Caroline Chambers Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine.
On today's show, I'm talking with Caroline Chambers, author, recipe developer, and Substack queen. Her Substack newsletter, “What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking,” has more than 165,000 subscribers. Yes, 165,000. I know a lot of you are curious about Substack, so you are probably wondering, how did she do it? We'll find out in just a few minutes. Learn how being a mom and a military wife shaped her career, the steps she took to social media and Substack success. And we talk about her brand new book, which is also titled “What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking.” It's Caroline's second book, she's very proud of it. And it is out tomorrow. Stay tuned for my chat with Caroline Chambers.
This episode of Radio Cherry Bombe is supported by OpenTable. As you may know, we've been on the road this summer with OpenTable, for our Sit With Us community dinner series, which highlighted amazing female chefs and restaurateurs in the Cherry Bombe and OpenTable networks. Thank you to everyone who joined us, and to the amazing chefs and teams at the featured restaurants. We kicked things off in early June in New Orleans with Chef Melissa Araujo at Alma. Then we headed to Atlanta, for an evening with Le Bon Nosh with Chef Forough Vakili. We were in Dallas, at Jose, with Chef Anastacia Quinones-Pittman. We had a sweet ending to our series at Nostrana in Portland, Oregon, with Chef Cathy Whims. It was such a treat, meeting so many of you. Beautiful food, beautiful people. It's been so much fun. Thank you to OpenTable for bringing these experiences to life with us. By the way, if you're interested in curated dining events like the Sit With Us dinners, check out the OpenTable Experiences on their app and website. Head to opentable.com/experiences to explore what's happening near you. Or use it to find fun events to enjoy on your travels, like OpenTable's Summer Sets. A dinner series that combines music and food to create one-of-a-kind evenings in cities like Miami and New Orleans.
If you love all things wine, Cherry Bombe has a special event coming up this October 26th and 27th, called Jubilee Wine Country. It's taking place at the beautiful Solage Resort in Calistoga, California. Jubilee Wine Country will feature two days of talks, panel discussions, a picnic lunch, a baker's breakfast, our big Wine, Women, and Song event on Saturday night, and lots more. Our keynote speaker is none other than Chef Dominique Crenn, and we'll have amazing folks there all weekend long. For tickets and more information, visit cherrybombe.com.
Now, let's check in with today's guest. Caroline Chambers, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Caroline Chambers:
I'm so happy to be here. It's the hottest day in New York City, and here we are, in a cool, cool booth. I'm so happy to be with you.
Kerry Diamond:
It is a hot day in New York City. Yesterday might have been hotter.
Caroline Chambers:
Oh, thank God I came today then.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Caroline Chambers:
I flew into Newark last night. I landed at 10:00 P.M., and it was 85-degrees still. I was like, "Oh, okay."
Kerry Diamond:
It sounds about right.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You are from Carmel?
Caroline Chambers:
I'm from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I should be used to the humidity.
Kerry Diamond:
An amazing tradition of female chefs-
Caroline Chambers:
Yes!
Kerry Diamond:
From North Carolina.
Caroline Chambers:
Oh my gosh. Yes, you know.
Kerry Diamond:
We can talk about that later.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah, we can.
Kerry Diamond:
Ashley Christensen-
Caroline Chambers:
Ashley.
Kerry Diamond:
Vivian Howard.
Caroline Chambers:
Ashley and Vivian. Vivian's also, we have the same book agent, and I'm obsessed with her. She doesn't know who I am, but I think she's so cool.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's go back a little bit. How did you get into food?
Caroline Chambers:
Sure. Like I said, I'm from North Carolina. I grew up in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. My mom is from Tennessee. My mom got really good at developing and creating healthier Southern food when she was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 30. She was always creating healthier spins on Southern food. I very much grew up in the kitchen, cooking with my mom. That was my first in.
Then after college, I went to UNC Chapel Hill, moved to New York. I worked in advertising, and I worked on food and bev clients mostly. Don Julio Tequila was one of my clients. I basically was in charge of running this huge food campaign, with all these really cool chefs, and pairings. Lil Jon was also involved. I went to a lot of nightclubs with Lil Jon. But lots of really cool chef people were working on this campaign with me. I was like, "I want to do that. I want to do that." But this is Instagram is just starting. We've got the Debs of the world, like Smitten Kitchen. There's some food blogging going on. I was like, "I don't know if that's for me." I just couldn't figure out what my in was.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you study in school?
Caroline Chambers:
International studies.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. What did you think you would do?
