Madeline Stuart Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe magazine and each week I talk to the most interesting women and culinary creatives in and around the world of food.
This Friday, the film, “Wonka,” starring Timothée Chalamet opens nationwide. It's a musical about the origin story of Willy Wonka, the fictional candy maker created almost 60 years ago by the brilliant and complicated Roald Dahl who also wrote the classics “Matilda” and “James and the Giant Peach.” Dahl's 1964 book, “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,” was made into a movie by director, Mel Stuart. His young daughter, Madeleine, loved Dahl's book and suggested that her dad turn it into a film. He paid her $50 for the idea and the rest is Hollywood history. That film, 1971's “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory” was a big part of my childhood. It aired once a year on broadcast TV way before we had cable or VCRs or streaming networks. And I loved the weird Wonka, the bratty kids, and the magical factory set. I had heard about Madeleine over the years, and she was high on my list of folks I wanted to interview. But for whatever reason, I didn't reach out to her until the 50th anniversary of her dad's film in 2021. I finally got up the nerve to ask and was thrilled when she said, "Yes." It's one of my favorite Radio Cherry Bombe interviews, and we're re-airing it today in honor of the new “Wonka.” I thought you'd love knowing the backstory of the first “Wonka” film and that it came to be thanks to a young girl who loved books. Madeleine, if you're listening, thank you again. Everybody else, stay tuned for my chat with Madeleine Stuart from 2021.
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Here's my interview with Madeline Stuart. Madeline, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Madeline Stuart:
Kerry, thank you for inviting me to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm a big fan of yours and the magazine you've created. It's absolutely wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, well right back at you. I'm so excited that you could join us. And you know I'm a big fan of the film and grew up watching it, so thank you on behalf of everyone who loves your dad's movie.
Madeline Stuart:
Well, you're most welcome. And you cannot imagine how special it is to me to have generation after generation loving, enjoying and watching this movie long after it was made.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of generation, let's go back to when you were eight. What made you suggest Rahl's book to your dad?
Madeline Stuart:
I was quite a reader, and I remember reading “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,” and it became almost immediately my favorite book. And I said to my father, "I would love for you to make a film out of my favorite book." And he said, "Honey, that's not as easy as it sounds. Just because you love a book doesn't mean it will make a great movie." But he read the book himself and was as enamored of it as I was, and he proposed it to his partner, David Walper. Just by happenstance, Quaker Oats had come to David Walper and wondered if he had any projects that they might be able to tie in to the release of a candy bar that they were considering.
Kerry Diamond:
I remember reading, and I can't remember if it was your dad or the producer, that they felt that they were able to make the movie that they wanted to make because they didn't have as much studio interference because Quaker Oats had paid for the film. Is that true?
Madeline Stuart:
They paid for so much of the film. And they were filming overseas and it was at the time a very small budget. It's somewhat hard to believe, but they made that movie for $1.2 million. But it's not very much in today's film budget world. And so much of it was done, I guess, on a bit of a shoestring and with more love and attention than you would've imagined for a film made in those days with so little and so many special effects.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. $1.2 million, I'm guessing even in 1971, that wasn't a lot of money for making a movie.
Madeline Stuart:
Yes, it was a very small amount given that they were shooting overseas and the budget and the special effects and the chocolate factory and everything that was involved in the making of that film. And they filmed it at Bavaria Studios.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you know why it was filmed in Germany?
Madeline Stuart:
My father wanted to find a place somewhere in Europe that felt timeless and not of any specific place or period but something that could look as appropriate when the film was made 50 years ago. And it doesn't look like America, for certain, but it doesn't necessarily identify as Italy or Germany or Switzerland or England, it just is this old world place that he thought would feel more appropriate to the film and the factory. And they have a wonderful extraordinary studio in Munich, Bavaria Studios, that had the capabilities and the soundstage that was large enough to house the chocolate factory.
Kerry Diamond:
Now, your dad picks up the whole family and moved them over to Germany, right?
Madeline Stuart:
Yes. One of my brothers was just an infant. The brother who's closest in age, we both had to go to school on the American base in Munich because they took us out of school. And we lived there for about six months. That's where my mother discovered down comforters and ended up trying to make a career introducing them to America. It was short lived, but I've slept with a down comforter ever since 1972 or something. I guess 1970 is when we lived there, so it's been quite a long time ago.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you grow up in Beverly Hills?
