Benjamina Ebuehi Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer and cookbook author, and my fourth book is coming out this fall. Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
My guest on today's episode is baker, food stylist and cookbook author, Benjamina Ebuehi. Benjamina was a quarter-finalist on the “Great British Bake Off” where she stood out for her approachable and creative recipes. Since then, she's written three baking books, including “The New Way to Cake,” “A Good Day to Bake” and her newest, “I'll Bring Dessert.” I love that title. This celebration of shareable recipes is perfect for entertaining and features lots of simple treats to whip up in no time. I loved chatting with Benjamina about her experience on the “Great British Bake Off,” her tips and tricks for make-ahead desserts and her recipe for Tarragon Plum Cobbler from “I'll Bring Dessert.” Benjamina and I share a similar approach to baking and recipe development. We both love no nonsense, unfussy sweets. And I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. Be sure to visit cherrybombe.com for Benjamina's recipe. Stay tuned for our chat.
Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter for supporting today's show. As some of you know, I've been a big fan of Plugra for some time now and was introduced to it at my very first bakery job when I was just a newbie baker. Fast-forward to today, I'm a professional baker, cookbook author and recipe developer, and I continue to rely on Plugra for all my baking needs. My fridge is always stocked with Plugra sticks and solids. I especially love that Plugra contains 82% butter fat. The higher butter fat content means less moisture and more fat, and as bakers know, fat equals flavor. Plugra butter is also slow-churned, making it more pliable and easy to work with. I do a lot of baking this time of year for work and for myself and my family, comfy bakes like my pistachio chocolate anytime buns and cinnamon sugar buttermilk doughnut holes, and I always reach for Plugra unsalted butter. I've also been making a lot of yeasted breads lately, and I love the buttery flavor Plugra adds to my dough. Plugra Premium European Style Butter is the perfect choice from professional kitchens to your home kitchen. Ask for Plugra at your favorite grocery store or visit Plugra.com for a store locator and recipes.
Peeps, the new icons issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine is here and it features three culinary icons on the covers. Indian food superstar, Madhur Jaffrey, Dr. Jessica B. Harris, and the Chinatown champion, Grace Young. Inside you'll find stories on more incredible women in the world of food plus recipes like Marcella Hazan's iconic tomato sauce. You can snag a copy or subscribe at CherryBombe.com or pick up a copy at a retailer near you like Kitchen Arts and Letters in New York City, Now Serving in LA, Moon Palace Books in Minneapolis, and Bold Fork Books in Washington. D.C. Check out cherrybombe.com for our complete list of retailers.
Let's check in with today's guest. Benjamina, I'm so happy to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to chat cobbler with you and so much more.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course. So you grew up in London in a Nigerian home with excellent cooks like your mom and your aunties, but there were no bakers. So if you wanted something sweet when you were little, you had to make it yourself. Also, there's not a lot of baked goods in Nigerian cuisine, correct?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I know you've always had a sweet tooth, a fascination with all things baking. Can you tell us about, I think it was when you were 14, about how you started baking?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So I think food in general has always been something I've been quite curious about and just how you put flavors together. I was a kid that would be in the kitchen with family. But in terms of baking, my mom got me these kids cookbooks that I would slowly work my way through and practice things. And then, as I got a bit older, I just fell in love with it and it became my hobby and something I would just do on the weekends or if there was a birthday coming up, I would be the one to make the little cupcakes. And then, as I got older, just had more time to experiment and play around with things. And it was just a hobby that I absolutely loved.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about anything sort of memorable that you baked as a kid that you were or still are proud of or it could be a failure? I like failures or successes.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Failure is always good. I do remember one thing, I tried to do this ombre cake, back in the day, ombre cakes were very popular, where the actual cakes were different shades of blue. That was what I was trying to go for, like an underwater theme. Don't do any themed cakes now, but at the time, that was very popular. And I just picked up this food coloring from the supermarket, very cheap, very simple. And every cake just turned a different shade of brown instead of a different shade of blue. Being young, you just panicking, you're like, "Oh my god, it's awful." And yeah, I remember that to this day because it was just absolutely... So I spent so much money buying the ingredients and all the food coloring and it was just 10 shades of brown. It was-
Jessie Sheehan:
It's brown ombre-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Brown ombre.