Caroline Chambers:
Well, there was a moment where I thought I would work for the State Department. That was quickly shattered. I kind of just kept going with it. I love travel. The international studies department at UNC is very cool, so you got to take a lot of cool classes. It was just a very liberal arts, "I want to learn about what's cool."
Kerry Diamond:
I think the State Department has a Culinary Corp, though. Do you know about this?
Caroline Chambers:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, yeah.
Caroline Chambers:
Wait. Actually, I do. Because I saw Jeni, Jeni's Ice Cream.
Kerry Diamond:
Jeni Britton Bauer.
Caroline Chambers:
Posted about it recently.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Caroline Chambers:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of folks in the Cherry Bombe community are part of it. We have to figure out how to get you connected into that.
Caroline Chambers:
I was going to say, that could be a real full circle moment. Okay, Bombesquad. If you know how to get me involved, I want to be in the Culinary Corp.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, so you're partying in nightclubs. You're marketing tequila.
Caroline Chambers:
I'm partying in nightclubs. My husband, George, at this point is in San Diego, training to become a Navy SEAL. We got engaged. We got married at New York City Hall on a rare day that we could both take off from work. He was in SEAL training. I moved out to be with him. Basically, he was like, "You don't like advertising."
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, you left New York.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You left your whole life.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And moved out to California.
Caroline Chambers:
Oh, yeah. Very young. We got married really young. I think we got engaged when I was 21. Married at City Hall a few weeks later. And then, he deployed to Afghanistan. We had a big wedding in North Carolina when he got back. I think I was 22 at that point, maybe 23. Then we moved across the country. My moves in my life has very much been dictated by the military. He's been out for many years. But even his post-military life, where we've ended up has been driven by that as well. So we moved out to San Diego.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any qualms about leaving New York and your career?
Caroline Chambers:
Yes, I did. It was really hard for me at first, as an independent woman who doesn't want her husband's career to dictate her entire life and career, it was really hard for me at the beginning to wrap my head around that. Then I had dinner with a SEAL wife friend. This was once we were in San Diego, so I was still dealing with this and wrapping my head around it. I had dinner with a SEAL wife friend. She was like, "You can either always be fussed by this and have a hard time with it, or you can just lean into the fact that this is not your whole life. George will max stay in 20 years." He ended up staying in about 10 years. And then, the world is your oyster. You can go anywhere. This is a very short, actually, moment in life. Also, what an incredible way to be able to support him, and also support our country in doing so.
I was like, "All right. What's the point of-"
Kerry Diamond:
Fighting it.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. Fighting it, and being upset by it. I just fully leaned into military wife status, and that went much better.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you cooking the whole time?
Caroline Chambers:
When we moved out to San Diego, George was like, "You don't like advertising. You want to work in food. Figure it out." Again, this is the early days of Instagram, food blogging. I was like, "I don't know of my place." So I wound up opening a catering business. Very fly by the seat of my pants. I started really small, and did my own culinary school by doing little birthday parties, and little dinner parties. I had always cooked for huge groups of people. It was always my passion in New York, in this huge, crazy apartment that I lived on on Broadway. We were always throwing huge dinner parties. I knew how to do it, but certainly not professionally. I started small. Then by the end, I was doing 300-person weddings.
Sometimes I'll wake up, and I'll have been having a dream about catering this 300-person wedding, and not having a clue what I was doing. But, the Bombe Squad knows, you just start, and you just figure it out.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm very impressed. Catering is not for the weak.
Caroline Chambers:
Catering is not for the weak. I think I am weak, because it only lasted about three years. When he got out of the military, we moved up to Northern California, because George went to Stanford. So again, my life continues to follow him around, but we got over that.
Kerry Diamond:
You were in Palo Alto for a while?
Caroline Chambers:
We were in Palo Alto for a while. I stopped the catering, and I worked at a test kitchen in San Francisco for a few years. The Culinary Edge. They do recipe development for brands that basically don't have in-house chefs. Or they have a lead chef, but they don't have a main culinary kitchen.
Quizno's was one of my big projects. We basically were in charge of fully fixing their back of house operations. That's a tricky job because you've got 14-year-olds in Minnesota, who have never worked in a restaurant before, trying to work the line. That's the experience that I credit with really learning how to write really good recipes because I had to write them for the 14-year-old in Minnesota who had never worked in a restaurant to be able to follow, and really execute, and do a really good job at.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest.
