Camari Mick Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and the author of four baking books. Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
This week, we're revisiting our episode with Camari Mick, the executive pastry chef at The Musket Room, a Michelin-starred fine dining spot, and Raf's, a French Italian restaurant and bakery, both in New York City. Camari has been hailed as the city's dessert doyenne by the Michelin Guide and was recently named one of Food & Wine's 2024 Best New Chefs. She is known for infusing Caribbean flavors into her desserts, like she does with her tres leches cake that is served with jerk ice cream. In our chat, we go over all the steps to make this delicious cake. Stick around to learn more.
Today's episode is presented by King Arthur Baking Company. King Arthur's flours are some of the most beloved in the industry and for a good reason. Whether you're a serious baker or just a newbie, King Arthur's flours are not only the most reliable. They always yield exceptional results, whether in your professional or home kitchen. King Arthur also has a ton of resources to help you take your bakes to the next level. Picture this. Your bread's crust is too soft. Your cookies spread. Your cake is dry. What do you do? Call the King Arthur Baker's Hotline. They have professional bakers ready and waiting to guide you through any baking challenge seven days a week. Call 1-855-371-BAKE. That's 1-855-371-BAKE to try the hotline out for yourself.
I have big news for you. My new cookbook, “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes” is now available. This is my first savory baking book, and I'm so excited to share it with all of you. It features a hundred easy-peasy baking recipes for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and, of course, snacking. From sage butter scones to smash burger hand pies and tomato Za'atar galette. You'll also find six of my essential savory baking hacks, including how to make my magic melted butter pie dough and the quickest and easiest caramelized onions. My cookbook tour is underway, and tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com. Thanks to everyone who joined me in New York and San Francisco. I'll be in Chicago on Tuesday, October 15th and Boston on Wednesday, October 23rd, and I can't wait to see you. Thank you to Kerrygold and King Arthur Baking Company for supporting my tour. You can click the link in the show notes of this episode to order the book, or pick up a copy at your favorite local bookstore. I hope you love “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes” as much as I loved writing it.
Let's check in with today's guest. Camari, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk goat milk, tres leche cake, and jerk ice cream with you and so much more.
Camari Mick:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay! So, you have said that you pursued pastry out of necessity due to your voracious sweet tooth and the fact that your parents, who were great cooks, were not bakers. I read, actually, that you began this pursuit at an extremely young age. Can you share the story about applying to pastry programs when you were eight during a computer class in elementary school?
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that so much.
Camari Mick:
First off, I love that word use of "voracious." Going to write that down. Yes, in computer class, this is back in, I guess, the 2000s. There was just a time where you would have free five minutes to search the web, and I was looking up pastry colleges, and everyone was in France. So, I ended up applying, putting my phone number, putting my name, and they would call my mom, like, "Can we speak to Camari?" in a French accent too. So, she's like, "What has she gotten into?" but, overall, yes. I couldn't help myself. My mom and I would bake together when I was little, but she didn't know how to bake either. So, we were learning together, and it created a really strong bond, and it blossomed into my whole career that we see today.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible. Can you tell us some of the things that you baked with your mom or the first couple of things and-
Camari Mick:
Yes. So, we started off really easy with Duncan Hines.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or Betty Crocker-
Camari Mick:
Or Betty Crocker.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, the cake boxes, just the simple cake mix or the quick breads, banana bread. Especially when my dad was going on the road, we would make banana bread for him to take. He's a truck driver, so he would be away for a week at a time. What else did we make? My mom's ... She calls them "Mom's Donuts." It really wasn't us baking, but you know the Pillsbury biscuits. We would cut them out with a vanilla top and create a donut, and then we would fry them.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, baking sort of became this weekend hobby for you as you were growing up, and in high school, you were baking things and selling them, and you ended up studying pastry arts in Philadelphia, and partly due to your dad. Can you tell us what he said to you when you told him and your mom that you were going to be a forensic pathologist, which I absolutely adore?
Camari Mick:
So, he sat me down at a table, and he said ... Looked me dead in my eyes. He was like, "Are you sure about that? You like baking. You're becoming really good at it, clearly. Why don't you go study? Because if you do something that you love to do, you'll never work a day in your life," which is true. I feel like the amount of work we did put into open up Raf's and maintain Musket Room to hold our Michelin star, it is a lot of work, but I would not trade it to do anything else.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now I want to talk about Musket Room and Raf's, both of them women-owned and run restaurants in New York City, which I-
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... adore. And you are the executive pastry chef at both The Musket Room, which is the Michelin-starred restaurant in New York City's Nolita neighborhood, and then the more casual Raf's, which is a nearby kind of French Italian bakery restaurant, and you're also an owner and partner in Raf's, which is amazing. Congrats to you on that.
Camari Mick:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I love this story so much, but you were originally hired after the owner of Musket Room saw your donuts for sale on Instagram and ordered them, and this was maybe the beginning of the pandemic or a year into the pandemic.
Camari Mick:
This is the summer of the pandemic.
