Alice Waters Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone, you are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond coming to you from my apartment in Brooklyn. If I sound tired, it's because I am. Our big Jubilee conference was just two days ago, but I am very excited about today's show because my guest is Alice Waters, the activist and icon behind the world-famous Chez Panisse in Berkeley, California and The Edible Schoolyard movement.
Alice is featured in one of the upcoming “Chef's Table: Legends” documentaries on Netflix. It's the 10th anniversary of the “Chef's Table” series, and to celebrate, they're profiling four superstars, Alice, Jamie Oliver, José Andrés, and Thomas Keller. All four episodes drop April 28th. Alice joins me via Zoom from her house in Berkeley to talk about her tireless advocacy for free healthy school lunches for children. She and I also talk about her Netflix doc, her granddaughter, how she and Jeremiah Tower made up after 30 years of not speaking, and a few other timely things. Alice is a force. Do not miss our conversation.
So anyway, our Jubilee conference, like I said was just two days ago. 1,000 attendees and such an amazing day. We had Gloria Steinem, Asma Khan, Eden Grinshpan, the Maher sisters, Paola Velez, Chrissy Tracey. So much talent on stage and then so much great food and drink. I'm still processing everything, but I want to thank everybody who attended and who worked on Jubilee and made it so special. Big thanks to our sponsors who made it possible, Kerrygold, San Pellegrino, Veuve Clicquot, Lundberg Family Farms, Ghirardelli, Chase, Nonino, Dona, Maazah, 21 Seeds, and California Prunes. Go support those brands if you can. They really believe in the Bombesquad and women in this industry. Also, thank you to the 30 small businesses that participated in our Bombesquad booths. We'll be sharing them on Instagram all week long, along with other highlights. Our next Jubilee is taking place this September in, drum roll please, Los Angeles. We can't wait to celebrate our L.A. friends. Check out our website this week for more details.
Today's show is presented by Maazah. I know a lot of you met the Maazah team at Jubilee and got to try their products. Maazah was founded by sisters Yasameen and Sheilla Sajady and they were inspired by the bold, vibrant flavors of their Afghan heritage. Growing up, they drizzled their mom's magic sauces on everything, rice, eggs, tacos, you name it. And now they're on a mission to bring that same fresh, goes-with-anything flavor to your kitchen and mine. Maazah, which means flavor in Farsi, is all about soul-satisfying food. Their sauces are made with simple, wholesome ingredients and are crafted for dipping, spreading, and drizzling on just about anything, whether it's the herby vibrant cilantro chutney, my favorite, the sweet and spicy mango chutney, or the creamy zesty lemon aioli, Maazah instantly transforms any meal. You can find Maazah at every Whole Foods Market nationwide. Way to go, Maazah, and make your next bite unforgettable. Learn more at maazah.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok @MaazahMagic.
Now let's check in with Alice Waters. Alice Waters, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Alice Waters:
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
I am so happy to see you. I know the audience is going to be so happy to hear from you, and congratulations on being a “Chef's Table: Legend.”
Alice Waters:
Well, that's quite a group of people.
Kerry Diamond:
It is quite a group of people. You very much deserve to be in that group of people. I know you don't walk around calling yourself a legend, but I was wondering, can you name a few people who you consider legends?
Alice Waters:
Certainly, Julia Child. I don't think of cooks quite that way. Legendary cooks means that everybody knows about this person. I think there are categories because of what people are cooking or from where they live, that it's hard to use that word when it comes to cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
Anyone who's not a cook, who you think is a legend?
Alice Waters:
Yes. The first person who came to my mind was M. F. K. Fisher, but she was a cook too. But I think of a legend for me is Mario Savio and the Free Speech Movement in Berkeley. He's a legend. And people, their lives are inspired by his words and his actions.
Kerry Diamond:
You came of age in the early '60s during the Free Speech Movement in Berkeley and also, the Civil Rights protests, the Vietnam War protests. Friends of yours were arrested back then. You and I were talking just right before we started about how it feels very much like we're in a crisis right now. Times are very complicated. I was wondering if there are any lessons from those days back in the '60s that you learned that we can apply today?
Alice Waters:
Absolutely. That if we all got together, we can make big change. That was about the war in Vietnam, it was about free speech. We made some gains in civil rights, but it was a time of a kind of awakening for this country. Yes, World War II was shocking, but we didn't really address what we had learned during that time or what we wanted our world to be about. And I think that's why Vietnam was so upsetting to all of us.