Jessie Sheehan:
... rather than blue ombre.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in 2016, you were on the “Great British Bake Off,” the seventh season. And you're only 23. You'd recently graduated from college. I think I know the answer to this, but was this a dream come true? I think I've read that you said it was like your favorite show.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, I loved it. I remember, none of my friends watched it, none of my family watched it, so it would just be my thing. And I just watch “Bake Off” and catch up every week. So to be on it was just absolutely, "How?" I just kept pinching myself like, "How did I get here? I'm actually in the tent. That's Mary Berry right there in front of me. That's Paul." The wildest thing. It took me so long to get my head around it like, "You are going to be on the show. People are going to watch you." Insane. Absolutely insane.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us how? Is that like somebody slides into your DMs, "Do you want to be on the “Great British Bake Off’"? How does it happen?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No so it's an application process. And I just applied. I didn't tell anyone. I thought, "Oh, if I don't get on, no one has to know, it's fine, carry on, but at least I know that I gave it a go." So it's a really long process. You do a written form, and then, a telephone interview. Then you have auditions and lots of different stages with producers. And you have to bake in groups. And they film you when you are baking just to make sure you can bake and talk and not freeze up and all that stuff. So it's a very long process. Every stage that I kept going past was just, "Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, I've got through. Oh my gosh, I've got through. Oh no, I might actually have to do this?" And then panic. But I did it and it was amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
You've said it was even more intense than you expected.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Way more intense. Way more intense.
Jessie Sheehan:
It looked so intense to me. How could it be more than that?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I don't know. Good point. Looking back, it does look quite crazy. I just think you underestimate how much practice you have to put in. And you are practicing alongside working. So everyone's doing their normal jobs and they're trying to fit in practicing for shooting on the show that week. And you shoot two days in the week, so it could be a Tuesday and a Wednesday, and so to fit that in around your normal schedule, you just overthink things, "I want to do this. I want to do that. I want to try this. I want to try new things. And I want to stand out." And just trying to think of new ideas every single week and then coming in and delivering, it's just mentally was exhausting, absolutely exhausting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about something that you baked? Was it a huge success or a huge failure? Either one.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I think week one stood out, one, because it was the first week and everyone was nervous. The first time you're meeting the other bakers. The first time you're seeing everyone and seeing the tents. So the nerves were in the roof, it was so high. I was making, it was a white chocolate and hazelnut mirror glaze cake. And I remember making the buttercream and it just would not come together. It was like a Swiss meringue buttercream. I'd practiced this at home so many times and it just was not working.
And then, I just started crying because the panic, I was just like, "I don't want to be the first one to go home." That was one of my things, "If you get here, do not be the first one to go." And so, just completely broke down, just crying like, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm going to go home." And it ended up being amazing and the judges really loved it. Eventually somehow came together. The judges loved it. And so, I think after that, I just kind of calmed down a bit and it's like, "Okay, you've got this. It's fine. No more crying please."
Jessie Sheehan:
So your dessert style was described at the time that you were on the show as combining classic simple flavors with fresh modern style, maybe with an emphasis on presentation because you're not happy when things are not picture perfect, when you were praised for your approachable and creative recipes with unique flavor profiles. Would you say that that still describes your style or would you say your style has changed since then?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I think it's evolved slightly, but I would say that that's still kind of the core of it. I don't like things that are overly fussy or complicated. I think things should be approachable and you should be able to look at something and think, "Yeah, I could make that." So I like that. And I like incorporating flavors that perhaps are a little bit unexpected, but still really work and still makes sense, and again, aren't overly technical. So I think that is still true. Maybe the presentation bit, I think I relaxed on that front. I definitely prefer it just a lot more as it would be if anyone was to make this in their house. I don't think it needs to be, everything has to be perfect and symmetrical, just make it and it will be good.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're speaking my love language when you say that because even though I'm a cookbook writer and a recipe developer, I've been doing this for a long time, I'm not good at making things look good, it's just not my jam. I'm much more rustic, artisanal. I mean, you can use all those words, those kind of fake words to describe when you're bad at it. So I appreciate when people are sort of a little bit more chill about that. I still so appreciate people that make those gorgeous creations, but I'm a little bit more like you, like less fussy-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, like let's focus on the-
Jessie Sheehan:
... a little more approachable. Also, it is really nice as a consumer of cookbooks when you make something that actually looks like the photograph and the photograph isn't so-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Unachievable.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah. Like, "How do I get there? Why does mine never look like that?"
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And it's just not nice. It's not a nice feeling.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. And I see that in the style of the photography in your book.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's beautiful-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
... but it doesn't look like, "Oh my God, I could never make that."