Madeline Stuart:
I did. I used to be very embarrassed about that, but I'm a Beverly Hills brat through and through. I went to Beverly Hills High School. When I was growing up, it seems hard to believe because people have their own conceptions or misconceptions about this small town, but we rode our bikes and we went to the movies by ourselves. And it was a very, yes, privileged place to grow up, but it was also a very special place. And at that time, there weren't massive amounts of tourists coming into town, and it wasn't the shopping mecca that it has become. There was a grocery store and a hardware store on Rodeo Drive. And you felt very free as a child to ride your bikes up and down the blocks and no one... There were no play dates, no one really knew where you were, you just had to be home by dark. It was a wonderful childhood growing up here, although very unrealistic.
Kerry Diamond:
What was Munich like in comparison?
Madeline Stuart:
Munich was extraordinary. It was quite a culture shock moving there and going to school with kids whose fathers were either in or had been stationed in Vietnam; that was still very much a part of a fact of life there. We lived in a beautiful house on the outskirts of town. There was a trolley, very picturesque fairy tale-like trolley that would take you from the center of Munich out to the suburbs and out to the studios. And every day after school, my brother and I would hop on this trolley by ourselves. It's almost unthinkable. I don't know, 10, he was 8, or I was 12 and he was 10, something like that. And we would get on the trolley by ourselves, we would pull up to the gates of the Bavaria Studios and they would salute us as we walked onto the sets. It was so almost unbelievable now.
Germany was not that many years... In 1970, it was only 25 years after the end of World War II. And I can remember thinking when we had hot chocolate in the lobby of the Bergerhof Hotel, which is a extraordinary hotel in the center of Munich, that a lot of the older people who were also enjoying their hot chocolate on a Sunday afternoon were probably members of the Reichstag or allies to the cause. And I now have a very different take about that, seeing it from an adult's perspective and what that was like at that time.
Kerry Diamond:
Your dad was obviously a lover of history. He made a lot of documentaries.
Madeline Stuart:
That's really where he made his name and his reputation. He was a documentarian first and foremost and worked with William L. Shirer on The rise and fall of the Third Reich and was the first person to gain access to the Nazi film archives in the 1960s. That really was his great love. And history remained his passion throughout his life. But that has nothing to do with “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.”
Kerry Diamond:
An interesting segue, Madeline, can be to talk about Roald Dahl for a minute because Roald Dahl unfortunately, even though so many of us love his children's books, was a very complicated man. He was anti-Semitic, he was racist. I would imagine that was very complicated for your dad to deal with.
Madeline Stuart:
Roald Dahl was extraordinarily brilliant and talented. And as a child, I read every single one of his books. And I know he's also well known for some of his screenplays for James Bond. And he was a friend of Ian Fleming's. He was enormously talented, but he was also an alcoholic. And he was maybe not to his own family and friends, he could be very mean. He was racist, misogynistic, anti-Semitic.
And he and my father did not have a terrific working relationship, primarily because Roald Dahl, he was not willing to make any changes to the film from the book to the screenplay. And while the book is extraordinary and wonderful, you can't always just take a book word for word, line for line and shoot it as a movie. And my father felt that there was not some great moment at the end of the book that would introduce a quandary, an epiphany, a dramatic point at which the entire movie and story hinged so there were other people who worked on the script, notably David Seltzer, who did not take a writing credit for it but who was the one who introduced some of the more subversive elements and certainly the denouement of the film, the final scene he was so much a part of. In fact, the final line was attributed to him.
But Dahl, he wrote me a beautiful inscription in my copy of the book, obviously a first edition. I got it when it came out. And it's very heartfelt. He had just met me. And he says, "To Madeleine, who started the whole thing. With love, Roald Dahl." And it has the date. And it's very, very meaningful to me because not only is this a most extraordinary moment in my life and our family's legacy, but I truly feel that I was responsible for making all this happen.
Kerry Diamond:
You 100% were.
Madeline Stuart:
And I got $50 for it. $50 finder's fee.
Kerry Diamond:
Your dad gave you $50 and an official letter.