Jessie Sheehan:
Summer.
Camari Mick:
So, I did a pop-up at Maison Yaki for Black entrepreneurs, and post that, I was like, "I need to do something to keep up this momentum that I have." I got a bunch of new followers. I met so many great people, and I still had idle time on my hands, so I was like, "Okay. What do I do? So, donuts, I can fry donuts."
Jessie Sheehan:
Obviously, you and Mom-
Camari Mick:
Right?
Jessie Sheehan:
... have been doing it since back in the day.
Camari Mick:
Right, right? So, I kind of created this. What came to be now is the crème brûlée donut. What I did was take apple butter, house-made, brown butter pastry cream, stuffed that into a brioche donut, and then rolled it into a dark caramel, so it was ... be crackly and crisply on the outside, and I delivered them all over New York.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just one ... That was your-
Camari Mick:
That was it.
Jessie Sheehan:
But I think that's really smart, in a way, not to try to do too much.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. I was starting out. I was doing it out of my apartment in Brooklyn, and so, I was like, "I need to do something that's going to hold nicely. I'm not going to be wasting too much product and whatnot, whatnot." Fast-forward a couple ... I'm doing this for two or three weeks now, and I get a DM from Nicole Vitagliano. That's how I was taking all the orders, and I didn't know who she was.
Jessie Sheehan:
And she's the owner of Musket Room.
Camari Mick:
She's the sister.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
And so, she ordered 12 of them. I delivered them at her apartment, and then I get an email for Jennifer Vitagliano, saying, "Hey, would you like to come in for a interview? Yada, yada, yada." Say, "Yes." Musket Room, I've already known about it for a few years now, so I was a little excited to hear that they wanted to interview me. I get to the interview, and it's both of them sitting down with Mary Attea, and they're like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us who Mary Attea is, just in case.
Camari Mick:
Mary Attea is the executive chef and my business partner at Raf's and Musket Room. She's the executive chef at Musket Room too. And so, they were like, "We had your donuts, and we want to hire you." I was just like, "That's it? One carb sells me? That's all I have to do? Oh, bless." So, I was pretty much hired on the spot for the idea of opening a food truck that's going to sell all-day bakery cafe accoutrements and such. That's how I got the job at Musket Room.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. So, working at both Musket Room and Raf's forces you to be two very different pastry chefs. One is with plated desserts and maybe tweezers, and the other is much more casual. Would you say that one more exemplifies your dessert style than the other, and is it hard to put on two hats and have to do both? I mean, obviously, it's hard, but tell me how that feels.
Camari Mick:
I definitely feel like two different pastry chefs, especially almost like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde situation. One pastry chef does the night, and then there's one that comes early in the morning at 3:00 AM. So, it's just like it's a lot sometimes, but at Musket, I feel like I am more able to express myself, being that we are a globally inspired restaurant. So, I'm able to put my heritage and my travels, my personal travels into dishes, but, yes. I feel like I'm able to express myself a little bit more and be more authentic.
Then there's Raf's. It's still a honor and a huge part of me to be a part of Raf's because I am classically French trained, and then I worked in several Italian restaurants in early in my career. So, a lot of techniques and a lot of applications come very easy for me for French food and Italian food.
Jessie Sheehan:
It sounds like more at Musket room than at Raf's, but that you bring your Jamaican heritage into your dishes, instilling them with Jamaican and Caribbean flavors. I know that you like to use Jamaican chocolate-
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or Caribbean chocolate. I think you said it has a connection to your dad, yes?
Camari Mick:
Yes, yes. My dad is from Portland, Jamaica. He was born and raised there and then moved to Jersey when he was 18, and that's how he met my mom and such. So, I am working with a chocolate producer out there, One One Cacao. They do a specialty Portland blend, not in honor of me. I would love to think that it is, but it's not, and it's a 71% chocolate. So delicious, it almost reminds me of a dark milk, which is really hard to find. It's a fun one that I like, and so, that's why I love to use it in every application, and the thought of supporting a Black-owned small business, love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cherry on the top. Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Literally.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Well, so you have the Caribbean chocolates, also spices and fruits and veggies from the Caribbean, and you said that you begin with these humble ingredients, and then you elevate them to become extraordinary. Can you unpack that a little, like what that means for you?
Camari Mick:
Yeah. I think they're already extraordinary in themselves, for sure. I think I am just bringing it to a Michelin level and putting it in these applications that have never been seen before, or maybe they have, and I'm just pushing the needle forward a little bit more. So, being able to take traditional applications or traditional fruits and kind of twist them and mix them with my French training, it's the goal.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So great. You were recently featured in Eater. I think Eater asks, "What are your dreams, or what's future look like for Camari?" and you mentioned a community center in a food desert. Can you tell me about that dream-
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or goal for the future?
Camari Mick:
So, it would be so dope. I don't know how I would get this off the ground, so if anybody has ...
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly.
Camari Mick:
Hit me up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, slide into Camari's DMs.