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
So your third cookbook is called “I'll Bring Dessert,” love, love, love that title.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I found it so inspiring reading through it. I'm already inspired by, there's a dessert in there with sort of a crust made of like Rice Krispie cereal or Cocoa Krispies. There's flan in a loaf pan, which I think is brilliant. Mud cakes, cream puffs on a plate, I love that way of presenting cream puffs for dessert at a dinner party. So those are all the things that inspire me. But also, I love the concept of the book, can you unpack that for us?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I host quite a lot. I love having my friends around. I love to feed them, eat everything, "Come and let me just cook for you." And I also like to go out. I get invited to friends houses. And I'm always the person that will say, "Oh, I'll bring dessert. Don't worry, I'll do dessert." And I think, over time, I was getting a bit in a rut. I would bring the same sorts of things. Either be a tiramisu, because everyone loves tiramisu, or some sort of cheesecake, or maybe some brownies, or an apple crumble, which is really popular in the UK. And I think I just noticed myself bringing the same sorts of things.
And then, I took to Instagram and was like, "Guys, if you were asked to bring dessert, what do you go for? What would be your go-to?" And everyone sort of said very similar things, it was tiramisu, it's cheesecakes, it was cookies or brownies, it was crumble or maybe a pie. And that was pretty much it. And I think that's when the light bulb was like, there's so much more we could do and bring for dessert. And it's very easy to kind of get stuck in that same old, same old, and it's hard to find that new inspiration of what you could bring. And that's kind of how the book came about of just trying to give people some more ideas of things that are still quite simple and not too crazy and extravagant, but would go down really well at any kind of dinner party or really relaxed gathering.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I also think, in the book, you describe the person who always brings dessert as the pudding provider.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. I have to start. I mean, that was part of the joy of reading your book was like, if we like something, we say, "Oh, it's totally up my alley," but you guys say up my street.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's right up my street.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my God, I'm dying. I love street.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's right up my street.
Jessie Sheehan:
Up my street and pudding provider are my two favorite things. I love that you're sort of giving us, through this book, all this inspiration for what to bring when we're invited out or what to make at home.
I also love, and we've already touched on this in terms of your style, but it's not a fussy restaurant-style dessert book with lots of components, so there's a simplicity to it. Many of them are one dish, we call those one bowl, which I love. Easy to transport.
And I also love how the chapters are arranged more by texture and flavor. And in my last book, I did something similar where I had like the nut chapter, the same way you did. Well, you can tell us what they're called, but I love the names.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So I split the chapters into Something Fruity, Something Chocolatey, Something Nutty, Something Creamy and Something on the Side. And that's just, literally, how I think about what I want to bring for dessert. Someone says, "Oh, can you just bring dessert for this dinner I'm doing?" I think, "Oh, what's the vibe? Do I want to do something nutty, something fruity? Who's going to be there? What's the vibe? What's time of year is it?" And so, I thought, "Well, that's exactly how I try and think about what I want to bring." And that's how I decided to do the chapters. So I love them.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because this is a book about, yes, making things at home, but also, bringing them, “I'll Bring Dessert,” that there's a lot of talk about which ones can be made... Well, everything can be made in advance, but how to do so. So I love all those tips about how to transport them, et cetera. I also loved your reheating tip, just reminding people that if you've made, let's say the cobbler, which we're going to talk about, already, when you're reheating it at a friend's house or at home, we call it 300 degrees Fahrenheit. What would it be Celsius?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It would be Celsius, about 160 Celsius.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Just remember not to go too high in the reheating.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think I'm always like, "Oh, 350."
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Because it's just automatic, isn't it?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It’s just a gentle reheat.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to talk about your tarragon, plum cobbler specifically, but before we do, I just wanted to talk about cobblers generally.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you've described a cobbler as an ideal, all-year round sort of pudding. And for the listeners that don't know, pudding for you means dessert-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
A dessert, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or sweet or treat.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Interchangeable.
Jessie Sheehan:
All-year round sort of pudding that can be thrown together fairly quickly without too much forward planning, which sounds like my ideal dessert. Describe for us what a cobbler is.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
We don't have many cobblers in the UK, I would say.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, interesting.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
We have more crumbles and pies, but even pies are not as popular as they are over here. So crumbles are the main thing we have.
Jessie Sheehan:
Were you inspired by the United States?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes. This was definitely more American inspired because cobblers aren't a big thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
That is fascinating.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
They're not a big thing. I think they're slowly getting a bit more known in just regular mainstream food world, but they're still not as popular as crumbles, that's like number one mean.
Jessie Sheehan:
Benjamina, that's so interesting because I would think-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
This was definitely-
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like England, it's like it's all about scones and biscuits.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, it's fruits and custard and pudding.