It was also about love. I hesitate to use that word because yes, there was a lot of free love going on in that time too, but there was a sense that you cared about other people and all sorts of other people. It felt like a lack of discrimination. I know that that is something I think about all the time. I mean, when I walk outside and I see people on the street, I say hello, sometimes they say hello back.
But I think it's important that we extend ourselves in that way. I'm so glad that I have a restaurant that has always been about that, because we were trying to help people understand what our menu was about, and we had to try really hard and it worked. It worked. And I go to the restaurant now and we were at the 45th birthday at the cafe the other night. I'll tell you, it made me cry because people came and they said, "Thank you for being open during the pandemic. Thank you for being open now. We see so many friends." That is what it's about. We can't be divided. We have to be together in that belief.
Kerry Diamond:
I know you've always been so big-hearted and about community and about others, but probably more so now than ever because you are a grandmother.
Alice Waters:
Yes. Everybody told me I was going to fall in love with my grandchild, and of course it happened immediately. And she is the one who gives me hope because her father and her mother take care of her equally. I've not seen until the last 10 years in this country that young men are caring about children.
That's so meaningful because if they can really identify with children and the issues of taking care of a child when you have a job, and what it means to be cooking for the family and really sharing all the responsibilities, it means we're going to have a different world.
Kerry Diamond:
Watching the documentary, I saw that she calls you Nonna. How has being a nonna changed you?
Alice Waters:
She knows that I couldn't be a grandmother in this culture because I didn't want to be disrespected. I didn't want to be just assumed that I would do this or do that. I loved the idea of the Italian grandmother who has her grandchildren over for lunch on Sundays.
Now, I've been to Italy where children who are in their teens have to excuse themselves to go to lunch with their Nonna, and I just thought that's my aspiration, when a child really wants to be with me as much as I would like to be with him or with her.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. Today's show is presented by Bixby Chocolate. Bixby Chocolate is bringing a little piece of Maine's history to your taste buds with their brand-new tinned chocolate sardine. No don't worry, there's no fish involved. This is not chocolate plus sardines. These are exquisitely molded milk and vegan dark chocolate fish packaged in a real tin can as a playful nod to Maine's storied sardine past. At one time, Maine's coastline was home to over 400 sardine canneries, and now Bixby is paying tribute in the sweetest way possible. Whether you're looking for a whimsical gift, a unique conversation starter, or just a fun way to satisfy your sweet tooth, these tins of rich, ethically sourced chocolate have you covered? And if you don't know Bixby Chocolate yet, well you should. They're a woman-owned family-run business right in Rockland, Maine, crafting award-winning, sustainably made non-GMO and organic chocolate. Ready to indulge? Visit bixbychocolate.com to grab your own tinned chocolate sardine and taste a little bit of Maine's history one bite at a time. I love Bixby's products by the way. You know I spend a lot of time in Maine and discovered them up there. Bixby also has amazing chocolate-covered caramels, just saying.
The Bixby Chocolate founders are official Cherry Bombe members. If you'd like to be an official Bombesquad member, visit cherrybombe.com for all the details and perks, like discounts on Jubilee tickets and invites to our monthly member meetings. The Bombesquad is an amazing community and we would love for you to be part of it.
Did you know that The Cherry Bombe Podcast network has the number one baking podcast in the U.S.? We do, and it's called She's My Cherry Pie. Each Saturday, baker, cookbook author, and recipe developer Jessie Sheehan talks to the sweetest bakers and pastry chefs around and takes a deep dive into their signature bakes. If you've been wanting to level up your baking skills, this show is for you. Tune in for expert tips and tricks from guests like Claudia Fleming, Natasha Pickowicz, Zoë François, Christina Tosi, and so many more. Find She's My Cherry Pie on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
And how is your daughter Fanny? You know we're big fans of Fanny's here at Cherry Bombe.
Alice Waters:
Yeah. I'm delighted about that. But she has the help of her husband, and he is so engaged with both Fanny and the baby, but he's also a very good cook and loves to shop and garden and all of the above.
Kerry Diamond:
It was so nice to see your granddaughter and Fanny in the documentary.
Alice Waters:
That was just a lucky little moment in the backyard, but it's what I used to do with Fanny, is take her out there and teach her the names of all the flowers and the fruits and the vegetables. And she always had to take her lunch to school different from everyone else's.