Madeline Stuart:
Yeah, I actually had a check. I can't believe I cashed it. I should have saved the check or at least had a copy of it. Lot of candy for me in that 50 bucks. My father wrote me, or he had his secretary type a letter to me on his letterhead that says something like, "Dear Madeleine, it's now official. You can tell all your friends that they're making a movie of “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.” And if you're very, very good, I'll make you children's supervisor of production." There's no such thing, let me assure you. There's no role in the producing of this film that fell to me, but I was delighted. And he signed it with his signature, but it's all typed. It's hilarious.
Kerry Diamond:
You did get to go on set, though. You mentioned you and your brother would take the trolley there. They built the entire factory on set. What was it like as a child walking on set?
Madeline Stuart:
I don't even know how to answer the question because it was truly jaw-dropping. And in fact, that scene when he opens the door and everyone crowds onto that landing and you see the look on their faces of awe and surprise and amazement, those are all real. Those are not actors acting. They had never seen the set. My father made sure they didn't see it until that very moment when the cameras were rolling and they took their first look at what had been created as the chocolate factory. And they were all just gobsmacked. And we, as kids, were like that too. We would run around, we would stand at the side while they would take one take after another. I will not tell you that we drank from the chocolate river like Augustus Gloop. It was a bit watery. There was actual chocolate in there, but-
Kerry Diamond:
No. Really?
Madeline Stuart:
A lot of the snarkiest comments that you'll read online has to do with the texture, the viscosity of the river, that, yeah, it looks a bit watery. But there was a lot of candy.
Kerry Diamond:
I was thinking back to my own childhood when I watched the movie every year when it would be on broadcast television. And you were so fixated on other things as a child. You were very aware that they were badly behaved children and that's why they came to a bad end, but really, the magic just captured you.
Madeline Stuart:
I think even though this is a film for and about children I guess most specifically, my father put in so many things that were meaningful to him that were on a level of understanding that was far beyond that of a child. And there's one scene where he plays the secret code to get into the factory. He plays it on a little... Whatever it is. And the woman, Mike Teavee's, mother smirks and says, "Rachmaninoff." Well, it's actually Mozart. And what kid is going to get that joke? Only an adult who knows something about music is going to recognize that little refrain. It's six notes that indicate that it's Mozart. There's lots of little bits and asides like that that are so much my father.
Kerry Diamond:
And so much poetry in Gene Wilder's lines. That's obviously not something I knew as a child either, but as I read more about the movie over the years, it's amazing all the poetry that was used for his lines.
Madeline Stuart:
Well, there's the great line to me, which is so ultimately meaningful. Wonka says, "We are the music makers. We are the dreamers of dreams." It's a poem by Arthur O'Shaughnessy who was a great Irish poet. And the day that the film wrapped, my father presented me with a locket, a heart-shaped locket that has that inscribed on it. And not only is it meaningful for me because of his gesture and the fact that it was included in the film but because it's so true. And it's true to me every day in the work I do. In any event, that was very much my father.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you still have the locket?
Madeline Stuart:
Oh, I do. I wear it all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
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We didn't talk about your role in the film. You actually have a little role in the movie.
Madeline Stuart:
It's not a little role, it's a pivotal scene. I think the entire film-
Kerry Diamond:
I take it back.
Madeline Stuart:
... comes to a complete stop at this point and then continues after my moment on screen. I was 12 years old when they filmed the movie, and I was not a particularly attractive 12-year-old. We all have our moments. I got my moment on camera. And as the daughter of the director, I received a close-up, which was not warranted by any means. But the teacher in the classroom scene says, "Madeline Durkin, how many Wonka bars did you eat?" And normally it takes me a lot of time to get into character in order to read my line, but I say, "About 100." Yes, thank you, thank you. I hear the applause.
Kerry Diamond:
I think you're being hard on yourself. I thought you looked really cute. You had your little ribbons in your ponytails.
Madeline Stuart:
Yeah, little pigtails.
Kerry Diamond:
You were cute, Madeline.
Madeline Stuart:
Insisted on wearing white, very long ribbons in my hair. I still resent my mother for not yanking those out just before the camera rolled. But sadly, my screen career stalled after that. And that is really the only time I've ever appeared on the big screen, probably to the relief of most of the world. I might be a born ham bone, but I was not born to be an actress.
Kerry Diamond:
But also your dad discouraged you from becoming an actress.
Madeline Stuart:
Yes, he discouraged me. I don't think he had the highest regard for actors. Basically, he threatened me with disinheritance should I have chosen that as a career. My inheritance meant more to me than pursuing an acting career so I took the money.
