Annie Shi transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine, and each week I talk to the most interesting women and culinary creatives in and around the world of food.
Today's guest is Annie Shi of King and Jupiter restaurants right here in New York City. Annie is a front-of-house pro, a wine expert, and a mom to be. Annie is expecting her first child. Also, Annie is on the cover of the recent Cherry Bombe Magazine, along with her business partners, Clare de Boer and Jess Shadbolt. As a young woman, Annie was working in finance but fascinated by the restaurant world. She met Clare and Jess in London, and the three decided to head to New York City and open a restaurant. What they lacked in experience and resources they made up for in enthusiasm. The rest is history. I adore Annie, and I am so happy to welcome her to Radio Cherry Bombe for the very first time. So stay tuned.
Cherry Bombe has some fun events coming up. We'll be at Bird Bakery in Dallas on Tuesday, June 20th to celebrate our baking podcast, She's My Cherry Pie. Join host Jessie Sheehan and some of the city's best bakers. Then Team Cherry Bombe will be in Atlanta for our Future Of Food Is You event with the host of that podcast, Abena Anim-Somuah. That event is taking place at Star Provisions on Wednesday, June 28th. Tickets are on sale for both events at cherrybombe.com. If you are in Dallas or Atlanta, we'd love to see you. Or maybe you have a friend in those cities, let them know, we would love to see them too.
Speaking of Abena, congratulations to Abena for winning the James Beard Rising Star Award at the Media Awards in Chicago this past weekend. The team and I are so proud of you, Abena. If you haven't listened to her podcast, The Future Of Food Is You, which is part of the Cherry Bombe Podcast Network, you need to check it out. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Now, let's check in with today's guest.
Annie Shi, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I would love to start with where you grew up.
Annie Shi:
I'm actually born and bred New York, originally, from Rego Park, Queens. I grew up there until I was 13, and then moved to the Upper East Side. So a rare sighting of a native New Yorker, but my family is still here between Queens and the Upper East Side.
Kerry Diamond:
And your parents moved here from China?
Annie Shi:
Yes, they immigrated here in the late '80s. My dad is from Shanghai and my mom is further north, from Dalian. And they actually met in Shenyang, which is a city on the coast that's kind of equally distant from the two, in the People's Liberation Army. They were both drafted into the drama troop of the PLA and that is where they met.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. What is the drama troop? Is it what it sounds like?
Annie Shi:
It is what it sounds like. It's a theater troop that is for the Army's entertainment. So they did a lot of Communist plays and kind of standup and a lot of actually dubbing and voiceovers during that time.
Kerry Diamond:
Are they inherently theatrical people or is this something they were pushed toward?
Annie Shi:
They were pushed towards it. It was the same time as when they were trying to get city kids down to the countryside for a reeducation. So this is their way of escaping that a little bit. I would not say my parents are naturally theatrical. I think it's weird to think of parents being anything other than parents, and that's definitely true of mine.
Kerry Diamond:
Now food was a huge part of your family?
Annie Shi:
Yes. Growing up, even though my mom worked a full job, she always cooked a full Chinese meal at home, which is, it's elaborate. It's never a one pot wonder. It's always like a soup and then a green and then a stirred fry meat dish and rice and something else. And-
Kerry Diamond:
It wasn't a Melissa Clark one sheet pan dinner situation?
Annie Shi:
No. Although, I'm sure she wished she knew about those back in the day. So she always cooked. My grandmother came over from Shanghai to live with us after I was born. So if my mom was too busy, my grandmother would cook. We always had dinner at home around the dinner table, not out of nostalgia or because that was a nice thing to do, but because that was the thrifty thing to do in the '90s.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what a full Chinese meal would've been back then.
Annie Shi:
You always have rice. That's a non-negotiable. My first bite of solid food was rice, which I'm learning now is probably not the best thing. It's like a choking hazard, apparently, but it was some rice. And you have cold dishes to start and that can be anything from smashed cucumber or a little bit of a pickle dish, like something cold. You always have stirred fry vegetables of some kind. There will be meat present in some way. Back then it was almost always a stir-fry, because you can stretch meat a little bit more when you're combining it with other things like tofu or other vegetables. And you always have a soup. Those are the components of an everyday meal at home.
Kerry Diamond:
How in the world did your mom have the time to do that and have a full-time job?
Annie Shi:
I don't know. Now that I'm in a similar position, and I think maybe a lot of women find... You're like, "How did my mom do that?" And I think it's like she worked very, very hard and slept very, very little. But I truly don't know, because I can barely manage to cook for myself, and we don't even have a kid yet. So...
Kerry Diamond:
Now your sister at the time was your cultural attache, in a sense?
Annie Shi:
Yes. My sister, who was 11 years older than me, was definitely the one who led the way. So she was born in China and I was born in the States. I was like the American baby. And she was a little bit of an intermediary for me. So she bought me my first pair of Juicy Couture sweatpants back when they were a thing, because I transferred to an all-girls school called Brearley, and it was very foreign.