It taught me so much. The Montessori teacher that I am, I deeply believe that our senses are pathways into our minds, and that it has been this sensorial deprivation in this country because of the internets and televisions. And we're on screens, we're not smelling, we're not tasting, we're not touching, we're not seeing the beauty of the outside world. We're not learning in that way.
It was a revelation to me, to be educated back in the '60s at an international Montessori school in London. Of course, it was nice to be in London in 1968, but I know that children need to be doing this, experiencing this. And it's the reason I started The Edible Schoolyard Project 30 years ago.
The principal called me up and he said, "I have this piece of land. I know you've liked gardens. Maybe you could come over." But for me, it just validated completely the understanding of the education of the senses. And that meant that we had a kitchen and garden classroom, not for learning, cooking and gardening per se, but for learning the academic subjects.
So when you were in a geography class in the kitchen and you were studying the Middle East, you would be making pita bread and hummus and you would be tasting it and talking about the geography of that country and what grows where, and actually eating it and smelling it. And believe you me, when you have your test about the geography of the Middle East, you will be able to be very successful because it all comes back to you.
And I had known now, and I don't know whether you've seen this map, but we have a network of the schools around the world that have made an Edible Schoolyard, and there are 7,500 schools.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's remarkable. I know you folks can't see this map, but it is remarkable. Maybe we can share it online. Where can people see that map, Alice?
Alice Waters:
They can see it on our website for sure, for The Edible Schoolyard. But the map again confirms that learning in this way is the best way. And food, you're using all your senses when you cook, when you eat together. And so that is why school lunch for me is the place, and I think probably the only place that we could make dramatic change in the world.
And the mayor of Paris decided about a year ago that they were going to buy only organic regenerative food within 200 miles of Paris.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's Anne Hidalgo? That's amazing.
Alice Waters:
Yes. And in one year, they're two-thirds of the way to doing it. And that's just a leader who knows how important this is for climate, for health, and for the farmers and the ranchers, to be purchasing food directly without a middleman means they get the money. And that's what Chez Panisse did, and it's what I'm absolutely certain it is what has made Chez Panisse successful, is only eating what's in season.
When it's over, it's over. Unless we can it or if we preserve it in some way, it's over and then we wait till the next year.
Kerry Diamond:
Alice, going back to school lunches, what grade would you give America if you had to give us somewhere from an A to an F on the school lunch situation?
Alice Waters:
It's pretty close to an F.
Kerry Diamond:
Yikes.
Alice Waters:
We don't buy food locally. We're buying it from big distributors. It's certainly not organic regenerative, it's not supporting our farmers. It's supporting big ag. And it's not a case where kids are grabbing things, but democracy happens at the table when you have to pass the food, ask a friend to share. I mean, you talk about that.
And I know from my experience of The Edible Schoolyard, when they grow it and they cook it, they all eat it. If they only grow it or only cook it, they all eat it. So I know that that investment is great, but I also know when they're served food in a way that is accessible and apples may be cut in pieces, or where it's something the kids are going to like those beans with garlic.
I've written a cookbook that's coming out in the fall. It's called School Lunch Revolution, and I'll hope I'll be traveling around the country. But it's all food that fits into the USDA reimbursement, that little low cost, but it's about really finding the food that kids love, that are ethnic dishes, that have been proven to be affordable and nutritious.
It's again, it feels very seasonal because I just know that before World War II, my parents and everybody's parents put things up for the winter, canned apples in the fall and had that. Wasn't so good when they canned asparagus.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to go back to Edible Schoolyard and the school lunches. I mean, you have been so on message for decades. Very simple message, you want free healthy school lunch for all children. Why has it been so difficult to make that happen in this country?
Alice Waters:
Because in order to make that happen, you may have a governor or a mayor of a city that wants it to happen, but it really is dependent on the superintendent of schools and the principal of the school, and of course money. That we are going to have to really teach people how to cook that way and to understand how to buy food.
And those intermediaries, like Cisco, are separating the farmer from the school. But there was a great story that we had a big event in D.C. called Climate Food Hope, and we did a long table of 200 farmers and teachers. As Truman said, they're our most valuable citizens, and I love that, that they would all be at the table and they all had school lunch.
But what was fascinating to me was one young woman who was an orange grower in California, and she said she loved growing oranges, but she couldn't sell all of her oranges at the farmer's markets and she didn't want them to go to supermarkets, so she went to a local school and she gave some to the principal and he tasted them and he called her back. "We'll buy all of your oranges all the time."