Camari Mick:
But, essentially, I would love to create a community center where the focus is growing the community, so not only education, but being able to supply the community. So, I would love to have a community garden where we're growing fruit. We're growing herbs, vegetables, everything that can feed a family. And so, they come in, do their time with the community garden, but then, we also have classes to how to can your own food, how to be self-sustainable because you never know what can happen.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back.
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So, now I want to talk about the goat tres leche cake with jerk ice cream dessert. You've said this is one of your favorite dishes, which I love, but before we go deep into the recipe, I just wanted to talk about it a little more generally. You've said that the dish is like an ode to your Jamaican heritage, that different parts of the dish have different meanings ingredient-wise and also visually. I love this, that there's three different types of animals and their milks: cow, sheep, and goat in this dessert, and goat milk, specifically, is not typically an ingredient on a fine dining menu, as opposed to cow milk, which, yes, you would see. Can you tell us why you included it and how we should imagine ... I mean, some people, of course, have had goat milk, but explain to us sort of flavor-wise what the goat milk adds or how it differs from what many of us are used to, which is cow milk.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. Goat milk is very funky compared to cow's milk. It has a lot of those grassy, barnyardy flavors because of what they eat and what they digest. Definitely, a lot of people are opposed to goat's milk, but I say give it a try. One popular application that I love to use to acclimate people to goat's milk is making cajeta, which is also seen on the dish. And cajeta, all it is taking goat's milk, with 10% of the weight in sugar, and then a little vanilla, a little cinnamon stick, and boil that down, and you have a really nice dulce de leche texture feel to your goat's milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, is that almost like a sweetened condensed milk, but out of goat milk?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Camari Mick:
Right? It's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
It's so delicious. You can make ice cream out of that. You could just pour it in your coffee, pour it in your ice cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before we get into the recipe, can you just tell the listeners, most of them probably know, but in case they don't, what a tres leche cake is?
Camari Mick:
Oh, okay. So, yeah, a tres leches cake is a sponge cake typically made with flour, eggs, sugar, maybe some vanilla, some salt. The cake is then soaked with three different types of milks: traditionally, a cream, a milk, and a sweetened condensed milk. Poke some holes into it, soak it, and then serve it with whipped cream, maybe a little cherry on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
First things first, we're going to make this sponge cake. Tell people why a sponge cake is really what you want. Tell us why that's really the cake you want when you make tres leche.
Camari Mick:
When you make tres leches, you want it to be airy. You don't want it to be super dense, so you want a nice, fluffy sponge that's going to literally soak up all that liquid that you're going to pour over.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, first things first, we'll make this sponge cake. We're going to use evaporated goat milk, which I love, and goat butter. We're going to heat the oven, 350 degree oven. You're going to line a hotel pan, which is kind of like a home baker's 9 x 13 inch pan.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is that fair to say? With parchment paper, and do you not grease the pan? Do you just line it with paper?
Camari Mick:
Nope. I just line it with paper. There's no need to grease the pan, so you could save some.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Perfect, perfect. And then, in the stand mixer with a whisk attachment, you're going to whisk your egg whites and your sugar until stiff peaks form. Then you're going to whisk in your yolks, so you've separated your eggs. You're going to whisk in your yolks, and then you're going to alternate whisking in your all-purpose flour and your evaporated goat milk. So, is this something that you've made, or is this something you purchased in the grocery store?
Camari Mick:
This is something you can purchase in the grocery store. Whole Foods has it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to ask if it's easy to find. And then you're going to stream in some melted goat butter. Then you're going to, I assume, scrape the bowl with a flexible spatula, and I wondered if you're using those restaurant supply ones that are red handle-
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... big, white top.
Camari Mick:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love those from my bakery days, but I'm assuming if somebody was making it at home, you would just be using a flexible spatula.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you're going to scrape the dough into our prepared pan, and about how long will we bake it for?
Camari Mick:
So, everybody's oven is different.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Camari Mick:
I want to say 35 to 45 minutes, depending on the size batch and your oven, but one thing that you're going to look for is a golden, golden crust on the top and a toothpick that'll come clean through the middle, and that's it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just a question because I'm obsessed when I test cakes, when I test anything, to use really long toothpicks because I find it so annoying when they're really short. What is your testing tool of choice? Is it just a regular size toothpick?
Camari Mick:
So, I didn't want to say this because I don't want anybody to burn themselves, but it's my hand is my favorite.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Tell me what you do and what you look for.
Camari Mick:
So, when I start to see the golden brown on top and then the sides pulling away from the pan, that's when I will look into the oven. I'll touch the top, and if it springs back immediately, it's done. If you see your imprint of your fingerprints into the cake, then that means it probably needs a little bit more time.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you do that for everything you're baking?
Camari Mick:
Everything.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it always your hands? I love that.
Camari Mick:
It's always my hands.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Camari Mick:
I don't think I have fingerprints anymore.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, because the funny thing is I always want almost everything I bake to have moist crumbs on my toothpick or whatever because I hate overbaked cake. I hate all, but yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, but a tres leches, you can overbake.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's true. That's true. I know. That's why it's kind of brilliant.