Today's episode is also supported by Pernod Ricard, creators of Conviviality. Pernod Ricard is a worldwide leader in the spirits and wine industry, and embraces the spirit of convivialite, as we all should. And is focused firmly on a sustainable and responsible future. Their prestigious portfolio of brands includes classic names beloved by bartenders and mixologists around the world. There's the Glenlivet Single-Malt Scotch, Martell Cognac, and Codigo 1530 Tequila, just to name a few. If you are a regular listener, you know my preferred drink is always bubbles, so I love a glass of Perrier-Jouet champagne to kick off a special night out. And I also love a champagne cocktail. My favorite is a French 75, which you can make with Perrier-Jouet Grand Brut and some Malfy Gin. That sounds lovely, doesn't it? To learn more about Pernod Ricard, head to pernod-ricard.com. Don't forget, always drink responsibly.
The new issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine is now available, and it's all about Paris, the city of the summer. Chef Dominique Crenn is on the cover, and the inside features our ultimate guide to female-fueled Paris. If you want to know what women on the culinary scene in Paris are up to, you don't want to miss this issue. We've got info on all the restaurants, cafes, bakeries, ice cream shops, boutiques, and more, run by the most interesting, creative, and dynamic women in the city. Whether you're visiting this summer or dreaming about a trip, be sure to pick up our Paris issue. You can find Cherry Bombe Magazine at your favorite shop or bookstore. Places like Fan Fan Donuts in Brooklyn, Parker and Otis in Durham, North Carolina, and Stella's Fine Market in Beacon, New York. Also, there's a special promo for the Bombe Squad running right now. Buy the Paris issue plus any Cherry Bombe subscription, and get free shipping. Just use code PARIS at checkout.
This job sounds so fascinating to me.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Is this company still around?
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was incredible. It was a really hard workplace. I was only female in the test kitchen, with five men who were all fine dining backgrounds. They treated it like that. Watchers of “The Bear,” I can't watch “The Bear” because it gives me PTSD. I worked there for a year-and-a-half. It was a hard, hard year-and-a-half. But I do credit it with really getting my chops in writing great recipes.
I'll look at my recipes pre The Culinary Edge and I'm like, "Oh, gosh. She did not know how to write a recipe properly." After, it's precision, military. It's total muscle memory, in my blood, to write it the correct way.
Kerry Diamond:
It was like your boot camp.
Caroline Chambers:
It was my boot camp. Yeah, it was my BUDS.
Kerry Diamond:
Because you didn't go to culinary school?
Caroline Chambers:
I did not go to culinary school. We were in the military. We were a young military couple. I looked at it, we just couldn't afford it. That's when I just was like, "Ah, F it. I'll start a catering business."
Kerry Diamond:
What came next?
Caroline Chambers:
Okay. I did my stint at TCE, The Culinary Edge. Then, following George again, this is going to become a theme. His intern summer of business school, he was coming to New York. I was like, "Well, get me out of here because I'm being The Bear, screamed at, and I don't like it here."
I had always side hustled. During catering, I was always side hustling, doing recipe development for magazines and stuff. During TCE, I was always side hustling. Coming home at night, developing recipes for little brands, magazines, whatever it was. I had built up this freelance portfolio, at this point. Enough that I was like, "Al right, I can leave this and become a full-time freelance recipe developer." I left TCE, I moved to New York with George for the summer. We rented this amazing, bizarre lofty thing in Tribeca.
I cold emailed Andrew Scrivani, who is an amazing food photographer. He shoots a lot of The New York Times' columns. I just saw his name underneath Melissa Clark's column. I love Melissa Clark. She's one of my big inspirations. He shoots most of her stuff for The Times. I found his info. I had a friend who worked at The Times, got me his email. Cold emailed him and was like, "Hey, any chance you need help food styling or anything for the summer, I'm here." His food stylist was in the Hamptons for the summer, so I got to just plug in and pop right in as his assistant food stylist. He's a photographer, his wife is the prop stylist. I food styled for him for the summer.
It was the best food media education. TCE was such an amazing boot camp education. This was such a bootcamp into New York City fast-paced food media world. I did that for the summer. It was such an incredible education. I reconnected with a friend from UNC, Sarah Smith, who's a literary agent and does a lot of cookbooks. She's at David Black Agency. I reconnected with her. She was like, "Okay, you're working in the food world now." I was like, "Yeah, I'm getting out of catering, into freelance. Let me know if you ever need anyone to test for cookbooks." That intro. She's like, "Would you ever want to write your own cookbook?" I was like, "Yeah, eventually." But who am I? What's my POV on food?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Who were you? Did you have Instagram, did you have a blog?
Caroline Chambers:
No. I was just playing with Instagram. If I took a really cool food picture, I'd share it. Maybe if I'd styled something for Andrew, I'd share it. I used it really then as a portfolio more than a connection tool. It was not popping off in any capacity, let's say that.