She was the one who showed me how to use a fork and knife before the first day of school, so I wouldn't stick out. I remember when she wanted to make sure I was making friends with the right kind of girls, she took me to Serendipity and invited my friends to give them a look over. And I remember the frozen hot chocolate. Do you remember that?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. You have to explain what Serendipity is, because that was a whole thing back then.
Annie Shi:
It really... It was like, I guess, the early 2000s, so we went to Bloomingdale's and then we went to Dylan's Candy Bar. And that was the heyday of Dylan's Candy Bar, where you could get a little grab bag of candy. And then Serendipity had been featured in a movie with Kate Beckinsale, and I can't remember the name of it now. Oh, it's called Serendipity.
They featured this dessert called the Frozen Hot Chocolate, which is almost like a chocolate granita or slushy. It was the cool thing to do as a 13-year-old girl. And all my friends were like, "Oh, my God, your sister is so cool." So I have this really distinct memory of having that at 13, in the city. But yeah, she really was the cultural intermediary between life at home, which was very Chinese, and life at school, which was very New York and very American.
Kerry Diamond:
What was it like for you having to navigate those two worlds?
Annie Shi:
I think I found it fascinating. I think I found it curious and really interesting, and a fun challenge to fit into both. I understand that for a lot of kids who grew up in immigrant families, it can be more of a lonely experience. I think I was lucky, in so far that Brearley was really kind, and the values were curiosity and academic rigor and kindness. And so for the most part, not knowing what a Muenster bagel was did not make me an outcast.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell them what a Muenster bagel is, not the Munsters, the TV show or the movie.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, it was like the favorite lunch. It's literally a bagel with Muenster cheese under the broiler so that it melts. And it's like a cheesy bagel really. But I never had either a bagel or Muenster before Brearley, so that was news to me.
Kerry Diamond:
So you must have been studious, because you go to Yale.
Annie Shi:
Yes, and that was definitely something in ingrained into me from a very young age. I had a very full schedule from age five, basically. I had Chinese lessons in Flushing, on Saturday, followed by Kumon, which is this Korean company where you learn to do extra math, basically. Followed by the orthodontist, because I had braces for seven years, followed by swimming lessons in Bayside.
It was a full itinerary and my parents really believed in kind of old school getting ahead. And then I was admitted to this amazing organization to which I owe so much Prep for Prep. I don't know if you've heard of it. But it's one of the most successful nonprofits in the country. They've been around for a long time, and they help lower income kids of color find their way into private school at age 13, in New York City, specifically. And then they also have a program called PREP 9, which is for boarding school. And that's how I got into Brearley. But Brearley itself is a super academic environment.
Kerry Diamond:
People might notice, we have not mentioned restaurants at all yet. They did not really factor into your younger life. It's not like you had a part-time job at a restaurant. It's not like you went to Yale thinking, "One day I will-
Annie Shi:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
... own and work in restaurants."
Annie Shi:
I was definitely, categorically, not allowed to work in restaurants. It didn't even cross my mind because my parents were so focused on getting me out of that world. My dad worked in a Chinese takeout shop when he first moved here. He is one of the best and fastest dumpling folders I know, still from that period. And they just didn't want that for me, which I think is pretty classic. All my internships were at Goldman Sachs or in finance, or very white collar things that they aspired for me.
And I never babysat, never worked in restaurants, but I always loved food and I always loved the dinner table. I grew up watching a lot of Food Network, like hours and hours of Rachael Ray and Giada back in the day. But it wasn't really until college that I was thinking about just what else is out there.
And I think, I don't know, I feel like I grew up thinking there were three jobs being a doctor, a lawyer, or being a banker. And I just couldn't fathom that there were other careers beyond those, because they were not introduced to me.
Kerry Diamond:
Which path did you take?
Annie Shi:
I took the finance path, in the end. I was a humanities major. But I was very head in the clouds, didn't know what major I wanted to be, switched around a lot. Chose humanities because it was the most ambiguous, most "interdisciplinary," but basically the one where I had to make the fewest choices major at Yale.
Kerry Diamond:
But that's a famous humanities program, isn't it?
Annie Shi:
It is a very famous humanities program. It was started by Harold Bloom. And it allowed me to basically take the classes I wanted to take and have it count towards my major. I went into finance mostly because after the '08 financial crisis, my mother worked at that point in Citibank, a lot of her retirement funds were locked up in Citi stock. She lost a lot of what she had worked very hard for her entire life. I just felt really bad that as the most educated person in my family that I couldn't understand that, couldn't read the Wall Street Journal, really felt like I didn't have enough practical skills.
So I took a job at JP Morgan to kind of fix those things. And while I was there and living in New York, I really fell in love with restaurants and started scheming a path to what that could look like.
Kerry Diamond:
What was going on in your brain? Did you think you could continue to work in finance and somehow dabble in restaurants?