Camari Mick:
You kind of want it to.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Imagine everything that we just put in here.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
There is a lot of flavor, especially using the goat milk and the goat butter, but all the rest of the flavor's going to come from the soaking liquid.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
So, you want to be able to absorb all of that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. I love that. So, bake 35, 40 minutes-ish, and then I think I understand this correctly, but I just want to make sure.
Camari Mick:
We freeze that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
We don't soak it yet because we're going to separate it for two different applications, like you said, and we're going to punch rounds out of them to get a nice, little log.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
Because that just-
Jessie Sheehan:
That's the shape?
Camari Mick:
That's the shape that we like.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
And then-
Jessie Sheehan:
And what tool are you using to punch out the logs?
Camari Mick:
Just a ring mold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, cool.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, log or more like ... Is it a circle?
Camari Mick:
It's like a-
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
... like a cutter. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you take the cake. It comes out of the oven. You put it in the freezer until it's frozen or it's firm.
Camari Mick:
Until it's frozen. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Until it's frozen, then you going to pop out. Love. So, you pop out all your little shapes that will become your plated dessert. Love. Okay, and I wondered ... I know that two of those little shapes are going to be treated like a traditional tre leche cake, and one of them is going to become like a pain perdu, which is like a, as you say, like a fancy French toast situation.
Camari Mick:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was that a choice you made just when you were thinking about this plated dessert? You're like, "I love tre leche, but I want to have more texture." I think that is so smart, and I'm obsessed with French toast. So, I love that you included it, but what inspired that decision?
Camari Mick:
Yeah, I wanted more texture. You're going to have a really moist, soft cake, and then you're going to have ice cream, so you need some balance. I knew what else was going to be in there, but you need some balance within the mouthfeel of the dessert. So, I decided to make a pain perdu. Traditionally, you would use a milk bread or a brioche to make it, but I was like, "Okay. Cake, why not? It should work, in theory, soaking up the same liquid and baking it."
So, we decided to make the pain perdu, cook it all the way through, but for service time, we'll microwave it a little bit, just to reheat it. There's such short, small pieces that it doesn't take much, and then we'll roll that in sugar and torch it, and that just gives it more flavor. So, essentially, the soaking liquid for the pain perdu is very similar to the tres leches, but not exactly, and torching it gives it that almost roasty, caramel ... I don't want to say "burnt" because we don't take it that far, but it gives you that over the fire-
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Camari Mick:
... taste to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, to make that pain perdu soak, and, basically, we're making a traditional French toast soak here, we're going to whisk by hand. And I wondered, is there a certain type of whisk that you like?
Camari Mick:
I love Matfer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
The black and the yellow.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Camari Mick:
I don't know who makes a better whisk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Brilliant. So, we're going to whisk by hand heavy cream, which now is cow milk heavy cream, goat milk. We're going to add some sugar, some goat butter, some whole eggs, some yolks. As I said, this is basically how you would make French toast. After we whisk it together, we're going to strain it. What are we straining out?
Camari Mick:
Just to ensure that all the yolks dissolved. We don't want a guest getting a really eggy part, so that just helps make sure everything's homogenous and that we're going to have the best-
Jessie Sheehan:
And sometimes, are the whites can be a little ...
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I find that, sometimes, that-
Camari Mick:
The chalaza part? Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh. Oh, honey, fancy word. I want to learn. What's chalaza?
Camari Mick:
Chalaza is the connective tissue between the egg and the yolk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God, love. Chalaza.
Camari Mick:
The-
Jessie Sheehan:
Next time, I'm going to ... "Oh, man! My chalaza!" I'll impress everyone in my family. Okay. We've baked the cake. We've frozen the cake. We've popped it out into shapes. We're going to take one of them, because this is for the pain perdu, and we're going to soak it. First of all, I wanted to ask how long, and I also wanted to ask ... So, we're not, like the way you would with tre leche, we're not poking it and pouring the soak over. We're doing like when you make French toast. You take the bread, and you soak it in the liquid, and then you sauté it or cook it over the stovetop or however it is. So, is it just a fast turn in the mixture, or are we letting it sit in that?
Camari Mick:
I let it sit in that. That should be soaked around 4:00 PM when service starts at five, and we'll get our first dessert ticket around 6:00-ish. So, that should always be soaked so it has as much time to absorb all that liquid. For the pain perdu, that can soak about 15 to 20 minutes before you bake, for the sole reason that that gets served warm. So, the soak doesn't need to be overtly dense in it, but it needs to be throughout it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to soak our baked sponge maybe 15 minutes or so, and then we're going to bake at 350 until baked through. And when you say "baked through," does that mean ... because it's already baked, technically, but just that the top looks kind of dry and toasty and doesn't just look-
Camari Mick:
Yeah. You just want the egg to be cooked through again and that's it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Camari Mick:
Especially, we're going to microwave them a little bit later, so they'll be fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So, we're not soaking by making holes. We're just soaking like you would French toast. And so, essentially, the pain perdu is kind of twice baked. When you're making traditional pain perdu, you're not twice baking something, are you?