Yeah. I was like, "Yeah, someday.” I'd need to have a really specific POV on food. I don't want to just be another girl writing a cookbook. Yeah, someday. Maybe.
Kerry Diamond:
Amazing that you got from there to where you are today.
Caroline Chambers:
Sarah calls me a month later. We were in Bangkok for another internship of George's for a month. We're in Bangkok. Sarah calls me and is like, "Crazy thing. I just had a meeting with Chronicle Books. They are looking for a newlywed recipe developer to write a cookbook." I was like, "What? They don't have to be famous?" She was like, "They, in fact, preferred not to be." Because Chronicle wanted to own the process. Chronicle wanted it to be their book with a writer, basically.
I wrote a proposal. I think I was competing with a few other newlywed recipe developers. I got this cookbook deal. Which is, as you know, a really weird way to get a cookbook deal. I had no following. I had no presence. But this was 2015.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. There really wasn't a lot of pressure on you to do anything other than deliver a great book.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes, exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a big thing.
Caroline Chambers:
A huge amount of pressure.
Kerry Diamond:
You didn't have to have a public profile.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes, yes. I didn't know at the time how rare of an experience that was. I was like, "Oh, cool. Write a cookbook. Yeah, done." I think I had seven months to write it. Wrote this cookbook called “Just Married.” It still sells very well with Chronicle. It's at Crate & Barrel, it's lots of places. It's a beautiful book. That was my first entrance into the cookbook world.
I wrote “Just Married.” And then, I had a baby two months later. I had my first son, Mattis. I basically was like, "Whoa. The way that I cook, the way that I enjoy food, the way that I want to cook for my family has completely changed overnight." I no longer have time to use three pots. I no longer have time to stew something for three hours, braise something for four hours. Everything has changed. I came up with this concept for a next book, called “What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking.” This is 2019 now. Yeah, he was born in 2019.
I came up with this. I pitched it to Chronicle, they had right of first refusal. In this short of a time... From 2015, when I got that first deal, to 2019, this is when what you're saying of, “all you had to do for “Just Married” was write the book,” exactly. Now they wanted every cookbook author to have their own built-in audience, publicize it themselves, do everything themselves. Which makes sense. But the cookbook landscape had changed so much in those short four years that I couldn't get a deal. I took it to Chronicle, "No." Took it everywhere.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. So they exercised that right of refusal.
Caroline Chambers:
Oh, they exercised that right hard. They were so kind about it. "We love this concept, but you have no social following." I was like, "Well, you didn't care about that two years ago, what the heck?" It was such a different book.
Kerry Diamond:
Amazing how fast that changed in the industry.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
That is the biggest fear of a lot of people out there.
Caroline Chambers:
Totally.
Kerry Diamond:
That they have all this to say, and do, and give the world around food, but they don't have a following.
Caroline Chambers:
A following. At first, I was pissed. I, a real recipe developer, can't get a cookbook deal? I was furious. First, I rebelled. I turned off my Instagram. I was like, "I'm just going to be a professional recipe developer. Screw them." I turned off my Instagram, stopped posting. Then basically, COVID happened. I was like, "Okay, Caroline, this is your moment."
On March 16th, California closed down on March 17th. On March 16th, I was down in Monterrey at a food photography studio, working on a $50,000 huge campaign for Corona Beer. Needless to say, the campaign never aired. Everything went dead after this. For a freelance recipe developer, trying to get work in a global pandemic where people can't buy groceries, all of my jobs were gone. I was like, "Okay, I have all the time in the world to work on that following that they've been telling me to do."
Mind you, I wanted that. I want my own name in the food space. I wanted to be able to share recipes from myself. But I had this stick up my butt. I was mad.
Kerry Diamond:
A little chip on your shoulder.
Caroline Chambers:
A little chip on my shoulder about being rejected.
Kerry Diamond:
A potato chip on your shoulder.
Caroline Chambers:
A nice little potato chip on my shoulder. I was pissed from the way that the cookbook thing had gone.
All of a sudden, all these jobs are gone. I was like, "Okay, I guess this is my moment. I need to build that audience and go for it." That's what I did and that's when my career really changed.
Kerry Diamond:
You started with Instagram? How do you build an Instagram following from scratch?
Caroline Chambers:
Show up every single day, all the time, constantly. You give the people what they're asking for.
I was completely devoted to my Instagram following for a full year. I had maybe 2000 followers when COVID started. Friends, and family, and people I had picked up along the way from sharing recipes. I started just cranking recipes. I did this series called “Quarantine Kitchen.” I would be like, "Kerry, what's in your pantry right now?" I would do Instagram Live. "Kerry, what's in your pantry?" You'd be like, "Sardines and rice." I would come up with some amazing meal for you to cook, and I'd write up the whole recipe. I was working nonstop.