Annie Shi:
I knew that my time in finance was limited. It was like, this is the best professional training I could get. This is a great leg up to understand how businesses work, and how the real world "works." But I knew, I had a feeling that I wanted to go into food. I didn't know what part of food. I signed up for a weekend course at NYU, while I was at JP Morgan. It took place on the weekend, so it was totally fine. It was a restaurant operations course, because I've always been fascinated by the logistics and the ops side of things.
I did that, and then, while I was in that course, I kind of was trying to find a stage. I cold emailed a bunch of restaurateurs and restaurants. And the one I really wanted to work at was at Barbuto, with Jonathan Waxman, because one of my best friend's families loved Barbuto. So we always went there for special occasions. Our graduation dinner from high school was there, college graduation was there. So all of those dinners, it featured really strongly in my mind.
And Jonathan actually wrote back, and was like, "Sure. Come work at Barbuto for a couple of days, see how you like it." Which, I think, says so much about the kind of mentor he is and how open-minded. He's always thinking about younger folks who want to make their way into the industry. Unfortunately, before I could start, I actually got the chance to move to London with JP Morgan. So I took that, and landed in London, and took a couple months to figure out my job. But then was right back on that train of like, "Well, I'd really like to see the inner workings of a restaurant, and understand if this is the path I want to take."
So I did the same thing. I cold emailed a dozen restaurants in London, heard back from, again, only one, and it was the Clove Club. And it was Tim Spedding, who is the sous chef at that point. And he was like, "Come check it out." So I did, and I actually was staging the back of house. I peeled a lot of potatoes in their basement to start.
Kerry Diamond:
So you show up with a knife kit, what do you show up with?
Annie Shi:
So he wrote back and I immediately beelined it over to the restaurant, because he hadn't said yes, but I just showed up right at five o'clock when the doors opened, because I felt like time was of the essence. If I gave him time to really think it over and read my resume, which had nothing food related, he would realize what a mistake he was making. So I just got there as soon as possible to kind of seal the deal in person. And then he was like, "Yeah..." I didn't have anything. Didn't have an apron, no knife, nothing. But spent the next three months, the weekend, at the Clove Club.
And eventually graduated to, they had this cold dish that involved hazelnuts, so I stood in the corner of the dining room and a full uniform shaving hazelnuts on a truffle shaver to order. Yeah, it was-
Kerry Diamond:
We all start somewhere.
Annie Shi:
Exactly. And it was at this point that I met Jess and Clare.
Kerry Diamond:
The first person you meet of the two is Clare.
Annie Shi:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Somebody sets you up on a friend date.
Annie Shi:
Yes. My roommate at the time, my flatmate, who I went to Brearley with, she had gone to college with Clare and said, "You should meet her. She just got back from cooking school. She's been cooking at the River Cafe. I think you guys should just be friends." Our first meeting was at Ducksoup in Soho. And we ordered the entire menu, and ate it all between the two of us. I think we just, I don't know, we both really dreamed of a restaurant. We weren't sure, we were at this point... She was at the River Cafe, which she loved.
Kerry Diamond:
Legendary London restaurant-
Annie Shi:
Incredible-
Kerry Diamond:
... run by Ruth Rogers.
Annie Shi:
Yeah. You can't get better than that. But she was also dreaming of New York, which is where her partner was and now her husband. So it wasn't like we came together and we were like, "We want to open a restaurant." I mean, it kind of was, but at the same time, I think we individually had this desire to do something like that. And then her best friend on the line was Jess. So I'm met Jess through Clare. I played hooky one day from JP Morgan and took myself on a solo lunch date to the River Cafe. I met Jess, who was cooking. I guess that's how it all came together.
I get asked this question a lot, "How did you find your business partners? How did it all happen?" I was like, it's not like I convinced two individuals to quit their jobs and then move across the ocean, nor did they do that to me. We all three independently made the decision that we were ready for this risk, got along. We did popups in London, popups in New York to make sure that we could get on with each other. But you can't force someone to take that kind of risk. You kind of have to meet in the middle.
Kerry Diamond:
Fast-forward a tiny bit. You all wind up in New York planning to open a restaurant.
Annie Shi:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Clare and Jess do not have that much restaurant experience. You have almost none, aside from the shaving of the hazelnuts, the peeling of vegetables.
Annie Shi:
Let's count that is zero.
Kerry Diamond:
Not only do you all leave London, you come to a city that only you know.
Annie Shi:
Clare had lived here for a year, but, yeah, mostly me.
Kerry Diamond:
You'd never worked in restaurants in the city.
Annie Shi:
Yes. And we decide we're going to open a restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
In the toughest city in the world.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, and I think looking back, this is another question I get asked a lot is, "How do you know when is the right time to take the risk?" We all agree, we're I think the naivete of being younger and not knowing how hard it would be is a large reason why we did it. I think if I knew exactly how hard it would be, I would've been much more deterred. But we were like, "What's the worst that could happen? It doesn't work out. And then we move on. And we don't have a mortgage. We don't have kids to worry about. This is the time to do it if there's ever a time to take a risk." I was 25 at that point. I was like, "Okay, worst case scenario, I could go back to JP Morgan, perhaps."