Jessie Sheehan:
Basically, a cobbler is a scone or a biscuit on top of fruit.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Basically.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So it's not a big thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
... interesting.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
This was definitely inspired by the states.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that. I love that.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
For sure. But even still, from a bit of research and being in America sometimes and trying cobblers, they're all very different. So I've seen cobblers where it's more like a cake batter that's on top. And then, I've seen cobblers that are more biscuits on top and cobblers that are more, I guess scraggly and a bit more rough. So I think even over here, cobblers can look different depending on where you're from. Is that right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Well, we have a funny thing because sometimes people use cobbler, crumble and crisp all interchangeably. I do think of cobbler as like cobblestones, so that the top should have this kind of... I think of it most traditionally as biscuity in that way that you describe. But you're absolutely right, people will make almost like just a looser biscuit dough and put that over the top and then it's cake. Or I guess it depends on your dough, but you could almost spread it with like a spatula on top. But you're right, in general, I think people when they read cobbler think of something biscuit-y-ish. But you're right, even here, it's a little confusing.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It could be a bit different.
Jessie Sheehan:
And as we've said, a cobbler is different from a crumble. You also have your perfect apple crumble that's in the book, which is more like a streusel topping.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you guys also... You guys have cobblers, or there is in this book, you have crumbles. Do you have crisps? Because we also differentiate between a crisp and a crumble.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Traditionally, a crisp has oats because it's crispier and a crumble is more like streusel.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh. So we don't have crisps-
Jessie Sheehan:
You don't say that.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... just crumble. But some crumbles have oats and some crumbles don't-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, there you go.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... but they're still both called crumbles.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. And crisps is also what you call potato chips.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And also crisps... Yeah. We've got savory crisps.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay, so the recipe we're going to talk about, so delicious, Tarragon Plum Cobbler, which makes sense because herbs and fruit are sort of your jam, pun intended. You describe the tarragon here as a quiet player that brings just enough aniseed and licorice vibes that'll still work for people like you and me who do not love licorice.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
But I wondered about how you came upon the pairing of tarragon and plums, only because I, in general, don't always use a lot of herbs, fresh herbs in my baking. I did recently write a savory easy baking book and had to kind of explore my spice drawer in a way I never have. And I found that's a skill, knowing what-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
What goes-
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean that's such an obvious point. Of course, it's a skill.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
But I know what you mean.
Jessie Sheehan:
But knowing what goes together. How did you say to yourself, "Oh, if it's plums, it's definitely going to be tarragon." Or, "If I'm using tarragon, I'm definitely going to have plums."
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I use plums.
Jessie Sheehan:
How did you know?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It was a lot of trial and error, to be honest. It wasn't an instant tarragon or plums or plums, definitely let's do tarragon. I wanted to use tarragon because I do really enjoy that kind of fennel, aniseed flavor that it has. So I don't like licorice, but I like that tarragon is a bit more subtle and a bit more gentle. So I knew I wanted to do that and was trying to play around with the fruits. I think I tried blackberries at first. I liked it, but didn't love it. I think the blackberries were just a bit too small and I wanted a fruit that was a bit chunkier. So from then, it was just a bit of trial and error and just seeing what could kind of fit. Apples were also quite a good one, but I didn't want to do an apple cobbler, I wanted something a bit more stone fruit. And then, I just tried the plums and I thought, "Yeah, it's plums. It's got to be plums."
Jessie Sheehan:
You say that this is best served warm from the oven, which is why you would probably pre-bake it if you're bringing it to a friend's house, and then, reheat it before you served it. And I love the way you write this, "while the juices still have a little movement," and I love that way of articulating it. You can totally prep this beforehand and pop it into the oven while...
And again, I love this. I'm going to just pull out all the lovely British things like, you say, "You'll pull it out of the oven while still on savory," which to us would mean, while still eating dinner.
I wondered about that because the biscuit dough wouldn't get soggy if it was sitting on the fruit, or are you saying you've already pre-baked it and then you're just putting it in?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, so sometimes, I'd already pre-bake it, bake it at home and then take over and then just warm it through. But you could definitely also make it ahead of time where they're not baked and put it on. And then, if you keep it in the fridge, the biscuits still stay quite cold and then just straight into the oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. So we're going to preheat our oven to 375 Fahrenheit, which is?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I know 350 is 160, so 375 must be about 170 C, Celsius.
Jessie Sheehan:
And that was not a test.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No, it's fine. You don't mean 350.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I was like, "Oh, hey, Benjamina." So we're going to add super fine or castor sugar. So two questions. First of all, remind us what castor sugar is and why? Is this always in all British baking that the sugar is going to be super fine? Our granulated sugar is a little larger than your castor sugar.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah. So castor sugar is kind of the go-to. For just standard baking, it's just always castor sugar. Our granulated sugar is more coarse than your granulated sugar, so it's just not great at dissolving, so castor is our regular, but for recipes like this, if you're in the US, your granulated sugar is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's going to be fine.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's fine, you don't have to go and buy a special kind of sugar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So we're going to add some castor sugar or some regular sugar to some tarragon that's been destemmed?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes. So I just pop off the stems.