I had a one-year-old at the time, I was pregnant with my next son. I didn't sleep for a year, truly. I just cranked, cranked, cranked out recipes. I was like, "What do you guys want to see? What are you looking for?" I gave the people what they wanted 24/7, at all times. I really -
Kerry Diamond:
Can I just say, it doesn't sound like it was maybe the healthiest thing?
Caroline Chambers:
No, it absolutely wasn't. I think I slept five hours a night for the first year. I was posting recipes to my website. Doing anything to build this audience.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you just become obsessed?
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Caroline Chambers:
I became totally obsessed. It was fun, because it was pandemic days. I was just at the house, with the baby, with my husband. He works in biopharmaceutical, so he was an essential worker, so he was off. I was home with the baby.
For the first few months, I had a really difficult time trying to get these recipes out because I was like, "Nobody wants to see a baby in these. They want to see me, a professional cook, sharing recipes." I would try to fit it into his nap time, and edit it during his nap time, and get it out. What I quickly realized was I couldn't do it and I needed to just have the baby on my hip, or have the baby in the carrier. My audience really exploded and grew so much faster, once I started showing how I actually get dinner on the table, pregnant with a kid.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you think the message there was? Authenticity?
Caroline Chambers:
Authenticity. The first couple of months, I was sharing just food, only food. None of me, not who I was, not who my family was. Not this cool house that we bought in Carmel Valley. None of that, it was just the food. I thought when you start a business, everyone's like, "Niche down. You need to niche down." I was like okay, niche down. Quick, easy recipes, that's it. But I didn't have enough hours in the day to share content if I was trying to X my husband and my baby out of it, and have it just be this professional cook person.
I started letting them in, and showing people my son getting the eggs from the chicken coop, and what a disaster bedtime was that night. That's when I really started to grow, because people saw who I am outside of just food. It worked, and I now have a community who are so incredible. I feel like they really know me and I don't know them back, so it's a weird dynamic. But it's an incredible community. I launched my cookbook tour 10 days ago or something, and every single event sold out almost immediately. It was the coolest. That whole day, I was walking around in a daze because I was like, "What? How?" It's because I have shown up, and given them the types of recipes and content.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you finally get the book deal?
Caroline Chambers:
We're kind of still there. I started to grow this Instagram audience, really build it up. In December 2020, I think my agent, Sarah, came back. I now maybe had 20,000 Instagram followers. She was like, "I think this is enough, and they're engaged enough, that you could now get a cookbook deal."
I was like, "I have a different idea." This is when Patreon ... Do you remember COVID really popped off Patreon? All the Bon App people were leaving Bon App and going to Patreon. I saw that. My consumer is mostly busy, young families. I was like, "There's no way that my friend, Mary Pal, with three babies, is going to get on Patreon to check a separate app than Instagram." I was like, "I don't think Patreon's it for me."
I started to hear about Substack a little bit. It was still really early Substack days. Substack, if you're not familiar, is a newsletter platform. Think MailChimp, but you can create a paid newsletter. People can go on and pay a subscription to be subscribed to you.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have a newsletter before that?
Caroline Chambers:
In my five hours of sleep a night haze trying to build this audience, I had watched or listened to some podcast, I cannot remember what it was. That was like, "Your most important thing as an internet creator is your newsletter database." Instagram could change its algorithm tomorrow. TikTok could finally get banned. Every social media site, you can't rely on it as your income. But your newsletter, you know that when you send an email, it goes into their inbox and they see it. Instagram, you can post and you will never see my post.
I'd seen this, so I had started building a newsletter. I would basically just share, "Here are the four recipes I shared on Instagram this week. It's Easter, here's a roundup of five great Easter recipes." It was just a newsletter that had no real direction.
December 2020 comes around. I've been seeing Patreon, Substack. I decided to launch a paid Substack. First, I got onto the Substack platform, started sending my free newsletter from there for about a month. I started crafting its direction. No longer was it, "Here's a roundup of five soups. Here's a roundup of five salads." It was one recipe, a full recipe, that was exclusive to the newsletter that I sent out every Sunday. I did that for a month to get people used to this new format.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you know to do that? Because there weren't really a lot of Substack best practices.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Not had Substack started reaching out to you directly.
Caroline Chambers:
No, they sure hadn't. I just did it. I knew that people really had come to trust me for quick, and easy, and simple, and reliable recipes. When I posted something on Instagram, people cooked it, and they re-shared it. I would just post the recipe there, in the caption.