Kerry Diamond:
You got put in charge of the fundraising, correct?
Annie Shi:
We all kind of did everything, but-
Kerry Diamond:
You did. Okay.
Annie Shi:
... yeah, the fundraising was... I mean, we didn't fully raise our round until after we were open. Because we couldn't raise the money, because everyone was like, "Why should I give money to you? You have no experience."
Kerry Diamond:
And you did not do a friends and family round, right?
Annie Shi:
No, we decided-
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us why you didn't want to take money from people you knew.
Annie Shi:
I think we decided, especially with family, that we were already taking such a big risk. There was already so much, not drama, but just concern from the families that we were doing this, that I think we just saw it from a bird's eye view of if we were to then take money, it would just put more pressure on those relationships and more pressure on us. And we felt like to keep it cleaner and to keep it more professional and business, if we could refrain from taking money from our family, we would.
And I'm really glad we made that decision. I think it kept us more clearheaded, and I think it helped us make decisions in the interest of the business and not have to worry about other things.
Kerry Diamond:
And just to jump ahead a little bit, you did eventually pay your investors back.
Annie Shi:
We did. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good feeling.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, that is the best feeling. It took us a little longer than we thought, but it was a really good feeling.
Kerry Diamond:
So let's go back. You three are running around New York City, you're looking at real estate, you're testing dishes, you're raising money. One of my favorite parts of this chapter is the kindness of strangers.
Annie Shi:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Want to talk about that a little bit?
Annie Shi:
Absolutely. We really were just running around the city and just trying to find any help that we could. And it came in so many different shapes and forms, which is something that we try to pass on. But I'll never forget the days leading up to opening. We did so much ourselves, because we didn't know how to do it otherwise, and because we had no money. But we had brown paper hangings up in the window and we were sweeping and my dad was building our tables.
And we got a knock on the door and it was Robert Bohr and Grant and Ryan and Arvid from Charlie Bird across the street, and they brought over a magnum of Agripart champagne, and they were like, "Welcome to the neighborhood. We're so excited. This neighborhood needs more restaurants. We couldn't be more excited that you guys are opening." Had no idea who they were, had no idea what the champagne was, but it was just so kind of them to welcome us into the neighborhood.
Kerry Diamond:
Because they're literally across the street.
Annie Shi:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You were going to be their brand new, shiny competition.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, exactly. And they're still kitty corner from us, but I think they really believed that rising tide raises all boats. And there's more than enough people in SoHo to dine at two Italian restaurants. And subsequently, so kind came in for dinner all the time. Anytime we had questions, anytime we needed to borrow linens or an apron or a jacket, they were always there, and they still are.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about our friend Vicki Freeman, who-
Annie Shi:
Oh, God, Vicki.
Kerry Diamond:
... has been on the show.
Annie Shi:
She was incredible. So we have to-
Kerry Diamond:
I say Vicki, who's one of the owners of Shukette and Shuka and Cookshop, and several other restaurants in the city.
Annie Shi:
She really was so crucial in all this. So if we were to rewind a bit, before we found our home at 18 King Street, we were looking at a spot on East Broadway near Two Bridges, and had been in this lengthy lease negotiation. The lease was 150 pages, not even kidding, but the space had already been built out. And so this was a moment where we're weighing our pros and cons, and we're saying, "Oh, it's great because there's less construction risk of something happening, and then we blow our budget." But there was a part of the lease that said, basically, "If there's any inspection where you fail because of the current build out, you are responsible for remedying that." And we're like, "Hold on a second. We have no idea what's behind these walls. How can we be held responsible for the construction that we were not a part of?"
And it kind of was a sticking point and it stalled negotiations. And at the same time, Jess and Clare and I were really uncertain that was the right location. It really had no charm. The build out was pretty commercial. So we were talking to Jonathan Waxman about it at this point, and he was like, "You have to talk to Vicki, who is a sister to me. And she is an absolute whiz when it comes to real estate, and understanding if it's going to fit a concept or not." I don't even think we had met Vicki in person at that point. We got on a call with her.
And she and her son, I will never forget this, took a trip to Chinatown to come look at the space and did a drive by. We showed them the inside. And she was like, "Guys, you can't do this. You can't take the space. It's not going to work. Your concept doesn't match the neighborhood. The space doesn't match what you want it to feel like. You're making this classic mistake of thinking a lower rent is less risk, when in fact, if you go for a different neighborhood with higher rent, you will have a higher check size."
We were really afraid to sign away our lives on a 10-year commercial lease. We weren't ready for that. So I think there was definitely some of that fear that was part of our decision. But she said to us, "Go away. Sit in a dark room in a corner and really think about this. You should not sign this lease." So we didn't sign it.
Kerry Diamond:
And she was right.
Annie Shi:
And she was right. And so we kept looking. But it was a really scary moment, because you've already started to use some of that money to get lawyers involved, to get architects to look at the space. And we were on a really tight deadline. We felt like if we couldn't open by a certain point, we would never be able to open. And we were desperate for that first restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
So shout out to Vicki, that was so kind.