Camari Mick:
No. For a traditional pain perdu, you can either bake it or you can put it-
Jessie Sheehan:
In oil, fry it.
Camari Mick:
In the oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.
Camari Mick:
I find that a lot of traditional French recipes, they do bake it. I think an American thing for us was like, "French toast needs to ... needs more butter."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, exactly, needs more grease. It needs more fat. And then, as you said, before serving it, it'll get microwaved for the first time until it's warmed through, then rolled in sugar and torched until caramelized, which just sounds so delicious. So, that's one of the cakes of the three that are on the plate when it gets served. The other two are traditional tre leche, and for this soak, we're whisking evaporated goat milk, heavy cream, sweetened condensed milk. Is that cow sweetened condensed milk at this point?
Camari Mick:
That is cow sweetened condensed milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
The reason I did that was because there was already a lot of goat going on. When I first plated, I plated everything with goat milk. I even subbed out some goat's milk in the pain perdu as well, and it was just like ... It was too much. It wasn't balanced. I decided to do regular sweetened condensed milk, but you can find goat sweetened condensed milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And so, we're going to whisk all of that together, and then we're going to soak the cake for an hour, maybe two hours. And again, this time, you're doing the traditional poking of the cakes?
Camari Mick:
Nope. They're so small that you don't need to poke them. You just let them soak.
Jessie Sheehan:
What should I picture? A bowl with cake floating in it?
Camari Mick:
No, we just use ... You know if you get takeout, you'll get a black box.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, we'll use those.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is the soak covering?
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Adorable.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I would love to see all these little cakes.
Camari Mick:
Just floating around.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, floating into delicious. Next, we're going to make the jerk ice cream. So, we're going to whisk cow milk, heavy cream, sugar, and dextrose. Can you remind us what dextrose does?
Camari Mick:
Dextrose acts like a stabilizer for the ice cream. When you're making ice cream, you need to make sure you have enough liquid/water ratio to your sugar so it blends properly and it freezes, and you're not either going to have an ice cream that doesn't freeze or is ... that's too melty or an ice cream that is hard as a rock, just overall unpleasant. So, you want to make sure you have enough ratio, and in order to get there without having too much sugar, we use something like dextrose or glucose, whether it's in powder form or syrup form.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it something we can buy online or something? And do at-home-
Camari Mick:
Yeah, I've seen it on Amazon.
Jessie Sheehan:
... ice cream ... Do at-home ice cream makers ... I mean, I make ice cream, but I've never put dextrose in it. Is that something I could buy and just-
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... put in my own ice cream?
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there a ratio of how many cups of cream to ... I know you're dealing in production, so it's a lot larger, but I wonder if there's a simple formula for this much dextrose to blank amount of cream or blank amount of sugar.
Camari Mick:
Off the top of my head, no, but I could send you a recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Sounds good. Sorry, peeps. So, we're whisking together our cow's milk, our heavy cream, our sugar, and our dextrose, and we're going to place it into a pot, in a heavy pot on the stovetop until it's steaming, yes?
Camari Mick:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Until it's about medium heat. And I notice no eggs in your ice cream.
Camari Mick:
Not in this one, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Sometimes you use eggs?
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
Some-
Jessie Sheehan:
What makes you decide eggs versus no eggs?
Camari Mick:
It depends on how creamy and how rich I want the ice cream to be. If I want it to be very mouth-coating, I'll add eggs, use cream, sometimes even butter, but if I wanted to eat a little bit more like soft serve, then I'm going to lean toward not using any eggs.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can I just say I love soft serve?
Camari Mick:
Right?
Jessie Sheehan:
So much. Like Dairy Queen, a twist with a dip is my favorite thing.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But, anyway, so while this is all happening, we're also going to be making a caramel. We have some additional sugar, and we're making a dry caramel. Can you just tell people what that means, what a dry caramel means?
Camari Mick:
So, a dry caramel, all that means is that I am going to heat my pot up to make it really ripping hot, and then I'm going to sprinkle sugar into it gradually while stirring to make a instant caramel. The benefits of doing this, rather than doing a wet caramel, where you put your sugar in a pot, add some water until the sugar is sand, and bring that up to the proper temperature, is the fact that I know what color I want my caramel to be, and I know that I want it to instantly be a caramel and not a softball stage. It's time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Yep.
Camari Mick:
I don't have time to wait.
Jessie Sheehan:
You don't have it.
Camari Mick:
I don't have it. I just want to be able to make the caramel and then deglaze and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome.
Camari Mick:
... I'm eliminating any water content too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome. So, we make our dry caramel, and then we're going to deglaze it with jerk seasoning, so I had two questions. First of all, is there a brand of jerk seasoning you use? And also, what are the components? And then, I also wanted to understand deglazing caramel. I think I know what you mean, but could you unpack that for us?