Jessie Sheehan:
Pop off the leaves. Put them in with the castor sugar. We're going to add that to a food processor and we're going to blitz it briefly to break down that tarragon. Now I wondered, when I'm using like an herb with sugar or if I'm using lemon zest with sugar, I use my fingers to rub it into the sugar just to like activate the oils and to make it more flavorful and more fragrant. Is that what we're doing here with the food processor?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Pretty similar. And then, it just also evenly distributes all the bits of tarragon into it as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love it. It must be so pretty too.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's gorgeous.
Jessie Sheehan:
Does the sugar turn kind of green?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, it's very pretty.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love, love, love. Now we're going to add some small plums. And is there... I don't even know what we call them here, but we have like these kind of, almost oblong-shaped plums that are purple. What should I be picturing? Are you using sort of round red-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, our plums, usually, like the ones you'd just get anywhere, rounder, not so much oblong. Yeah, like a red skin and a nice like yellowy inside or sometimes a darker red inside.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, those are so pretty.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
They're delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have those too, I just wasn't sure when you said small plum, which one you're referring to. So we're going to add some small plums, some vanilla bean paste. I had two questions. Is there a brand of vanilla bean paste that you love? And if we don't have it, is it okay to use extract?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So always okay to use extract. I just prefer the paste because just I love the speckles and the flavor. And I normally just use Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, that's my go-to.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And we're going to add these plums and the vanilla bean paste to a baking dish. Is there a particular type or brand that you would love to?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Not so much. Anything that you think is nice and pretty because that's the one you're going to serve it in.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Nice. Nice. And do you prefer ceramic to something metal or would both work?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Both would work. For something like this, I probably just tend to go for ceramic just because it's nice like from the oven to the table kind of dish.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to spoon that tarragon sugar that we just made on top of the plums and then mix them up until the plums are coated. Would we use our hands at this point?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
You could definitely use hands or spoon. If you want to just get... It's nice to kind of get in there and massage it in a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm always saying your hands are the best tool-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
There are very handy.
Jessie Sheehan:
... in the kitchen. I know it's a cliche, but-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
But it is true.
Jessie Sheehan:
... it's so true. It's true. And they are handy.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to drizzle with a little water. Why do we drizzle with water?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So when I first was testing this and just put it straight in, a lot of the sugar just started to kind of burn on the edges a bit before the plums had time to release their own juices. And so, the water just kind of helped dissolve a bit of that sugar before it started to burn.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, nice. Nice. So we drizzle with a little water, then we're going to cover the pan loosely with foil. And we're going to bake in the oven for about 20 minutes until the plums have started to soften and release some of their juices. So a couple of questions. First, why do we do this? Why couldn't we just have the raw plums with the sugar, put the biscuit dough on top and bake the whole thing together?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
For some cobblers, you do, you would do that. When I was testing it, I found the plums didn't break down as much and I wanted a really like jammy, soft, kind of squidgy plum, and putting them in raw, the biscuit dough would cook and then the plums would still be a little bit too firm. So I just prefer something that was a little softer and jammyer and so, baking them first, it helps to release some of that juice and just starts softening them up before the biscuit dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Does it also, I wondered, preclude the need for, I think you might call it corn flour, like a thickener? If you cook the fruit first, like people sometimes will do a pie filling where they cook it on the stove top before they put it into their pie dough because they are worried that the filling will never cook in the time that it takes the pastry to brown, because we cook the plums first, I noticed there's no corn flour here, there's no tapioca, there's no starch.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or do you think a plum, in general, you wouldn't need that kind of thickener anyway to-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I don't think so-
Jessie Sheehan:
... thicken its juices?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... because they don't tend to be super waterlogged like some berries which will just release so much liquid and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what do I do with this?" So I found plums to not need thickeners just because they're not as liquidy or waterlogged.
Jessie Sheehan:
Like when you make your perfect crumble, which is without apples, do you use a thickener there?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I don't. No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No, I don't use thickener because I think, usually, once the apples cool, they kind of just thicken naturally and you get nice liquidy one.
Jessie Sheehan:
I might be guilty of always thinking I need a thickener when maybe I don't.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And sometimes you want a bit of juice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I know.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
A little bit sometimes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I know. I can sometimes be like, "Oh my god, it's leaking." And like, "Just a minute. That's the whole point of the dessert.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's okay.