Annie Shi:
Really kind. I can't imagine being anywhere but where we are now. That location is so much part of King and she was a 100% correct. We should have held out. And I'm really glad we did.
Kerry Diamond:
You've brought up Jonathan Waxman a few times. Tell us about Jonathan and Jen Davidson from Barbuto.
Annie Shi:
Jen was for a long time Jonathan's right-hand woman, and she ran Barbuto. And this is now after we've opened, we are now, officially, in September 2016, and I had no clue what I was doing.
Kerry Diamond:
Despite all those classes you took.
Annie Shi:
Despite all those classes, turns out, I should have just worked in a restaurant, which is my one real regret is just not doing it more. But I thought I just didn't staff properly. I thought I could be a food runner, the host, the manager, the bar... We had no support staff. We had one bartender and two servers. And we couldn't even find... Those people that we hired were friends of ours who also never worked in a restaurant, because we couldn't hire real professionals.
And there was a service where we just went down and up absolute flames. And I just remember bawling on the stoop of our next door neighbor. And Jonathan was like, "Call Jen." So I spoke to Jen the next day. She was like, "Okay, here is how you put together a reservation book. Here's how you understand reservations. Here's how you staff. This is the number of tables a section should have.. A section should also just have one server and that's it. You need food runners. You need a host." She really laid it out for me. I mean, I really, really needed that, and that was a turning point for me in terms of running front of house.
I always call her a restaurant fairy godmother. She's like a phone call away. In those early days, she really just helped give me a framework for what I should be doing, and I can't imagine... Yeah, that was the lowest point, truly of the first year.
Kerry Diamond:
Then one more person I want you to talk about, Victoria James, who are listeners also know.
Annie Shi:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
The author of Wine Girl.
Annie Shi:
Yeah. It's so funny how all these people, we met them so early on with no idea what the connections would be seven years later. But I came to the city and I was in charge of the wine list, because I loved wine, but also slightly by default. Because I was like, "Jess, Clare, you guys are in charge of the food. I need something creative and fun. And I love wine, but I know nothing about wine." But I knew I wanted to bring in Tempier rosé. That was going to be a cornerstone of the wine list. It's the most quintessential and iconic Provençal rosé. And so I was like, okay, how do I do that? And naively thought I could just buy it.
I was introduced to the Kermit Lynch rep, who was like, "You can't just buy it. There's something called allocations. You have to buy other things, and then maybe we'll give you a bottle." Victoria was at that time working at Piora, the old school Simon Kim restaurant on Hudson Street. I ended up staging with her for a couple of weekends to just understand what a sommelier did, and understand that world a little bit more. And so she showed me how to open a bottle of wine. And what's crucial in the story is that it was after one of those dodges at Piora, I was walking to the train station, that I walked by Mekong, which was the previous restaurant at 18 King Street.
I looked at it and I was like, "Oh, my God, it's everything we want. It's a corner location with a separate barroom, a square dining room, lots of windows, and a kitchen on the first floor." We had a pretty clear checklist and I couldn't believe that it was right there. That was how we found 18 King Street. And we ended up, the old owner, Brian, who owned Mekong after a couple of visits was like, "I'm really done with the landlord. My lease is ending. He's going to put it on the market in a couple days. If you want it, here's his number. Call him." And that's how it happened.
Kerry Diamond:
Amazing. So the restaurant opens, the media is immediately dazzled by your story of these three newbies, but they are especially intrigued by the fact that you are three women opening a restaurant. And the three of you bristled a little bit of getting all the attention for being women.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, I think we really actually didn't want the media attention, because strategically you're bound to fail. If you don't know what we were doing and you get media attention and media hype, you're going to just disappoint everybody. So we were actually trying to do a very soft opening and kind of-
Kerry Diamond:
An extended soft opening?
Annie Shi:
Yes, we were like, "Let people discover it, let us get some experience under our wings." Unfortunately, I think the location really was a draw, like a corner spot in SoHo. I understand, there's only so many of them and so-
Kerry Diamond:
There's only so much hiding you can do.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, for sure. And I think there was interest in us being three women, but we didn't want to market it that way, because no one comes back to a restaurant because it's run by three women. No one falls in love with the restaurant because it's run by three women. People-
Kerry Diamond:
Except me.
Annie Shi:
Except for you. People come back because they love the food. They love how the restaurant makes them feel. They love the staff. They love the experience. And that's what we wanted to deliver on before it got to the three of us and our identities.
Kerry Diamond:
You did manage to pull it together, though, because you got a great review from the New York Times before your first year had even hit.
Annie Shi:
Yes, we did and we were so lucky to get that review. It was a really tough slog. Before that review came out, there was no context for understanding King. And I think at that moment in New York City, I don't know if... It was 2016, it was like when every restaurant had to have a burger on the menu and every restaurant had to have a signature dish. And it was kind of a moment for the bigger hospitality groups as well.