But that to me is what happened at Chez Panisse. When I tasted Mas Masumoto's peaches, I want all the ones we can have in September and October. And it was that commitment of buying it at the real cost so that the farmer didn't have to give a discount to a Cisco to deliver it. We can figure out how to do this successfully. We always did in the past.
And I know I'm very interested in the University of California making a commitment and teaching us across the country and around the world how to do this. But I also found at the event in D.C. that there are people in every state. There's Seed Savers in Iowa, there are Farm to School in New Hampshire that have been there for 30 years. There's Eliot Coleman growing food in the greenhouse for schools all winter long.
I mean, we know how to do this. We just have to share that knowledge. And I think it could not only bring us together in the best way as a country, but it could really support the diversity of different states. And that's how we put the cookbook together, knowing the dishes that were loved in New Orleans at The Edible Schoolyard Project. They were one of the original ones.
It's having cooks all around the country who've always inspired us, and their food from Georgia is so valuable because it's about beans and about rice and things that can be cooked with us all winter long if you're up in Maine.
Kerry Diamond:
What's it going to take, Alice? I know you're a nonviolent person, but how are you going to shake sense into the people you haven't managed to convert yet?
Alice Waters:
Feed them this idea. And I did that at Chez. I did that at The Edible Schoolyard. I've been doing it just at home and talking about it. It's really not a fancy idea, but whenever I go any place right now, we still have some Kishu mandarins, and I bring them with me and I put them on the table and I said, "Taste this."
It's all that it takes and they want to listen, but it's about understanding affordable and nutritious, deeply. I am always thinking that that comes with seasonality and it comes with sharing food together, learning from other people. That's what the Surgeon General is doing right now, has written a cookbook because he feels that cooking is the way to bring people together. And he thinks that loneliness is our most serious health issue.
And I think meaningless work is our most serious health and the psychological problem. And so actually, cooking or farming is incredibly meaningful work when you're feeding children in schools or feeding them in the kitchen. I mean, there's nothing better.
I remember the Victory Garden days of my parents because they didn't have much money, but they had that garden and they grew a lot and their neighbors did, and then they traded things with their neighbors. And it was so great because as a kid, I ate the best strawberries and tomatoes in New Jersey.
Kerry Diamond:
This is back when you were a Jersey girl. A lot of people don't know you were a Jersey girl, but when they watch the documentary, they will. I'm so happy, Alice to hear that you're going to go on tour when the book comes out this fall.
Alice Waters:
Oh, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
How are your energy levels? You seem tireless.
Alice Waters:
Well, you know what lifts my spirits, is being with a lot of like-minded people. It's like a reunion in a way. Even though I don't know them, we're all interested in this thing. And we're going to do an event at U.C. Berkeley for farmers and teachers in October, and I hope students all come and are part of it.
But I've always been doing an edible education course with... Michael Pollan started it at journalism school and Will Rosenzweig is now doing it at the business school. And so a lot of people have taken these courses, and anybody can see the films from those courses. But amazing people came and spoke.
I mean, José Andrés to just say one, but many, many people over the years. And I think that they could provide the materials for courses and universities around the country. But we need to, as I said, gather and taste and support, really the farmers and the teachers who really, I know, absolutely they're my most valuable citizens. And I would include artists with the teachers because I'm so engaged with film, to see films about farm workers. It's almost like being on the strike that happened in California.
The grape strike changed this country. It changed forever my relationship to buying grapes. I even now, even if I sort of know that it's the right person at the farmer's market, I have to ask just because I'm so moved by that peaceful demonstration. And Dolores Huerta almost had her birthday and she's getting right up there.
Kerry Diamond:
If you could send a message to our current president, what would you tell him?
Alice Waters:
The first word that came to mind was “resign.”
Kerry Diamond:
What's the second word?
Alice Waters:
The second word that came to mind was “education.” It's invaluable, and to take money from public schools is really a crime. I just feel that we're at a moment of awakening. I don't know what is going to happen, but I feel like our gatherings, our sharing of an understanding of democracy, going back to the beginning of democracy, going back to Ben Franklin, understanding what it meant, we've lost all of that education around this country.