Jessie Sheehan:
Leaks are good. So after about 20 minutes, released a little bit of their juice, softened. But we don't need to see any bubbles or anything?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No, not at that point.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then, we're going to remove from the oven. We're going to set aside to cool a little or let cool completely if we're doing this all in advance. And now, we're going to make the topping. And would you call these biscuits if you were explaining to somebody in the UK what a cobbler is?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
No.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Biscuits because we think are like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, cookies.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah. Like nice, little cookies. So biscuits, we'd be like, "What? That's not a biscuit."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Would you describe it as like a scone?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Like a scone. Yeah. Very similar to a scone.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to make the topping. We're going to add all-purpose flour and spelt flour. Why spelt? What is that adding to this dough?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I really like the nuttiness that it brought about. And it's one of those things that it's not compulsory. If you don't have it, you don't have to go and buy, you can just use all plain flour. Especially with the plums, just a bit of that kind of earthy nuttiness and a little bit more texture than just plain flour I think works really well. So if you've got spelt, definitely add it in, but don't feel you have to.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to add some caster sugar. And we're going to mix this together in a bowl. Do you have a special kind of bowl that you like when you're in the kitchen? Do you like a glass bowl? Do you like a ceramic bowl or a metal bowl?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I tend to use glass, just a good Pyrex glass bowl just does the job.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, I love them because I'm addicted to my microwave-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And you can just throw it.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and can melt butter and chocolate in the bowl in the microwave-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
... pull it out, add the rest of the ingredients.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And they've got all the sizes. It's just my go-to.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, me too. Love. And then, we're going to mix the combine. Do we mix this at this point since it's just dry ingredients or is it a whisk?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, yeah, anything really.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or a fork?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Anything you've got next to you. Just a quick combine.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you have a favorite kind of whisk?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Ooh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Like a balloon whisk or a skinny?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I tend to use just a balloon whisk because that's just my-
Jessie Sheehan:
Go-to
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Easy. Yeah. One hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to toss in some diced, cold, unsalted butter into this dry ingredient mixture. And we're going to use our fingertips to rub the flour mixture with the butter. What size are we looking for when we're done?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So it doesn't need to be super fine, but again, you also don't want really large chunks. So maybe the size of like maybe a pea, but it is fine if you've got some a little bit bigger and a little bit smaller, so a bit uneven is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sometimes like peas and walnuts, or something.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, peas and walnuts. There you go.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to make a well in the center and we're going to pour in some double cream, which is heavy cream. And then, give us stir to combine, with what? Like a spatula or a wooden spoon?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I normally use a table knife for this. I tend to always draw... When I'm making pastries or things like that and I don't want to kind of over mix it, I just use like a table knife and give it a quick-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, interesting. So you're combining the cream into the dry ingredients with a kitchen knife-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
With just a kitchen knife.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or a table knife?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, just a regular knife.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that. I also wanted to mention that sometimes when I make a scone or a biscuit, I will make it with just cream and I won't even add any of the butter. So we call them cream scones or cream biscuits.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, I should try that.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it takes the place of all of the fat.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
They are so easy, obviously.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I should try that. So just the cream?
Jessie Sheehan:
Uh-huh. I mean, obviously, you change the proportions because there wouldn't be any butter, but yeah, basically substituting the amount of butter you put in with extra cream.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I've got to try that.
Jessie Sheehan:
So good, Benjamina. I can't believe I'm telling you something.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I know. I love that. I'm actually going to try that. Just really-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's really good, honey.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So good.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yum.
Jessie Sheehan:
So good. And just easy. So we're not going to over mix. We want a soft dough, but we're not going to overwork it. Then we're going to use a tablespoon. And when you say tablespoon, because now we're going to be portioning the dough on top of the plums, do you literally mean like a measuring spoon? Like something that small?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No. So for this, I would say just a regular-
Jessie Sheehan:
Regular spoon.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Regular spoon you've got in your cutlery drawer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. Take a spoon, and we're going to dollop the cobbler all over the plums, leaving some fruit poking through. And it kind of looks, from the picture, it almost does look like separate scone type shapes.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is that sort of what you like? Or do you like them to be... I know that at the photo shoot, sometimes things get photographed that maybe were not always exactly how you intended. Is that what we should picture? We kind of want, for lack of a better word, like blobs of dough?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, no, blobs is good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good. Okay, good.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Definitely blobs of dough because I like it when it's a little bit separate, because they will spread a little bit when they bake, but it's nice when you can see... Well, it looks like a cobble, like a cobbled sheet. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Love that. And then, we're going to bake for 30 to 35 minutes until the cobbler is golden and the fruit juice are bubbling underneath. And then, we're going to serve the cobbler warm with ice cream or cold cream or custard.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Or custard. Personally, I don't do custard for this, but you could do custard for anything, to be honest with you, especially if you're British.