I thought, "Okay, I'm going to try to take the recipe out of the caption and say for this recipe, I'm sending it out to subscribers tomorrow." It's true. I billed it as this is a much easier, much better format. You can print it. Because, oh my God, following a recipe on Instagram, it's horrible. You're screen-shotting, you have to take three different screenshots of the caption because it can't fit on one page. I was like, "This is a much better experience coming to your inbox. You can print it. I got you guys." People were psyched about it. They were like, "Okay, cool."
It could be seasonal. It's Fourth of July, "I'm going to send out Fourth of July." No, this is December. "We're getting soup, we're getting short ribs." I was really working with the seasons, and making it something that they thought they had to go get. I did that for a month, really grew my audience that way.
One of my things that I did to grow my newsletter database was do remember, on Instagram, you used to not be able to have the swipe up link? You couldn't link anything unless you had 10,000 followers. Before I had 10,000 followers, I would put a question box. I'd be like, "Put your email here if you want to join my newsletter." Just because the easier you make-
Kerry Diamond:
You were doing it manually?
Caroline Chambers:
Oh, yes, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Caroline Chambers:
I paid one of my cousins who was an undergrad, so was out of school, 50 bucks to do it one time. Because it was so many emails. I'd post a sexy short rib video, pictures. "If you want this, put your email here."
Kerry Diamond:
I think people are starting to get a picture of you. You're very clever when it comes to these platforms.
Caroline Chambers:
Thank you. Yeah. Maybe it's that marketing background. I definitely feel like, especially in those early days, it was just guerrilla marketing.
Kerry Diamond:
But you knew what to say no to. You didn't do Patreon.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. There's so much that comes our way. I think that's why people are so confused.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Do I focus on Instagram? Do I do TikTok? Do I do Patreon?
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Do I do a Substack? When did the Substack work start to pay off?
Caroline Chambers:
I launched it, I did that month of free, getting them used to the new thing. Then about a month in, I sent out the recipe. I said, "FYI, this is the last free one. If you want to subscribe to support my work, here's how to do it." I always have 50 side hustles. I thought this was going to be another side hustle. I was like, "Oh, this will be nice cashflow, reliable." At this point, I'm still sort of a freelance developer, the work has started to come back by December 2020. I'm still a freelance recipe developer, that's how I'm making most of my money. I'm doing Zoom cooking class. I'm doing 50 things. I was like, "Oh, this will be a nice 1000 bucks a month maybe. That would be insane."
I launched. Overnight, I think I got 500 paid subscribers. At the time, it was $35 a year, which is the price of a cookbook. I was like, "Instead of a cookbook, I'm launching this as a newsletter." It's not going to get dusty on a shelf. Instead, you get a new recipe every week. I'm here to talk you through it, we'll cook it as a community. Cook it that week, that was my thing and still is. I want you to cook it that week. Don't save it for later. Try this new recipe now. 50 people are tagging me in it a day, and it creates this big momentum around the recipe. I got 500 paid subscribers overnight, whatever 500 times 35 is. I was like, "Okay. This could be a thing."
Kerry Diamond:
Great start.
Caroline Chambers:
I'm going to put some effort behind this. It's one recipe a week. It really just became my focus.
I think people, when they launch a paid thing, like you're paying me personally for my work, I think a lot of people, women especially, are afraid that they're going to turn people off. They're like, "Oh, if I talk too much about it, the people who don't pay me are not going to like my content." I just was like, "Screw that. If they're not paying me for my content, why are they important to me?" I always have said, "If you can't pay and you want this, email me and I'll subscribe you for free." That was never a concern in my book. If you're going through a hard time. I subscribe all military spouses for free, teachers. If you're going through something, email me and I'm going to subscribe you.
With that in mind, I am cranking. It's all I talked about for six months was showing the development process, showing my sons trying it. Showing—my husband does these funny reviews of it. He's the least critical critic, he likes everything that I cook. Everything I cook.
Kerry Diamond:
It sounds like Jeffrey. Ina's Jeffrey.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's Jeffrey. Everything he tastes is the best thing I've ever cooked. I just ripped on. All I talked about was “What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking.” I shared the link constantly. Or at first, that question box. Then once I got 10,000 followers, the link. I just didn't worry about losing people who were pissed.
I had a recipe go viral recently. It's this egg salad recipe that is from the newsletter. It was a two-year-old recipe, and I shared it recently, and it went super viral. The caption is, "Recipe on whattocook.substack." The comments are like, "You're going to post something and not share the recipe?"
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, people hate that.
Caroline Chambers:
People hate it! I'm like, "Yeah, this is my business."