And we came in and had a daily changing menu with four starters and three mains, half of which would 86 by the end of the night because we could not figure out our pars, because our menu changed all the time. I just remember the number of angry guests that we had to deal with who would point to a photo on their phone, and say, "I want that." And I was like, "I'm so sorry, that's from three weeks ago. That's not menu tonight." And they wouldn't understand or they would get mad that we wouldn't provide them with a dipping sauce for the panisse. Or why couldn't the hanger steak be served with a side of steak sauce or ketchup?
It was a really... No one got it. And so that review from Pete Wells was crucial, because it framed us in the right context. It said a daily changing menu is the core of what we do, and that's the special part.And it also gave reference to the River Cafe, and that lineage that we had come from and kind of explained... The daily changing menu at that point was much more commonly seen and understood in London, but it certainly wasn't like a mode of restauranting in New York.
And so I think that review helped people understand us. And after that review, the right people sought us out, and it became much easier to have happy guests.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you doing okay up until that point? Was there any danger that the restaurant would have to shut down? Or did you feel like you were getting better every day?
Annie Shi:
Oh, God, it's-
Kerry Diamond:
Because it was so bumpy in the beginning.
Annie Shi:
It was so... I mean, we were fully booked. Did I feel like we were getting better every day? I don't think Jess, Clare, or I could even think back to that. I mean, it certain didn't feel that way to us, because I think we were so tired and so in the weeds, constantly. It felt like we were just drowning every day. But you had no choice but to open your doors.
We were doing okay financially, because we were three owners who did the job of nine people. So our labor costs were very much adjusted for that. I guess, we were just so in the thick of it, I don't think we could have had any perspective on how we were doing. But that review really was a huge turning point.
Kerry Diamond:
Was there any point where you thought you might have to throw in the towel?
Annie Shi:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Failure was not an option.
Annie Shi:
It wasn't an option. I've never been so unhappy as I was in that first year. I mean, I think we all have PTSD from that first year of opening, truly. It never crossed our minds to give up. I don't think we could think ahead, frankly. I think it was like, "Okay, let's get through service tonight. Let's see if all of our staff show up. Let's see if we can make people happy, and then let's order enough meat and fish for tomorrow." It really was not looking very far ahead.
Kerry Diamond:
One of the things that blows my mind about King is not only the daily changing menu, which you still have, but that you have no recipes.
Annie Shi:
Yeah. It really is about what tastes best. And that is Jess and Clare's mantra. It's like just keep tasting, season until it tastes good. We're working on our King cookbook, which will hopefully-
Kerry Diamond:
Now I know why it's taken so long.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, it's been hard, because we are trying to finally memorialize these recipes. But that sensitivity to cooking is such a huge part of King. It's the whole idea that I can't tell you how long to braise these fava beans for, because I don't know where you are in the season of fava beans, or I don't know what the delivery today was like. And if it was a bit woodsier and harder, then braise it for 10 more minutes, until they're soft. There's that kind of looseness and interpretation, because they really want the cooks to be intuitive in the way they approach food. And I think that's honestly half the reason why the food is so delicious at King.
Kerry Diamond:
Congratulations on making the New York Times 100 best restaurants-
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
... in New York City. That must have been a thrill.
Annie Shi:
That was. We were so surprised.
Kerry Diamond:
That whole special section came from out of nowhere. I don't think anybody knew it was in the works.
Annie Shi:
No. I mean usually you know that he's putting something together like that, or... We were-
Kerry Diamond:
They're snooping around.
Annie Shi
... completely surprised and taken aback, but honestly so thrilled. Obviously, we've opened Jupiter this past year, but we've had the most incredible team at King. Our head chef Angel has been with us for five years. Our general manager, Natalie has been with us for two years. Sous chef Audrey has been with us for four years now. So many people who make that restaurant run every single day, because we're no longer there every single day. It was such a wonderful thing to see. And I felt like it was recognition of all their hard work. We're really proud.
Kerry Diamond:
That's wonderful.
Annie Shi:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about Jupiter. You must have gotten lots of opportunities over the years to open other restaurants. Why was this the right opportunity?
Annie Shi:
It's a really good question. I think first off, a lot of people are surprised how long it took us, but it really felt like we really wanted King to be super solid before we took any of our attention away from it.
But I think why Jupiter? I think we were really wowed by the Rockefeller Center. It is iconic in its architecture, in a way that no other opportunity has been. I grew up here. I remember going to see the tree every winter for a couple of years when I was younger. And it is part of New York City. It is smack dab in the middle of Manhattan. When you walk around, you're like, "Oh my God, this is the best art deco architecture hands down in New York City, maybe in the Northeast." And I think we felt like there was an opportunity to be part of something so iconic.
And I think on top of that, we had a lot of friends from downtown who had said yes to opportunities here. And were like, Riad and Lee are doing it then, sure, sign us up.
Kerry Diamond:
From Frenchette, who have Le Rock, here.
Annie Shi:
Yeah. So we felt like the group of restaurants was incredible, and we felt like the location was incredible. And pasta is something that we do at King every day. There's always one pasta. But we've never really been able to flex our muscle when it comes to that, because we just don't have the space. And we thought that what is easier to love than pasta? It seemed like the concept would make a lot of sense for this part of town, and it would be something that everyone could love and have.