I mean, we had people like Edna Lewis. She was one of my teachers. We used to have an event in New York and I hope it can be brought back again. I think it can, at the Rockefeller Center. And we had it every year to raise money for Meals on Wheels, and it's where all the chefs came from around the country, and they became friends.
There were 25 chefs, and we all set up these little booths down at Rockefeller Center and we met people and sold the food and gave it to Meals on Wheels.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so interesting because we're at Rockefeller Center right now.
Alice Waters:
Oh, wow.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, that's where our studio is. Is that how you met Edna Lewis?
Alice Waters:
Everybody.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Alice Waters:
Edna Lewis was there making her tarts one at a time with Scott Peacock. Everybody brought a little something. She had Scott and herself, and they made each one that they sold, and they were the best thing that I put in my mouth.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's amazing.
Alice Waters:
And that's how I became friends with them forever. But it was all of those people in their early days, from Jonathan Waxman and all of them in New York. Paul Prudhomme from New Orleans.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I need to find some photos of that event and I need to talk to the Rock Center folks about bringing it back.
Alice Waters:
Oh, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
We have to talk about this documentary that you're in.
Alice Waters:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you watch it or is it too cringy for you to watch stuff about yourself?
Alice Waters:
It's pretty cringy, but I did watch it. It was a little hard to begin looking at myself and making a salad in my kitchen, but I really appreciated the whole scope of Chez Panisse that was revealed and the fact that they went out to the farm and they talked with the other cooks in the restaurant about what it was like to cook in that way and a single menu.
I think in the end, it really says something important about how we all work together. We do. It is a main chef, but it's not somebody who is making all the decisions. I think now a sort of a regenerative kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's a great term.
Alice Waters:
Isn't that? Because it means that every little bug in the soil contributes to the health of the plant and pulling the carbon down into the ground where it belongs. So I think there's something to everybody's event, including the dishwasher, saying, "They didn't eat that and I tasted it and I thought it was great." You know? You really want that information.
Kerry Diamond:
I do feel like the collaboration and the community aspect of what you stand for came through 100%.
Alice Waters:
Oh, good. Oh, great.
Kerry Diamond:
There wasn't too much drama in the documentary. It wasn't like the Martha Stewart documentary. Did you watch that one?
Alice Waters:
I haven't watched too many.
Kerry Diamond:
You'll have to put that on your list of things to stream. But it was so interesting. It was so interesting learning about the early days of Chez Panisse and the whole reason you wanted that restaurant. I also had no idea that the restaurant was in debt early on and that you hit some hard times. It didn't go into depth into what you did to turn things around, but I'm curious because you know we have so many restaurateurs who listen to the show, so many people in the food world, so many entrepreneurs. What did you do to turn things around?
Alice Waters:
We did a couple of things. One, ultimately was to build the cafe upstairs. We knew that our friends needed to be able to afford to come. That was why we were doing it in the first place. And so they couldn't afford a fixed price menu, especially as we got gradually more expensive. That really helped.
It was still unbelievable. There were two people that I sat next to on the porch last week. They just said they wanted me to know that they have been sitting at that same seat for 40 years every Wednesday.
Kerry Diamond:
That's remarkable. I mean, how old is the restaurant now? 53 years old?
Alice Waters:
53, Chez Panisse, but the cafe just celebrated its 45th birthday.
Kerry Diamond:
Right. I mean, both remarkable. Some restaurants don't last ... I think the majority of new ones barely last a year. Five years is major. 10 years is epic. What is the secret to 53 years, 45 years?
Alice Waters:
Oh, I think it's constantly tasting and looking for that beautiful taste. And it's also that collaboration, both in the dining room and kitchen. I want people to feel like they're at home. That's the reason that we have an open kitchen downstairs and upstairs. Kids can come and make pizza with the pizza guy. I want people to feel like they can talk to the people that are cooking.
And I think one other thing that's really helped is we do internships with people around the world. And so they can come for six weeks or three months or whatever it is and just be part of the team in the kitchen or upstairs in the cafe.
Kerry Diamond:
That must be a remarkable exchange of-
Alice Waters:
Well, it has been. And I'm just, I mean, people like Sally Clarke who has a restaurant in London, you know when she came, I mean, she just learned so much. And her son is now wanting to be a cook. I mean, it's so contagious when you have an opportunity to really be in someone else's kitchen.
I went to Gramercy Tavern just recently. I was overwhelmed. I went in the kitchen and they all put their arms around me, the dishwashers, the bussers, and I just felt the love of food there, working in that particular restaurant, which has always learned their experience of Chez Panisse. It just felt so good.