Kerry Diamond:
We still have to talk about the cookbook a little bit more.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah, we do.
Kerry Diamond:
Because it's going to be out in a few weeks.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes, it is. Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
So you did get that deal?
Caroline Chambers:
I got that deal! It all came back around. I launched the newsletter in 2020. Basically, grew it. There's 500 subscribers, grew to we're at 20,000 paid subscribers today. I think 180 total subscribers, so including the unpaid guys.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, go back to that.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How many are paid, how many are unpaid?
Caroline Chambers:
I have 180,000 total subscribers. 20,000 of them pay $50 a year.
Kerry Diamond:
That is impressive.
Caroline Chambers:
Thank you. Substack has grown so much. When I started, it was really a newsletter platform. That was it. There was no community building. Since I have been there, almost four years, they now have an internal Substack community growth. It's making some writers mad because they're like, "I don't want to be on Instagram again." Now there's a social media aspect within Substack. It's called Notes. It's basically like a Twitter, where you can share your thoughts. But I just use it to share the newsletters.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait. Where is this?
Caroline Chambers:
It's within Substack.
Kerry Diamond:
Anybody can access it?
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Caroline Chambers:
Anybody can access it. What it's doing is really allowing growth from within Substack. For the first two years of Substack, I was really just growing by sharing it on my Instagram, word-of-mouth. You cooking it, tagging me, and sharing a link that way. Total word-of-mouth growth, and just via my own Instagram. That constant plugging of my own product and lifestyle.
Then they launched, probably a year ago, this internal recommendation system. If you have a Substack, you can recommend mine. Then when somebody follows you, it says, "Do you also want to follow ‘What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking’?" That has really been this explosion. I get 1000 new subscribers every five days or so. And 40% of my growth is from within Substack itself.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. How much churn?
Caroline Chambers:
It's not a lot. Yeah. I have a really high retention rate. Again, because I think I'm providing a product that people actually use. There's definitely those people who subscribe and they go, "This is the new me. I'm going to cook a new recipe every week," and then they quickly forget that it exists, and they delete it immediately. There's definitely some of that.
We really have built this community. There's a private chat function as a part of the Substack that I really like to foster. And have, "What's everybody cooking this weekend? Here's what I'm cooking. Oh, Kerry's cooking this, Ashley's cooking that. Oh, Ashley's doing this riff on that recipe. Share a picture." It's a really great internal community, there on Substack, that has grown in this, well now we can talk about the book, this community of supporting the book.
So in 2022, I had been growing the Substack for a couple of years. Amanda Englander, who's an editor. She's now at Union Square, she was at Clarkson Potter. She's an editor. She reached out to my agent, because she knew I was on a maternity leave. She reached out to my agent and was like, "Whenever Caro's ready, I want the cookbook. Basically, here's what I can offer. She doesn't have to write a proposal. I've already shown it to my team. The Substack is the proposal." Which, as you know, because you've written a cookbook, writing a proposal is hell. It's 50 pages long, you have to say what the chapters are.
Sarah and I, my agent, had been talking, "Should we do it?" But I was having all these babies and really busy with the newsletter. It just wasn't top of mind to write the cookbook.
Kerry Diamond:
You had pretty much shelved the idea? Because it was three years.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. I had totally shelved ... I had shelved it, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you think you would have one eventually? Or did you want one eventually?
Caroline Chambers:
Honestly, the Substack was growing so quickly, and was so lucrative, that it wasn't top of mind to write that cookbook.
Kerry Diamond:
Also, were you maybe thinking Substack is the new cookbook?
Caroline Chambers:
Right. A little bit of that. Then I would start to get people like, "Love you, love your work, but when are you going to write that cookbook?" People were starting to chirp about it, so I was starting to think about it. And also, there's something about a cookbook. It's why we love-
Kerry Diamond:
We love cookbooks.
Caroline Chambers:
We love cookbooks. Having that physical, I don't know ... I'm so proud of the Substack, but it's a different level. There's something about holding that book, and seeing all the recipes in it. It also just becomes the hardest you ever work, is for that cookbook.
My newsletter recipes, we work at really hard. I have a full team now, who edit and test. But, oh man. A cookbook, just such a labor of love. I think I want to be a cookbook author. I want to write a lot of cookbooks. It's so fun. It's so hard, but it's so fun. There's definitely that thing where it provides momentum, and something to talk about, and something to share.
I've never done a “What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking” Substack tour. But here I am, I wrote the book, and now I'm going on this 18 city tour.
Kerry Diamond:
18 cities?
Caroline Chambers:
Yes, Kerry. Yes, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh. I've never ... Okay, I've been doing this for a long time. 18 cities?
