gone to the culinary school? Is it a chip on your shoulder? Is it something you feel you need to apologize for?
Erin French:
It's probably more of something I feel I need to apologize for because I felt for so long that I didn't... It's calling me a doctor and I didn't go to school. You can't call me a chef. I didn't go to school. I didn't do those things. I feel like I'm a pretty good cook, but I don't deserve any stars. I didn't go through that. I'm very passionate about it and I work really hard and pour my heart into it. But I do cook for a living. And it's funny because if I was...
Michael and I were out and I remember this time when we were meeting some strangers and she said, "Oh, and what do you do?" And I said, "I'm a cook." And she went, "Oh." He was like, okay. And then she didn't talk to me anymore after that. But I guess if you say like I'm a chef, they go, "Oh, tell me more about it." And that seems more exciting. But I'm not ashamed of it. I didn't go to school, but I also don't feel like I shouldn't deserve that... That takes a lot of credit, that takes a lot of work and that takes going through all of that. You could still probably be a chef and there's always so much to learn. You could never be the master of it all because there's so much to learn. And that's what's exciting for me about cooking is that you could travel the world and do every technique and still find something new. So we all still got to work on mastering it. That's the fun of it.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. So you also have a memoir, your beautiful Finding Freedom. What made you decide to write a memoir?
Erin French:
I realized after the restaurant started to become popular, and I thought people probably think, oh. I remember when I used to have these moments when I would go home at the end of the night and I would read TripAdvisor, don't do it if you own a restaurant because you won't sleep and then you'll hate yourself and you cry in fetal position all the time. And I don't do it anymore, but I used to, and I remember reading this one TripAdvisor that said, it was like, "Oh, if a Disney princess opened a restaurant, it would be The Lost Kitchen." And I thought, I'm not sure if she's complimenting me or really trashing on me hard. So I realized, I was like, oh my gosh, do people actually think I had it easy? And it was luck and everything fell into place. It didn't. It was the biggest struggle of my life.
But I remember the moment when I finally found myself at the restaurant that I'm now running in my hometown. And I was standing at the stove and I looked out and I could see the waterfall flowing as I'm at the stove. And I was like, oh, this did not just happen overnight. You had to work for this. And it took tears to get here and it took all of us fighting to get here. And it was hard work to find this waterfall and find this place. So I wanted people to know and feel the same feelings that I had gone through and the struggles of saying, you got to just pick it up and you got to keep going. And sometimes you need these hard moments to get you through that actually take you to that better place. I wouldn't have Michael in my life if I hadn't gone through these things. I wouldn't have this restaurant... I'm sorry. It's true.
I wanted to share that story so that people understood. And I felt very alone for so many moments in my life. And I thought that maybe that would give people also a feeling of feeling less alone and feeling more understood because I needed those moments. And so if I could share that a little bit here and there, that maybe it would bring other people to discover their own bliss and follow their own dreams and realize that sometimes it's not about just falling through this perfect straight line or things are supposed to be easy, that sometimes they just have to be hard. And it's how you handle it and what you do with it that actually makes you stronger and better.
Kerry Diamond:
As anyone who's read the book knows, you are a very gifted writer. Did you know you were a good writer? Did you have writerly aspirations?
Erin French:
I had never written anything like that in any way. And I remember when I pitched it to my agent and she thought I was calling her to tell her I wanted another cookbook, and she said, "I don't see it. I don't see a book here." And I felt it burning in me to tell this story and I felt this need. And then I wrote a bunch down, I sent it to her. She's like, "Okay, I see it." So she started to believe in me.
Kerry Diamond:
So your story is not just your story. Your story is your mom's story, your father's story, a lot of other people. How did you go about writing this memoir when there were so many pieces to it that weren't just your own?
Erin French:
That was a very tricky thing to navigate. And I think for me, I was very specific in thinking about how do I tell my story and include other people but not tell their story. I can say how they affected me and how their behaviors affected me, but being very clear to not tell more of their story unless it was given by permission. There were things I spoke with my mom and said, "Read this, what do you think? Are you okay with this?" But to be able to say, only could I tell the story if it was the way that person's behavior affected my life.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. And how was the writing process?
Erin French:
Really hard. Hardest thing I've ever done. And I remember there were moments when I would be writing it and there are beautiful moments and they're really dark moments. And those days when I would have a dark moment and I would tell Michael as he was coming through the door for dinner, I would say I'm in 1992 right now. So if I'm behaving like a total jerk, I just want to warn you where my head has been all day.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned your mom. How's your mom doing?
Erin French:
My mom's living her best life. She just moved in with her boyfriend. She's living in a beachfront little cottage for the winter and she's living her best life, she's having a great time, and it's finally her time to have her time. After all that time of everything she'd been through to be able to have this time to be her. So it's funny because I don't know if anyone else has this, but there's become a role reversal now. Mom was the mom and I was the daughter, and now I'm the mom and she's the daughter. And I have a teenage daughter who's my mom. And I'm like tracking... I track my mom, like, “Where are you? And who are you with? And are you home? And are we having dinner? Where are you?” And it's so good for her, right?
Kerry Diamond:
I want to know how all your farmers are doing. One of the things I really love about your show is how you spotlight all the incredible people from Maine, the growers, the farmers, the fishermen. How are they doing right now?
Erin French:
I think all of our farmers are having a nice sigh of relief because the final harvest is in, and the frost has been hitting in Maine, and everyone's really excited about that. Every year is hard. And we push through it and we get to the end and everyone takes a big deep breath and we say, "Okay, I'll see you in April." So it's hibernating time, which we all look forward to.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you do during hibernating time?
Erin French:
We haven't quite figured that one out. We don't hibernate too much, but work. Even when the restaurants closed, it's constant planning and thinking and prepping and getting ready for the new season and maybe one small trip, but we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, I still have to work on balance, clearly.
Kerry Diamond:
One of the things I just admire so much about you is your tenacity and perseverance, and where does that come from? Because if you read the book, and this isn't a spoiler alert, if you read the book, your tenacity really comes through and it's very admirable.
Erin French:
Have you ever been in a Maine winter?
Kerry Diamond:
No.
Erin French:
I've been through many of them and that might be part of it, but I don't know. I think it's probably a mix of growing up in Maine, dealing with those really stark seasons. And also a mix between my grandmother, who was on my father's side, and my mother on my mom's side, and the two of them together. I look at these women who are just fiercely strong. And you combine that. And so I think I got it from both sides. And I think just growing up where I grew up and being scrappy and just saying, I got nothing else to do and nothing else to lose. So let's just go for it.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's have a round of applause for Erin.
Erin French:
Thank you guys. This was so much fun.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Erin and to everyone who joined us at this year's Cooks & Books. As I mentioned, Erin is on the current cover of Cherry Bombe's Print magazine, which you can find at select bookstores, magazine shops, and culinary specialty stores, including Book Larder in Seattle, Kitchen Arts & Letters in Manhattan, Omnivore Books on Food in San Francisco, and Now Serving in Los Angeles.
Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to Eric Sheppard for the audio production at Cooks & Books, To Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios, and to Jenna Sadhu, Cherry Bombe’s assistant producer. And thanks to you for making another year of Radio Cherry Bombe so special. I am grateful to all of you. Here's to a peaceful new year. And don't forget, you are the Bombe.