Kerry Diamond:
Alice, I want to go back to, you said you've always wanted it to feel like you're eating at home when you eat at Chez Panisse or you eat at the cafe. You have a funny story about when Julia Child ate at the restaurant and she said it tasted like she was eating in someone's home, but it wasn't necessarily a compliment.
Alice Waters:
But it was always a compliment from my side. And ultimately, she kind of took me on as a young friend and I learned so much from her. And I had a moment right before she died in Cambridge on the East Coast when my daughter was going to school, and we went over to her house and we had that chicken in the kitchen. And I just felt like I wanted to be able to give people in the same spirit that she gave to all of us.
She never held back, ever. There were no secrets about what she was doing. And she had a curiosity about food to the end. I can't say enough about her foundation and the experience that I have had to share. It was a love-in for all of us.
Kerry Diamond:
So Chez Panisse has survived so much over the years. I mean, so have you. We talked about the financial issues. You had fires. They don't even cover the fires in the documentary. I do cover a little bit butting heads with one of your early chefs, Jeremiah Tower. They didn't get into too much of that. Anthony Bourdain, who kind of was critical of you in the media. Did you two ever patch things up?
Alice Waters:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You did?
Alice Waters:
I mean, and patch things up with Jeremiah at the Ohio Food and Wine Festival that I was just there. We found ourselves in the same room about to be interviewed by Ruth Reichl. And there were buckets of Veuve Clicquot Champagne, and we opened one and we drank some and we fell into each other's arms.
Kerry Diamond:
Had you two not spoken for a while?
Alice Waters:
Not for 30 years.
Kerry Diamond:
What? Oh my gosh, Alice, that's remarkable.
Alice Waters:
It was so moving for both of us. And Ruth interviewed us both about the early days of the restaurant and everything, and it felt so good for everybody. It had felt like I know that I can always forgive people if they want to be forgiven. And I think we both wanted that to happen. We talked about eating together in Venice.
Kerry Diamond:
I had no idea you two hadn't spoken for that long.
Alice Waters:
A long time.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Alice Waters:
Because I mean, he moved to Mexico and he's been, not around. But I mean, there couldn't have been a more appropriate moment. It just made me know that it's very important to forgive.
Kerry Diamond:
You were going to say about Anthony. Did you two ever talk?
Alice Waters:
Well, we did. I didn't take seriously all that he said about Chez. I believed so much in what they were doing and I always said, "If somebody wanted all vegetables, they could have them or if somebody wanted something that wasn't on the menu, let's try and find it." And so it didn't bother me.
And when José Andrés at the Julia Child Awards, he introduced me and he said he remembers the early days. And a little tiny dish came to the table for dessert and it had two dates, nothing else on the plate. And he said, "What? I can't believe this." And then he said, "I tasted it." Said it was the best thing he ever put in his mouth. He said it was just sublime. And that's not what I want to have happen.
Kerry Diamond:
I did always think you and Anthony had more in common than you had different-
Alice Waters:
Oh.
Kerry Diamond:
... a lot of it was just bluster.
Alice Waters:
Yes, it was bluster.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. I, similarly at your restaurant, it was the first time I was there, and clementines and dates were on the dessert menu. And I have a big sweet tooth and I was like, "Clementines and dates? I'm not having that." I'd never had a good date in my life. I mean, good dates with people, yes, but not like the actual fruit.
You know, I grew up in New York City. I just had never, for whatever reason been exposed to it, bad on my part. But someone sent the dish out to me and it rocked my world. I had never had a clementine that tasted like that. I had never had a date that tasted like that.
Alice Waters:
I think it might've been that Kishu mandarin, which is a little small one with citrus without seeds, and it feels just like children could eat a dozen at a time.
Kerry Diamond:
And the date was a Barhi date, which tastes like, a lot of you will remember this, but those square Kraft caramels that are wrapped in plastic that I grew up eating. They taste like Mother Nature's version of a Kraft caramel. And now Alice, every time I'm at a farmer's market out in California, I look for Barhi dates and I'm completely addicted.
You've really changed my world with that one dish, I have to say. I mean, it just opened my eyes in so many ways, and that was before I even got into the food world. I mean, it really-
Alice Waters:
That's what happened to me in Paris. I'd had fraise de bois. I said, "What is this?" And they said, "You have to go up in the woods, in the pine forest, and people forage for the fraise de bois at this one little moment of the year." And I couldn't believe it. There's no planting of fraise de bois. You have to forage for it, but it was so special.