Camari Mick:
Yeah, of course. So, the brand of jerk seasoning that I love to use is by Brittney "Stikxz" Williams. She is a Jamaican chef that runs her own business called Nyam. Very delicious, and, once again, supporting another Black-owned business is what I love to do and why I'm here to do it. She makes her own jerk seasoning from the Scotch bonnets that she grows in her own backyard with her parents, so such a sweet story. We're really good friends, and I just love to be able to highlight Black women on my menu as well. So, in her jerk seasoning is-
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it something other people can buy?
Camari Mick:
It is something-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, great.
Camari Mick:
... other people can buy, actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, great.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. So, it is green onion, which is scallion, essentially, Scotch Bonnet, pimento, black pepper. I don't know the exact recipe because it is hers, but that's generally what's in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've never heard the verb "to deglaze" put with caramel, so talk to me about deglazing a caramel with the seasoning.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah. Essentially, when you are making stock, and you reduce it down, and you're making your demi-glace, and you deglaze with the wine or vinegar, what have you, we're doing the same technique with caramel. So, we're going to bring that all the way up, and we're going to throw something in there that's going to get all the fonds off of the bottom of that pot. So, all of the caramel that's on the bottom of the pot, we're going to deglaze with jerk seasoning.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, talk to me. The fonds are not burned bits that have stuck to the bottom. They're just sort of the solids, almost, that have formed at this?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, tell me that other fancy word. I've already forgotten the word for the thing that connects the yolk to the white, but I'm going to-
Camari Mick:
Chalaza.
Jessie Sheehan:
Chalaza, thank you, but another word you just said, like "de glace."
Camari Mick:
Oh, demi-glace?
Jessie Sheehan:
Demi-glace, yeah. Tell us what that ... I mean, probably all the listeners are smarter than me, and they know, but tell me what demi-glace is.
Camari Mick:
No, no, for sure. That is just a stock that you reduce all the way down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
And you're going to add maybe some more aromatics to it to get this nice, really nappe style.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Camari Mick:
Should I say "nappe?"
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, I love you dropping all the thing. God, this is amazing. I am assuming that means a certain-
Camari Mick:
Coat the back of the spoon.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yep.
Camari Mick:
Do a finger swipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, and then ... Yeah, and then nothing goes down the ... Yes.
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I do that with ... I like ice cream or a custard or something.
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So, now, we're combining or emulsifying the jerk seasoning and the jerk seasoned caramel with the steaming dairy on the stovetop. Is the dairy already hot and steaming when we add the caramel?
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
Yes. So, I did that because when you go to pour hot liquid into a caramel, the sugar's going to seize, and it's just going to be more annoying to dissolve that sugar again. So, you want to have something hot into something hot rather than cold into hot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
So, while you're whisking in, you're going to whisk in the liquids into your caramel, and as you're whisking, just making sure everything's breaking up and dissolving.
Jessie Sheehan:
And tell us why. I mean, I think I know. It just makes sense, but we don't want to put the caramel into the dairy because then we'd be scraping off the bottom, and it would be a mess.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, and that's definitely going to seize on you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's much better to put the hot dairy, just like when you add heavy cream at the end of making caramel, whether you did it ... Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. That makes sense. Now we're going to strain into a metal bowl. Is it kind of restaurant supply metal bowls that you like to use?
Camari Mick:
Yeah. A metal on metal bowl because metal is a stronger conductor than plastic. It'll allow it to cool down faster.
Jessie Sheehan:
Strain into a metal bowl over an ice bath and chill, and then you'll place in your ice cream machine at work.
Camari Mick:
I'll season with salt, too, right before.
Jessie Sheehan:
Hmm.
Camari Mick:
You always want to season your ice creams after they're cold because it's the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Camari Mick:
... closest temperature that it'll be to when it's frozen.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh. What a good tip, Camari.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. That makes so much sense.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, and then, especially if you're seasoning with acid, too, if your milk is hot, you're going to break your ice cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, wait until it's cold, and then add.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. So, now I want you to tell us how we now set out the three little cakes plus the ice cream, and then tell us the pièce de résistance. See? Now I'm using French too, of the branches.
Camari Mick:
Okay. Yeah. For sure. So, I kind of was thinking campfire style when I was building this. So, nuzzled in the center is going to be the ice cream, which is going to be covered with chocolate branches. Then it's going to be two pieces of tres leches. One is covered with a cajeta yogurt, so once again, including-
Jessie Sheehan:
Sheep.
Camari Mick:
... goat's milk, and now, we're including sheep's yogurt. So, there's your third milk right there. And then, on the other side is our second piece of tres leches, and then our pain perdu. So, our pain perdu is torched to order, so it's still warm when you get it. So, it's room temp, cold, room temp, hot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cajeta, that's what you described before that you're cooking on the stovetop, but I've also ... I thought I saw somewhere that you describe it as a yogurt.