I think we had the concept that we thought made the most sense for this opportunity, relative to other things we've looked at. So that was all kind of part of the decision to take on Jupiter.
Kerry Diamond:
So it's still Italian.
Annie Shi:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Pasta driven, but you have recipes.
Annie Shi:
We have recipes, yes. You can't have 140 seat restaurant and not have recipes, as it turns out. So where King is a tiny menu, Southern French, Italian, Jupiter is like unabashedly Italian with a focus on pasta. We opened the week of Thanksgiving straight into the tree lighting and the ice skating rink opening, and it really was an opening unlike anything else. Just wild amounts of people, to the point where we would have guests tell us that they couldn't find their way downstairs, because the streets were so packed with bodies.
And I think we knew we had to open, but I thought we understood seasonality coming from downtown and King. Turns out we have no clue what that means in Midtown, and it really was hundreds of people. It's been a pretty wild ride.
Kerry Diamond:
To add an interesting layer to everything, you are pregnant with your first baby.
Annie Shi:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And your partner, Clare, was pregnant with her third baby.
Annie Shi:
And she just gave birth almost a month ago. Yeah. Her third.
Kerry Diamond:
Folks might not realize you're pregnant on the cover, but you are.
Annie Shi:
I was most definitely very pregnant in that cover. My first trimester was the restaurant opening.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you do it? Because you're on your feet all the time. I mean, I see you in your restaurants all the time. You're always on your feet.
Annie Shi:
So I actually think that restaurant lifestyle of constantly being on your feet kind of helps the pregnancy. This is just a hunch that I have from talking to other women who have been pregnant in the industry. It keeps you moving and it keeps you active. And obviously, if you have to run around then that's not great. But walking is very good for you. And I think for me it helped with the weight gain, it helped with kind of adjusting to that gently over time. I feel like if I'd actually had my desk job, my old JP Morgan job, it would've been much harder.
But I was very lucky, I didn't have a terrible first trimester. But I also really appreciate just, I don't know, when you have something so important to take your mind off of how badly you feel, it helps you. You kind of forget about it. I think trying to get Jupiter lift off helped me take my mind off of the fact that I was constantly nauseous.
Kerry Diamond:
There was no point where you were like, "This might be too stressful for the baby"?
Annie Shi:
No, I think there was just so much going on. I knew I always had the option, if I raised my hand, I was like, "Guys, I just can't be on my feet as much." Or my head is in the toilet bowl for a week, which it didn't happen to me. I knew, Jess and Clare are incredible partners, they would've been like, "That's totally fine. Obviously, take your time."
But maybe it was also knowing that I had that support in the back that made it easier to keep going. I really feel like keeping busy is actually, for me, better. I would obsess over the pregnancy, I'm kind of type A in that way, but because I didn't have the time to, it actually has made it easier. If that makes sense.
Kerry Diamond:
I know you know this, a lot of women of childbearing age in the industry worry that the industry is so incompatible with having children. Have you thought about that or talked about that?
Annie Shi:
I mean, it's definitely hard, because it is just work happens at night, and that coincides with bedtime and bath time and putting your kids to bed. And I think that is unquestionably a decision that every parent has to make for themselves. Whether or not you absolutely want to be there and need to be there every single night, or if that's something that you can split with your partner or split with a babysitter.
At King, we've had multiple women who've worked for us, become pregnant. Our head chef is the best example, Angel, she has an amazing almost two-year-old, and she came back and she finds balance. And it's because she has a great partner and she has support in that way, but it's definitely hard.
So the way she balances it is she's still there at night a couple nights a week. She's not there the same way she used to be when she was our sous chef. And I'm sure there are moments when she wishes she could be at home. You make it kind of work, and we give flexibility where possible. I think every situation is different, because it depends on what the network of support is and it depends on what is most important to you as a parent.
Kerry Diamond:
It's definitely not discussed enough in the industry.
Annie Shi:
No, it's really hard. I think Angel's approach of like, "Well, I can be there some nights for bedtime, but not every night," that was the compromise that she made, and that she's comfortable with.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you know Camilla Marcus from West-Bourne?
Annie Shi:
Yeah. She's a great friend.
Kerry Diamond:
Camilla has been such an outspoken advocate for parents in the restaurant industry, and she's one of the only people I have ever... No, she is the only person I have ever heard talk about night care. Everybody talks about daycare, talks about parental leave, but nobody talks about night care, and that's when restaurants are hopping.
Annie Shi:
Yeah. It's something that we talked about a lot during COVID as well is the option to have night care. I think there's so many legal reasons that make it harder. We've spoken to Vivvi, which is a daycare startup, and the amount of regulations that they have to adhere to even just run a daycare is immense, as you can imagine, rightly so. But the idea of night care is certainly needed, because there's so many jobs that operate at night. It feels like it's not talked about, because everyone works a 9:00 to 5:00, but night care would definitely make it easier.