Kerry Diamond:
Is it true you're not in the credits but your brother is in the credits?
Madeline Stuart:
It is true. It's a tragic oversight. But let's face it, I had one line, pretty short; two words. My brother on the other hand, he was in the opening scene. He's the one who says, "Scrumdiddlyumptious Bar." And then he comes back in what actually is a pivotal moment in the film. The classroom scene erupts in laughter and gaiety after some explosion, and the teacher comes out in the hallway and says, "What's all this ruckus?" And my brother says, "Willy Wonka's opening his factory. He's giving away five golden tickets." And he said it just like that because he was only 10 years old, so that's a pretty good reading. And his screen name was Winkleman, and so in the credits there is a screen credit for Winkleman played by my brother, Peter Stuart. And he still gets residuals. I get bupkis except the fame and glory. He, on the other hand, still gets residuals.
Kerry Diamond:
We alluded a little bit to the dark side of this film. And watching it last night, I was reminded what a dark movie it is, like the tunnel scene. I used to have to close my eyes during the tunnel scene when I was a child. And I watched the whole thing last night. They behead a chicken. I was like, "What? What is this?"
Madeline Stuart:
You are not the first person to tell me that that scene scared the bejesus out of kids or whoever is recounting the tale to me when they were a child that they ducked under their mother's lap or closed their eyes or ran screaming out of the theater or whatever it was. It seems pretty harmless now, but yes, except beheading the chicken is not fun to watch. I guess he just wanted to make it really, really scary. And his friend, Wally Green, was making a movie in Africa at the time, a documentary. It was called The Hellstrom Chronicles. It was all about how bugs are going to take over the world, which is probably-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, there are a lot of bugs in that scene.
Madeline Stuart:
Yeah. And there's a shot of a giant centipede crawling across Wally Green's face, and that was taken from this film, and just things to make it really terrifying. And I think he succeeded. And I think even some adults are a bit squeamish about that tunnel scene.
Kerry Diamond:
But also Gene Wilder, I think for a lot of us who maybe haven't watched the movie as much as adults as we did as kids, he leans into some of the creepy side of Willy Wonka.
Madeline Stuart:
Even in the book, there was that mildly sadistic and subversive. He left you a bit shaking and quaking at the knees. You weren't quite sure whether he was menacing or amusing. And I think that's what my father wanted to portray. And I think that's the role that Wilder inhabited so well and so brilliantly. He could be charming and menacing at the same time, and I think that's what makes Wonka Wonka. And if he was just scary or just sweet of sugar, he wouldn't have been a very interesting character. That would not have been compelling or engaging.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you know why your dad cast him?
Madeline Stuart:
Oh, I do. And in fact, I was just refreshing my memory recently about this because someone had asked me not that long ago, they were doing casting at the Plaza Hotel in New York, and Dahl wanted Spike Mulligan to play Wonka.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I'll confess, I don't know who Spike Mulligan is.
Madeline Stuart:
He was an English actor at the time, a comedian and an actor. And there was also talk of any one of the “Monty Python” players, Eric Idle or John Cleese or any of the “Monty Python” players becoming Wonka. Joel Gray was considered as Wonka, which is, as a brief aside, interesting only because when Wonka had to shut down their stage at the Bavaria Studios, the next film that was coming in to set up was “Cabaret” with Joel Gray in the leading role directed by Bob Fosse.
Anyway, Joel Gray was considered, there were a couple of others. And they had gone through all these auditions and my father hadn't found the Wonka of his dreams. And Gene Wilder comes in, my father has him read one line. He leaves. "Thank you very much." He leaves, and my father goes running down the hallway of the Plaza Hotel and says, "You've got the part, you've got the part." And David Walper was like, "What? What? What? Are you crazy? Are you mad? This is insane. We need to know more." And my father, he knew at that exact moment that he had found his Wonka. And Gene, on the other hand, said, "I will play Wonka if I can do this one thing." And that one thing turned out to be the moment where he is about to greet the children who've come to the factory for their day, and he comes out of the factory and he halts. And he's on a cane. And he hobbles a bit, and then he falls into that incredible somersault and jumps up. That was his condition and playing Wonka. There you have it.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so interesting. Do you know why he wanted to do that?