Camari Mick:
We take sheep's yogurt.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
And then we strain the liquid out overnight. We add our cajeta into it-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
... and whisk it, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love, love. So, you have the tanginess of the sheep's yogurt and then the sweetness. Oh, I love that.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. And then you lay these chocolate Jamaican ... or you call them chocolate Jamaican branches on top, and I was hoping for two things. First, I would love to know how you make them, and then, also, there's a great story about why you put them on the ice cream. So, could you tell us about how you make them and then why they're there?
Camari Mick:
Okay. The branches are there because of the history of jerk itself. Jerk was discovered, created by the Moors, the slaves that escaped the plantations and went up to the Blue Mountain hills. With that, they obviously had to feed themselves and nourish themselves through food that they foraged around them in their surroundings and that would not give away their location. So, jerk started happening when they would dig into the ground, create a oven, of sorts, a smoked oven, fire on the bottom. Then they would put a layer of branches and leaves to put the meat, and then they would cover the smoke, or the pit, rather, so it wouldn't give away their location. And so, that's how jerk came to be.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that, so almost like the branches added this smokiness to the meat or the ... whatever it was they were cooking.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it also, the branches stopped the smell from rising up into the air.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I thought that was such an incredible story.
Camari Mick:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
And so, these chocolate branches-
Camari Mick:
So, the Jamaican chocolate that I use, the Portland 71, we take it. We temper it, and we have an ice bath of water. Once we feel like the temperature of the ice bath has reached its lowest, we'll take the ice out, and then that piping bag of chocolate, we'll just spray into it. Let it set for 20 seconds and take it out. Put it on paper towels and let them air dry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is that a Camari-invented technique?
Camari Mick:
No, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, that's what people do when they're making certain shapes of tempered chocolate?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
They do it into cold water?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Fascinating. I did not know that.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
It's really fun, and it adds an elevated level to anything. I'll put them on my chocolate cakes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
I'll put them just as a simple garnish for many desserts, and then, in this instance, it just has a greater meaning to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, and is it just a teeny-tiny pastry tip that you're using?
Camari Mick:
I don't use a pastry tip for that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you just-
Camari Mick:
You just cut the bag.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, like a cut.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Like a-
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... Ziploc bag. Just cut the end and do it.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And now, I wanted to talk just about a few additional recipes of yours that I was hoping you could tell us about. First, I read somewhere that rum cake is one of your signature desserts.
Camari Mick:
Oh, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about your rum cake?
Camari Mick:
Oh my gosh. I love my rum cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay!
Camari Mick:
It's really fun, and there's a lot of rum. I love to use Ten To One Rum. I love drinking it too, but it's so good in the rum cake. So, brown butter, sugar, which is just granulated, sugar, flour, rum, a little bit of orange zest, vanilla, and my secret ingredient, which is pudding mix.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, love.
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love. Talk to me about what flavor, first of all.
Camari Mick:
Just vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
Vanilla.
Camari Mick:
Just keep it ...
Jessie Sheehan:
There's so many great desserts that have a box of pudding mix in them.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Including people put it in whipped cream to stabilize it. Tell me what it does to the rum cake.
Camari Mick:
So, it just adds this extra pudding-ness to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
It makes it more moist. It makes it stay moist longer, and so, it just gives it that ... I love to say "grandma texture." That is that grandma cake. You're sitting down, and you're having a cup of tea with her, and you're just able to eat cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. I love that.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you serve that at Musket Room?
Camari Mick:
I don't.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, bummer.
Camari Mick:
No, no, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because that sounds so good.
Camari Mick:
We used to.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
We used to. During the holidays, it'll make an appearance.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
The next thing I want you to tell us about is your ice cream sandos. I feel like there's a ... or sandwiches, peeps, who are not in the know with the word "sando." I think there's a chocolate chip cookie with miso ice cream and a hazelnut macaron with a blackberry ice cream.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. The hazelnut one is my favorite, hands down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Camari Mick:
So, we just took our traditional macaron recipe, took out the almond flour, replaced it with hazelnut flour. So good. I think they're actually 10 times better because they lend themselves to be not overtaken by the sweetness.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Also, but I don't love macaron, but if a macaron had hazelnut flour, which is definitely my favorite flour, and also one of my favorite combos with chocolate, oh my gosh. That sounds delicious.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah. It was so good. I should bring this back. And then we made a blackberry glacé, and what's so fun about this recipe-
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell me about what glacé is.