Kerry Diamond:
Those are those beautiful little springtime strawberries.
Alice Waters:
Tiny, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
One of the best things you'll ever eat in your whole life.
Alice Waters:
Yes, I agree.
Kerry Diamond:
And sadly, you can't get them here in America.
Alice Waters:
But you can get wild strawberries up in the mountains of Colorado that are akin to fraise de bois. Again, they're only forage for sure in the fall and you have to really search for them, but there's something that's wild up there.
Kerry Diamond:
That's good to know. You know, Alice, so interesting, they touch on this in the documentary and I think in the parts with Bourdain, but you have gotten the rap for being elitist and out of touch and wanting a utopia.
I have never understood why someone who just wants healthy free lunch for school kids could be labeled as out of touch. I mean, with all the things going on right now, wanting to put people on Mars, everything with AI, and I do use AI and I have a healthy respect for it, but just billionaires and their yachts. That, to me, is out of touch.
Somebody who has, for decades just wanted free healthy school lunch for kids, I mean, what is wrong with us that we consider someone like that, you, out of touch? I was so happy the documentary addressed that.
Alice Waters:
Our culture is out of touch and using Montessori language, we are sensorially deprived. So when I say, "Touch it and smell it and taste it," people just think, "What? It's much easier to just get it on the internet. Why don't I have it delivered? Why do I have to go to the market and talk to a farmer?"
I just don't know what I would do during the pandemic if I couldn't look out at my redwood tree while I'm talking to you. Once you fall in love with nature, it's pretty hard to let it go. You have it your whole life, which is why I want this to be in schools, in kindergarten all the way through.
It's like at UC Berkeley, they could take a math class and do it outside. They don't need to be in the classroom to do that. But when you're learning it in context or calculating how many trees are there, it's a memory. It's a memory that's happening through the eyes, the ears, the sounds, the aromas. It's a way that you deeply remember. And even though I don't remember anybody's names, I remember what people look like. I remember what they sound like. I do know who they are. So I'm glad I started calling everybody dear at the restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
That helps. Well Alice, I just want to say thank you for not giving up hope. I mean, so many of us look to you still for inspiration and just, I don't know, just a few breadcrumbs on how we're going to just carry on and move past these times. So I appreciate you being as optimistic and hopeful as you still are.
Alice Waters:
Just again, I see nature out there. I mean, if you want to get hooked, go to the beach and walk along the beach, or go out into the woods, or go to the highest hill and watch the sunset, which is what I'm doing now.
Kerry Diamond:
We're going to do a quick speed round before we let you go because I think in all the years we've had you on the podcast, I don't know that we've ever done a speed round with you. What beverage do you start your day with?
Alice Waters:
Pu’erh tea, P-U-E-R-H.
Kerry Diamond:
I heard you're a big fan of that and it helped reduce your cholesterol or something, right?
Alice Waters:
Hugely. I changed two things in my life 15 years ago. I only eat whole grains and I only drink Pu’erh tea.
Kerry Diamond:
So what does that mean? Do you have oatmeal for breakfast?
Alice Waters:
It means that I can have an egg and a salad and a tortilla or I can have organic granola. I'm trying to eat what's good for my mind and take a walk.
Kerry Diamond:
Alice, what's always in your fridge?
Alice Waters:
Always in my fridge? That's a good question. Well, I was going to say a bottle of Domaine Tariquet Rosé, which is always sitting there, but I'm not drinking it as quickly as I used to. But always in there is farm eggs and always salad, always salad.
Kerry Diamond:
You're a salad girlie always.
Alice Waters:
Because I make a salad and it changes all through the year as to what that salad looks like. Sometimes a little organic tortillas.
Kerry Diamond:
Yum. All right. What was your favorite food as a child?
Alice Waters:
Well, it was tomatoes and applesauce. My mom wasn't a really good cook. She was a health food person listening to Carlton Fredericks on the radio. So she wanted us to have whole wheat bread, not that Wonder bread. I traded my sandwiches or I begged for what my friends had at school, but we ate out at the garden a lot. And I have to say, really my love of tomatoes and blueberries, strawberries is from that time.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Alice, do you know what Tomato Girl Summer is?