Madeline Stuart:
I think he wanted to make sure that everything he did had to be greeted with either suspicion or a question or uncertainty. He wanted to keep people slightly unbalanced as the character of Wonka, that you didn't know what to expect. You didn't know when he was serious or not. And so I think that helps establish him in that role.
Kerry Diamond:
This will out me too, Madeline, as a real “Willy Wonka” nerd, but I had bought Gene Wilder's autobiography years ago because I wanted to know more about him playing Willy Wonka and what was going through his mind. And he barely addresses the movie in the book, and it broke my heart. I'm wondering what was his relationship to that role and to the movie years later?
Madeline Stuart:
Well, if it broke your heart, you can only imagine what it did to my father's heart. He was quite devastated that Gene Wilder, for the rest of his career, would go out of his way, not almost, he would go out of his way not to acknowledge his role as Willy Wonka. And when PBS did an American Masters documentary about Gene Wilder and his extraordinary career as a film star, they did not even mention “Willy Wonka,” which is surely odd, and obviously to the surprise of anyone watching that, because I feel, and not in a proprietary way, but I feel that his best-known role was as Wonka. And in fact, when he passed away, the New York Times put his obituary on the front cover. And did they use a picture of him from “Silver Streak” or “Dr. Frankenstein” or “Sherlock Holmes’” smarter brother? No, it was of “Willy Wonka.”
And I wonder about it. He at one point said he never wanted to appear in public as Willy Wonka because he didn't want to disappoint the legions of fans and children who would come to know and love him as Wonka. He didn't want them to see him as someone else or as old or infirmed or aging. And I don't mean to speculate about his logic or psychological or emotional reasoning, but I have a feeling he wanted to be taken seriously as an actor for some of his other great roles, certainly in Mel Brooks' comedies and The Producers and so many others. I wonder if he wanted to break away from the role that he felt had defined him, and perhaps in a way that he didn't want or appreciate.
I don't know what to say about it. I do know that it was very painful for my father and for my family who takes such pride in this film and enjoy every single moment of Gene Wilder on screen. There's not a moment where he doesn't command your attention and love and respect.
Kerry Diamond:
I had never thought about Gene wanting Willy Wonka to remain Willy Wonka to all the fans. And maybe that was why he never talked about it. That never crossed my mind.
Madeline Stuart:
It's the only thing that makes sense to me. And I'm sure there are many actors who were so identified with a single role that they come to resent it or they come to... Not regret it, but I think just want to break free of it. And perhaps that was the case here.
Kerry Diamond:
I do like the side, though, that maybe he just wanted to maintain the mystery of Willy Wonka forever.
Madeline Stuart:
Yeah. That's a far more positive reading. And let's go with that.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Okay. All right, another interesting fact about the movie, when it came out, it was not necessarily well received by the critics and it didn't do well at the box office.
Madeline Stuart:
No, it was not a success at all. And I think it underperformed expectations. And it wasn't until a few years later, and just a few years later when broadcast television started running it on an annual basis. And there were a few such films that were run in prime time. Gone with the Wind was one, the “Wizard of Oz” was one, Sound of Music was one. And it sounds terribly arrogant for me to put this film into that company, that extraordinary company, but they started showing Wonka on, I think it was Thanksgiving in prime time after the football games. And it attracted an audience of, in those days it was millions and millions. Tens of millions of people were watching TV on a late Thanksgiving afternoon, early evening. There were only really three networks. And there was no streaming, there was no HBO, I know hard as it is to believe, so the audience draw for something like that would be 40, 50 million people who are watching TV at a single time. And it was an event, it was an annual event. And it attracted legions of fans, young, old. And those fans had children, and they introduced the film to their children. And those children had children and introduced the film to those children. And it really became a cult sensation. And the audience grew and became more devoted.
And it was the kind of film that you could see over and over and over again and always find something new. I have favorite films like that. I've probably watched “All About Eve” 629 times and “Funny Girl” 462 times. And I think for others, it's Wonka. And they have an affection and an affinity for that film that knows no bounds. And so now, as a result, it's become even more popular 50 years later than it ever was when it came out.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm guessing that was a huge roller coaster ride for your dad to have put so much love and emotion into this movie to have it come out and not be well received, but then years later, it's this enormous cult classic.
Madeline Stuart:
I know. He was disappointed. And in Hollywood, in the film industry, you move on, you go on to your next project, you go on to whatever it is that follows, whether it was your recent success or your recent failure. I know it hurt him because he put so much of himself into that film personally, that character he identified with so greatly.