Jessie Sheehan:
But your preference is either ice cream or-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Or cream or cold cream for this.
Jessie Sheehan:
You know Claire Saffitz?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So Claire was saying, when she was a guest on the podcast, to make an easy crème anglaise, which maybe is, I don't know, actually, it's not too fancy for this, she takes really good vanilla ice cream and melts it in the microwave.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
So just pourable ice cream?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I'm intrigued. I don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've never done it.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you know what? Last night, I had some strawberry rhubarb crisp that I had made for a job and I heat it up and then I took the little bit of ice cream that was left in the pint, the paper pint container, I warmed it up in the microwave and poured it over. Oh, my God.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I am intrigued, but I don't know if I'm convinced yet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, well, maybe it's a hack.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, it's just if you need something, "Oh, let's just melt it down."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. But she said creme anglaise, which I don't know the recipe for that so well, but she said, actually, the ingredients are not that different from ice cream.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah. So custard is like eggs and sugar and milk and... Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I'm tempted to try it just to see. Just to see.
Jessie Sheehan:
I thought that was interesting. And then, in terms of a make-ahead plan for this recipe, we could bake it up to one day ahead of time and reheat in the oven before serving. I wanted to talk about a couple of other recipes from the book that I am obsessed with. First of all, white chocolate and rosewater mud cakes. When we say mud cake, I think people would think of something like chocolatey-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
A gooey and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, but that is not what a mud cake is to Brits.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No, but this is also Australian. Mud cakes are-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, you're kidding.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... huge in Australia.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell me everything. I'm totally obsessed.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, there's a lot of Australian-owned cafes and bakeries in London. Mud cakes are very popular. From my research and chatting to people, mud cakes are much bigger over in Australia. And they're just called mud cakes because of the density, they're just really dense in a good way, not like heavy and dry, but just moist. And the crumb is really tightly packed. And you make them with melted chocolate, and that's what gives it that nice, velvety, really tight crumb. So it's not a gooey cake, it's not really fudgey, but it's just that really nice, nicely packed crumb and velvety texture on this, just the-
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And I think I miss the mud cake memo that they're always made with chocolate. So this might be a little bit of a creative thing on your part to make it with white chocolate. Most people who think of mud cakes-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
You think-
Jessie Sheehan:
Chocolate.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... dark chocolate or milk chocolate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, totally obsessed.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yum.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally. I love the name.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
They're good.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then also, it's-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And it's not too sweet, because you would think, "Oh, a white chocolate cake," and there's a lot of white chocolate in it, but it's not sickly sweet because I don't like sickly sweet desserts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, I think you also said the rose water helps cut the sweetness-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes, just a bit of like fragrance.
Jessie Sheehan:
... of the white chocolate. And also, white chocolate is underrated. I feel like people don't realize-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, I like white chocolate. And I know everyone, "Oh, I hate white chocolate. It's not real chocolate." I really enjoy white chocolate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No, I agree with you. And also, the texture of this sounds incredible to me. And also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's, as you would say, one dish or as I would say, one bowl, it's very easy, right?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, it just melts it.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're melting chocolate, liquid and-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And butter and milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, adding-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Add to dry in a pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're done.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's very quick, very quick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And just yum. And it's one of those ones that does get better with age, so have it the next day and it's just have time to relax and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love, love, love. The other thing, totally blew my mind, chocolate and coconut breadcrumb cake, which you sort of say, well, I don't even know about breadcrumb cakes, that is not a thing, but you even say, "I would buy bread and turn the bread into breadcrumbs to make this cake." Which made me think that, often, people think of this cake as something to do with leftover bread, but you're saying-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
... just make it.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Just get the bread and then, make the cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Talk to me about that texturally. What should I picture here? Because it's a little bit of flour, but mostly breadcrumbs.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
... but mostly breadcrumbs. And I had this at a restaurant once and it was like breadcrumb cake and it had plums in it, so it was like a fruity one. And it was just such the most pleasant, squidgy, moist texture. And I thought this is absolutely delicious. And obviously, you don't taste bread, but it's more, it just gives it that really nice textural squidginess. In comparison to a cake, it's a little bit more crumbly, but it's just very squidgy, but in a nice way, in a moist-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. Like in a moist-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, really moist and squidgy. And the bread just soaks up and expands a little bit, so it's quite spongy as well. It's yum.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, chocolate and coconut.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I mean, come on. Come on.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, that's the combo, the combo. Then one more that just blew my mind. First of all, you're a cheesecake lover.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cheesecake and tiramisu, that is Benjamina.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you have this recipe, you have several cheesecake recipes in the book, but you have a no-bake sweet and salty cheesecake. First of all, it has Ritz Crackers on the bottom, which I... I really want to use an expletive, but I'm not going to. ... I really love. And then also, it is a spoonable cheesecake.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
None of that.