Alice Waters:
No, I don't think so. Tomato Girl Summer? That's when it's so hot-
Kerry Diamond:
You were the original Tomato Girl Summer. It's a thing that happened on basically Instagram and TikTok. It was just girls celebrating tomato season. But you will be so happy because they're celebrating tomatoes, actually in season.
Alice Waters:
Well, are they celebrating organic regenerative tomatoes? And I think we have to ask that question about organic. No question about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. We'll make sure to spread-
Alice Waters:
Ask that question, no question.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll make sure to spread that message during the next Tomato Girl Summer.
Alice Waters:
I hope so, really because there's a big taste difference. But to think that you're addressing climate at the same time, it's so beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a favorite food smell?
Alice Waters:
Whatever is in season. I'm still eating ... I'm eyeing my last Kishu over there, but I'm also eating pears still. And again, my pleasure is biodiversity. So I have little pears, I have big sort of red ones. I have brown, yellow ones and I'm just picking among those. And they have subtle taste and textural differences, but biodiversity is what wakes me up.
When I had asparagus the other day at Chez Panisse, I just said, "Where did this come from?" Of course it came from our farm, but it was skinny little asparagus, like I haven't had in years and it was totally ripe, but it's because of the rain. And I just, like Tracy, I've been eating it breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that first asparagus of the spring though, that is a special moment. I've been to your house. I know you don't own a microwave, but I don't know if you have a TV set. Do you watch TV?
Alice Waters:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
You don't? So you're not streaming anything?
Alice Waters:
Except the only thing I watch is TCM, Turner Classic Movies, and my TV is locked in a cabin. When I want to see it, it's on TCM already, and I watch TCM.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so you're streaming TCM? Good to know. All right. What's your favorite food film?
Alice Waters:
My food films are my farming films.
Kerry Diamond:
You've been friends over the years with so many great filmmakers, Francis Ford Coppola, Werner Herzog, but you're more of a documentary fan?
Alice Waters:
No. No, I'm not. But my best friend was Tom Luddy who started the Telluride Film Festival. And I go there every year and have gone for 50 years. And it's the way that I've learned about the world because his filmmakers were from India, from Africa, from China, from South America. And I got to meet them when they came and showed their films at the archives at U.C., and then Tom would bring them to dinner.
So one of my favorite memories of all time was when we hadn't quite opened the cafe, and Kurosawa came in his white linen suit and he stood at the railing, and in the room were Francis Ford Coppola and George Lucas and Tom and all these filmmakers. And we made dinner for them because of Kurosawa. But that became a way that I fell in love, not with just the people, the food, Indian food. I wanted to know Indian cooks. That's why I met Niloufer Ichaporia and she makes Parsi New Year at Chez Panisse.
Every year, we just had it. She was there in the kitchen teaching the next generation how to cook Parsi New Year.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. You've met so many amazing people over the years, Alice, and led such a remarkable life.
Alice Waters:
The greatest gift, not just of the restaurant because I meet people there, but because of film, and knowing Tom Luddy, and all the filmmakers that have really given me a vision for how we can all live together. I used to go to the Berlin Film Festival. I can't say enough.
Kerry Diamond:
That's remarkable. You made me think of Madhur Jaffrey who won an acting award at that film festival.
Alice Waters:
I know she did. Madhur Jaffrey has been somebody I've admired my whole life, and maybe I can see her when I'm back in New York this time. I know she understands something about getting older, and that is having work that you love and doing it with younger people and keeping herself always engaged. And I learned that from her. I learned that from Jane Fonda. I've learned it from Julia, from people who really loved what they did, love what they do.
Kerry Diamond:
We have one last question for you. You're going to find it silly, but if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be, and why?
Alice Waters:
So funny, the first person who came to my mind was Jacques Pépin.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that.
Alice Waters:
I don't know why. I guess because I've known him for so long and every time I've watched his film or it's on, he makes it new for me somehow. He may be doing the same recipe on a desert island. Maybe that's why you need somebody who can make it new every day.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. And I think that would be ... I know you don't watch reality television, but I think that should be a reality TV show and we can all be fighting to get on the island with you and Jacques. Can you talk to the Netflix people because I know you have a good connection there now?
Alice Waters:
I will.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you for your time today.
Alice Waters:
Well, thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you, Alice. You're the bombe. That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Anyone you want to hear on an upcoming episode? Let me know. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer at Newsstand Studios. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.