But as luck would have it, as the years went by, he became more and more associated with Willy Wonka. And it really became his identity at the end of his life. He was still doing documentaries, but he was known as the director of “Willy Wonka” and traveled all over the world talking about it. And people were still clamoring to hear what he had to say. There's something really wonderful and magical and Wonka-like about that ending.
Kerry Diamond:
Why do you think 50 years later it still endures?
Madeline Stuart:
I'm not even sure how to respond except for I'm so touched that it does. I'm so amazed that it does. I'm so astounded by its continued success. I think it's a story of good prevailing over wickedness. It's a story that is timeless and it's a tale that elevates. I'm not saying those kids were evil, but as far as their behavior, it's bad, it's shameful. And Charlie is an authentic, real good person, and that good prevails is something that I think that enlightens and inspires us all. Is that the reason? I don't know. Or just that it's funny and colorful and silly and madcap perhaps, but that's what we need more of in the world today.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so happy it endures. And it had such a big impact on my childhood, so I'm very grateful to you for giving your dad that idea and making this movie a possibility.
Madeline Stuart:
Well, I can't thank you enough and the hundreds and thousands and millions of people who have continued to love and support and believe in this film so many, many, many years later. It's such an honor to my father and of course to me.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Well, speaking of you, I just want to get a little bit in about you because you have a remarkable career as an interior designer.
Madeline Stuart:
Me? More about me? Well, I'd love to. Thanks for asking.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you become an interior designer?
Madeline Stuart:
Well, through a history of false starts and roads taken, not taken, my mother is, was a very well-known designer in her own right and worked for Neil Diamond and Alan Alda and lots of Hollywood folk. And of course I never wanted to become my mother, and so I tried lots of things. None of them really spoke to me or my heart or my calling.
And one day, a friend of mine, a great friend of mine recommended me to a young screenwriter. And he had just written Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. And his career was born. And he was living in an apartment with a futon on the floor and this tacky orange lamp and a pitiful sofa. She said, "I think Madeleine can help you." And I had virtually no experience except growing up with a very tasteful and stylish mom.
And I like to say that I was passed around young Hollywood, like a hash pipe. I went from Ed to this one, that one, this one, that one, all the young Turks of Hollywood who would later become heaof studios and big producers and the like. And my career was born. I feel like I went to trial and error university. I learned the hard way. I don't recommend my path to anyone. But I am a collector of books and of knowledge. And after almost 30 years, I still feel like a bit of a novice, but I've done some extraordinary projects with incredible clients and wonderful craftspeople.
And I finally, after that many years, I decided to write my own book. And I did write it myself; no ghostwriter. And I wrote a book about eight of my projects, which I will plug at this very moment. And it's called “No Place Like Home.” And a brief aside, my mother, when I said, "Mom, I'm going to title the book “No Place Like Home," she said, "The phrase is so familiar, but isn't it there's no place like home?" And I said, "Well, yes, I know the phrase, it's from “The Wizard of Oz,” but I'm just going to say “No Place Like Home." And she said, "Well, I get it, but I don't think anyone else will." It's a story about my mother.
Kerry Diamond:
Thanks, mom.
Madeline Stuart:
Exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
I read a story about kitchens in Hollywood, and everybody wants to hide their refrigerators now. What's that all about?
Madeline Stuart:
Can I tell you? I was so upset about that story that I almost emailed the writer and said, "Wait a second, you didn't ask me because I have a contrary opinion, and I think your thesis is inherently wrong. I don't care what Martyn Lawrence Bullard has to say about it. A kitchen is a kitchen. You're not fooling anyone. If you find a refrigerator in a kitchen, it's not going to be a shock or a surprise any more than if you found a stove or a dishwasher." And I think, sure, sometimes you want to panel a refrigerator if it works better with this style, but most of the time I urge my clients to let the refrigerator be a refrigerator and stop trying to pretend that it's something else. That's the last word on that subject.
Kerry Diamond:
That story was in the New York Times if anyone wants to look it up. Madeline, you are a gem. I have so enjoyed this, and I hope it's just the first of many conversations we get to have.
Madeline Stuart:
Well, I hope so too. And I have so loved chatting with you. And thank you so much, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to our friends at CityVox Studio here in New York. Our producer is Catherine Baker, our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.