Jessie Sheehan:
You don't set it up in the fridge for so long that it turns sliceable.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
You serve it when it's still scoopable. Tell me everything.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I adore these recipes so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's a restaurant in London called Blacklock, and it's mainly like a chophouse, so lots of meat and do amazing Sunday roasts. And they only have two desserts on the menu and one of them is this white chocolate cheesecake, and they literally come to your table and scoop it and just dollop it in your bowl. And it is just so simple, but absolutely delicious. So that was the inspiration for this. And they use just regular digestive biscuits or graham crackers in the base. And it's really chunky, very homely, very kind of slapped together.
And so, I wanted to do something that was sort of inspired by that, but slightly different. And so, the sweet and salty, I mean, everyone loves sweet and salty, it's just like the best balance of everything, and was thinking about what I could use in the base. Originally, I thought maybe some salted nuts with biscuits, but the Ritz Crackers, I was like, "Oh my gosh, Ritz Crackers. I love a Ritz Cracker." They're salty and just buttery. And they go well with sweet stuff. People use chocolate and Ritz Crackers all the time. So that was what I did for the base. And you do keep them quite chunky. You don't blitz it till it's fine. So you've got really mismatched shapes in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because it doesn't matter, right? Since you're scooping it anyway.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Because you're going to scoop it. You're not slicing it.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're not trying to cut it attractively.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No. So it's very throw it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Forgiving.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Literally throw it together. And then, the filling is condensed milk, which I think is one of the best things to come in a tin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, literally my favorite ingredient.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Divine.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I put it in rice crispy treats. Have you ever done that?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, add 1/3 cup. I don't know what the equivalent in grams is. 1/3 cup.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
With the marshmallows and the butter and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Uh-huh.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, I'll do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Benjamina-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
I love condensed milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
... it is going to blow your mind.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Oh, that's clever.
Jessie Sheehan:
You get this milky flavor.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
That's clever.
Jessie Sheehan:
It stays softer longer.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Of course. Yeah, that sounds like me. That's up my street, right up my street.
Jessie Sheehan:
There you go. And oh, I was going to use one of your words, what I love about this cheesecake is it has movement in it.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes?
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And this is what I also thought was so interesting. So when I make a no-bake cheesecake, I use cream cheese, and then, a can of sweet and condensed milk. And then, I usually use, I think, a little lemon juice, which weirdly reacts with the milk products-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
And just helps to-
Jessie Sheehan:
... and gels. Yeah. So is this recipe... Probably the proportions are different, but if you were to put this into, I think you call them loose-bottomed pans-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... we call them springform pans. But if you were to put this recipe into a springform and let it sit in the fridge for eight hours, would it become sliceable or-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It would be a bit firmer, but it wouldn't give you a nice, perfect slice. It would still be like a soft set-
Jessie Sheehan:
So maybe that's the lack of the lemon juice, or maybe, probably just the proportions.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yeah, a little bit more cream cheese.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
There's not as much cream cheese.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because here's the thing about me, don't tell anyone, I don't even like cheesecake if it's baked.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Okay.
Jessie Sheehan:
Please still like me.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Do you like the Basque cheesecake?
Jessie Sheehan:
I just made one for the first time. I loved it.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
I loved it.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It is-
Jessie Sheehan:
Basque cheesecake. Oh my God.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
It's divine.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love the texture because it's kind of, gooey might not be the right word, but it has more movement.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Yes, than a regular baked cheesecake.
Jessie Sheehan:
... than a regular cheesecake. But this no-bake one, no-bake is totally my jam always. And then, this idea that-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Just skip it.
Jessie Sheehan:
... you don't even have to wait until it's sliceable.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
No, put it in one big dish. Let everyone scoop and serve. Simple. A bit of flaky sea salt on top. Done.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, thank you so much for chatting with me-
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
... today, Benjamina. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Benjamina Ebuehi:
Thank you so much. I loved it.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter for supporting today's show. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And tell your pals about us. Don't forget to visit cherrybombe.com for today's recipe. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu and our content operations manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie. And happy baking.