Camari Mick:
A glacé is really the French word for ice cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
I know there's more to it, but I don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
But what's so fun about this recipe is that we make a sorbet recipe. I use sorbet stabilizer in it, and so ... Oh, I'll tell you the difference between making sorbet and making ice cream. We just went over how to make the jerk ice cream, which is very similar for most, sans the eggs. For sorbet, let's start with a sorbet syrup. You take your water. Heat it up with dextrose sugar, some acid, and your sorbet stabilizer. Bring that to 90 degrees Celsius to activate the sorbet stabilizer. Cool it down, and then you could use that base and blend in the fresh juice, fresh purees, anything that you want to use to turn it into a sorbet, and then you'll do that by measuring the bricks, which is another episode.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is sorbet stabilizer something people buy, or that's-
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, you can buy that-
Camari Mick:
You can buy that. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... online or something. Okay.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. That's not just a chef thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
You can get it online. You could go to SOS Chefs here in New York, or you could do the same idea with that, but changing your water out for a puree, and thus making it a little bit stronger.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Camari Mick:
So, we do that, and then we cool that all the way down, and then we add fresh milk into it, so-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Camari Mick:
But-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Camari Mick:
... when you do something like that, it definitely has a different shelf life because you're not pasteurizing that milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
And these ice cream sandwiches are things maybe you'd sell at Raf's in the summer?
Camari Mick:
We sold them at Musket during the summer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum, yum, yum. And the chocolate chip cookie with the miso ice cream, is that your chocolate chip cookie with miso in it as well?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, the miso's in two components?
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love.
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then, oh, I want to hear about the sweet potato bao bun-
Camari Mick:
Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
... because I think it's another signature, and it's based on a recipe of your mom's.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, tell us about that.
Camari Mick:
Yes. That's actually one of my favorite recipes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
It takes a brioche recipe, an eggless brioche recipe, and as that's proofing, I essentially make my mom's sweet potato pie, a little adjusted. I exchange some regular butter for brown butter, some brown sugar. So, I take the sweet potato, roasted sweet potato, blend that down, adding some cornstarch, some eggs, brown sugar, brown butter, salt, and then aromatics. And then I cook that. It cooks best when I steam it in the oven, just to cook those eggs and set it. Then I take them for the oven, and I'm just cooking this in a pan, like a 9 x 13 situation. And I'll blend that in the blender, and then I'll set it into dome molds, and I'll freeze it. I'll pop those out, and then I'll take the bao bun and put that insert inside, close it up, let it proof, and then bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Camari Mick:
And then, when they come out, we brush them with more brown butter and Maldon salt on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. It sounds so good.
Camari Mick:
It's so good when they're warm.
Jessie Sheehan:
When can we get those? Do those end up-
Camari Mick:
I-
Jessie Sheehan:
... have a ... Yeah.
Camari Mick:
I only do those for special events.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. The candied orange almond croissant?
Camari Mick:
Oh, yes. That is our Raf's signature.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
My business partners, Jennifer and Nicole, they are obsessed with candied orange. When developing the whole Patisserie menu over there, I was like, "I want stuff to be approachable, but I don't ... You could get the same croissant at every cafe, so what is going to make ours stick out?" I never liked an almond croissant. I almost was this close to not doing one, as a rebel, but I came to my senses. I was like, "We need a almond croissant." I said, "We'll do that, but how can I change it?" I always think it needed some acid. Overly sweet, it gets soaked in simple syrup, piped with frangipane, and then dusted with more sugar. So, I was like, "We're not doing that. We need to change this somehow. We need to break the curse of the almond croissant." Not to mention, they're always smashed.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Camari Mick:
So, for our almond croissant, we soak it in the syrup, but it's in saline. It's a seasoned syrup, so it has a ton of acid, tons of lemon juice, a little bit of orange juice and salt and vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
And so, does that mean no sugar?
Camari Mick:
No, it has sugar in it as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, okay.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah. It has sugar in it as well, but it's not just a one-to-one sugar. We balance it out with salt and acid. We'll soak all croissants, but not ruining the lamination. We'll brush our syrup on it. We'll pipe our house frangipane, butter, sugar, eggs, cornstarch, almonds, and then we'll bake those. Put the top on. We'll bake it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, when you cut the croissant, you have to be ... If you want to maintain the hump of the croissant, you're very-
Camari Mick:
Oh, we freeze them.
Jessie Sheehan:
There you go, freeze them.
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you bake? Do you use old croissant-
Camari Mick:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or you bake them fresh? Okay.
Camari Mick:
Yes, we use old croissants.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. I mean, not old, but ones that didn't ... Yeah, yeah. Sorry.
Camari Mick:
Yeah. Yes, we use croissant trim.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes.
Camari Mick:
So, we fill them. We bake them, and then, when they come out the oven, before we put them in the shop, they get that iconic powdered sugar on, right up top, right? Yeah. Not at Raf's. No, no, no, no. We grate Marcona almonds on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Camari Mick:
So, they get these nice curls-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, oh.
Camari Mick:
... onto them, and then we'll put a candied orange.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, and are you brushing them with anything to make them shiny or sticky, or the Marcona just sticks to them because they're warm from the oven?
Camari Mick:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Camari Mick:
And the tops have a little bit of simple syrup too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Camari Mick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting-
Camari Mick:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
... with me today, Camari, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Camari Mick:
Oh. Thank you for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to King Arthur Baking Company and Kerrygold for supporting this episode. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. And remember to head to cherrybombe.com for more information about my book tour. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.