It's just, I don't know how you structure that, because then are you picking your kids up at midnight, waking them up, bringing them home? A routine is, apparently, as I'm learning, such a thing for babies, how do you incorporate that into night care and into jobs that take place at night? An idea that I've heard is you can kind of have a credit program, where if you have unofficial childcare like a grandmother who comes or an aunt or a neighbor, a trusted friend, that you can reimburse them in a way with this credit, in the same way that you would a babysitter to kind of recognize the childcare that's taking place.
Because in a way, it's easier if the night care happens in your own home rather than an offset location. It's something that Camilla talked a lot about actually. It would be really nice to see more options, because I think that is the hardest choice parents have to make. And it's something that I'm trying to figure out. After I give birth, I'm like, "Well, am I going to be on the floor with a sleeping baby strapped to my chest? How does it work?" And I actually don't have an answer for that yet. So I think right now all I can say is I feel like every parent and every situation is unique, and it's a discussion with everyone involved.
Kerry Diamond:
We wish you absolutely all the best with this. And I know a-
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
... lot of women will be looking to you to see how you navigate this.
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
One more thing I'm going to talk to you about. I know just me as a personal fan of yours, I know you've got so many projects on your hands already. You've got this baby coming, very soon. Do you ever think you'll do a restaurant project that ties into your heritage?
Annie Shi:
Yes, for sure. Even when I was doing that NYU restaurant operations course, that was the business plan that I wrote back in the day. I definitely want to do something with Chinese food. I like feel it. It's been my number one craving in pregnancy is actually just rice soup and Chinese food. So it's definitely been on my mind a little bit more than ever. But I really want to do a Chinese wine bar, where you have Chinese small plates or Chinese food with a great wine program. And it's selfishly just for me, because every year on my birthday, that's what I want is Chinese food, but with a great wine program.
And so that is something that I am thinking about. Jupiter definitely needs steading and love and attention, as does King, but that is on my mind. And hopefully will come to fruition in the sometime near future. But it's been amazing to see the reception Chinese food is getting in New York City. And the part of Chinese cuisine that I'm interested in exploring is definitely more from my father's side of the family, near Shanghai. That whole region has food that's much more wine friendly, so it's not like the fiery chilies and the numbing spice of Citron or Hunan.
It's a little bit more delicate. It's about letting ingredients speak for themselves. And those flavors are flavors that could easily work with wines of all kinds. But you just don't see that cuisine very much yet in New York. So that's the idea and the hope.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. I'll be one of your first customers. Let's do a speed round. Coffee and tea, how about caffeine? Have you been avoiding caffeine?
Annie Shi:
No, coffee. I know, it's different for everybody, but that was the one concession. I was like, "I can't open a restaurant and not drink coffee."
Kerry Diamond:
How do you take it?
Annie Shi:
Iced, year round, with oat milk.
Kerry Diamond:
A treasured cookbook or book on food?
Annie Shi:
I love the Fuchsia Dunlop Chinese cookbooks. We cook from them very often at home.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite kitchen implement?
Annie Shi:
Ooh. I would have to say our butcher block at home. Everything gets chopped on it. It is so hardy. It's seen so much wear and tear, but it's amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite food film?
Annie Shi:
I've got to say Ratatouille. I'm sure you get that a lot. But I just love cartoons and I love movies. I love the Disney Classics and that's one of my favorite.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite childhood snack?
Annie Shi:
These little lychee jellies. You buy them in a big jar at a Korean or Asian supermarket, but they would have little chunks of lychee in the middle of them, so good.
Kerry Diamond:
Yum. Something that's always in your fridge?
Annie Shi:
We always have about 20 bottles of chili oil or Sriracha. We are a condiment household, so that, for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
What's a song that makes you smile?
Annie Shi:
Anything by the Bee Gees, which is the band that we listened to the most when my husband and I started dating. And we almost had a Bee Gee impersonation band at her wedding. And then I was told that was lame and not cool, so it got scrapped.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Last question, if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity and you can't say Clare or Jess, who would it be and why?
Annie Shi:
Ooh, God, that is a really good one. A food celebrity on a desert island. I have got to say, maybe, Cecilia Chiang from back in the day, just because she was so instrumental to changing the Chinese food scene in SF. And I'd love to hear about what that was like and introducing Chinese food when it was so unknown. I'm going to stick with that.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a beautiful answer. Did you ever meet her?
Annie Shi:
No, I didn't.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh.
Annie Shi:
Yeah, I read so much about her, but I've never had the chance to meet her.
Kerry Diamond:
Annie, you are the Bombe. Wishing just super smooth sailing in the weeks ahead.
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And I can't wait to meet the little one.
Annie Shi:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. If you are a longtime listener or a new listener and you've enjoyed this interview, subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on your favorite podcast platform. If you're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you listen, just click the little subscribe button, and don't miss a single future episode. Thank you in advance for doing that. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. Our producer is Catherine Baker. And our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thanks to you for listening. You are the Bombe.