Caroline Chambers:
I know. It just happened.
Kerry Diamond:
You're like the Taylor Swift of cookbooks.
Caroline Chambers:
Thank you so much. That's literally, yes. The 18 city tour. I think because I've been growing this audience, and I have such a tight community-
Kerry Diamond:
18 cities.
Caroline Chambers:
People kept saying, "What about?" And I was like, "Okay, let's add one more. Let's add one more." I couldn't stop.
I know, my poor family. They're going to forget what I look like. It's going to be a while, of August and September.
Kerry Diamond:
How far is it stretched over?
Caroline Chambers:
August, September, and a little bit of October.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Okay.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. Two-and-a-half months.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Let's go back to Substack.
Caroline Chambers:
It's going to be great. Okay, Substack.
Kerry Diamond:
Because we've got to give people some best practices.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You did all that through hard work, being really smart and clever. I think people are afraid today, it's too late. Is it too late?
Caroline Chambers:
I don't think so. I've thought about that a lot too, because right now, Substack's really booming. Every single day, it seems like a new former blogger, or current blogger, or Instagrammer, or whatever, is joining Substack. It's really insane how much it's booming right now.
I think there's two ways to approach Substack. You either have an audience on Instagram already, or TikTok, or whatever. You have them already, and they support you, and they are your community. You can bring them over, and create a paid community out of that.
Or also, like I was talking about with the new Substack tools, I've seen, if you really put your all into it, and you make it consistent, and you make it a great offering ... I think consistency is key. I think a lot of people come to Substack and they expect it to just happen for them. You have to be consistent. I send on Wednesdays, and I send, it used to be Sunday, now it's Saturday. I send on Wednesday, Saturdays. And then I send a meal plan on the first Friday of every month. It will be in your inbox at 5:00 A.M. EST. Nothing will change the fact that it will be there.
When Substackers don't have that consistency, what are we paying for? A lot of Instagrammers, TikTokers come over and they're like, "I'm creating a Substack," and then you don't hear from them for three weeks.
Kerry Diamond:
After a while, you're like, "Why am I paying for this?"
Caroline Chambers:
Why am I paying for this? There's literally not been any new content. Or they'll come, "Here's my new content," and it's a YouTube video from two years ago.
I think you have to have a consistency of offering and a consistency of timing. I think those two things are key. If you're just a writer, you love writing about food, or lifestyle, or whatever, but you don't have a huge social following. I do think there's potential for you to really thrive with those things. A killer offering. You got to get the branding down, you got to get everything down.
And then, you got to work that internal Substack system. I call it, within Substack, flirt with an author who has also 5000 or less subscribers, and do a cross-promotion. Flirt with a bigger author, and offer to write. If you see that every Wednesday, they share “Five Things My Friends Loved,” offer to be one of those friends, and curate a really cool section. Find ways to plug into other Substacks that are thriving and successful. It's so easy. Substack makes it almost too easy to subscribe to other publications once you're on one. Get in there and work the internal system.
If you do have a following, you also still need to be doing that. Just come at it from both angles.
Kerry Diamond:
You've referred a few times to Substack tools.
Caroline Chambers:
When I say Substack tools, there's guest posting. When I went on maternity leave, a lot of awesome women came in and did guest posts for me. Basically, guest posting is one of those tools that I'm talking about for collaboration. Then, Notes. That Twitter-y, Instagram-y thing that I was saying a lot of authors are pissed about because they're like, "I don't want more social."
Kerry Diamond:
Do I have to have my own Substack to have access to notes? Or anybody who just subscribes can access that?
Caroline Chambers:
No. I think as long as you subscribe, you can access.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Caroline Chambers:
Substack has an app. It's not the best, but it's definitely there and very easily accessible. Then also, if you're on my Substack, you can click over to Notes.
But a lot of Notes right now, because it's a new tool, it's people getting used to using a new basically social media network. A lot of it is just authors flirting with authors, and just authors sharing each other's stuff. The Substack community is so huge now, of authors, that I think it's a lot of just inner-author chatting with each other, sharing each other's stuff, yada, yada.
I will go on, and if I want to flirt with some cool lifestyle person who I'm hoping they'll share my cookbook, I'm not going to just make a cold ask. I'm not just going to ask Leandra Medine to share my thing. I'm going to share three posts of hers over the next month. And then, I'm going to slip into her DMs and be like, "Hey, I love your work. Here's my stuff. I think this would really relate to you." Flirt. Flirt, flirt, flirt.
Kerry Diamond:
Substack is your job.
Caroline Chambers:
Substack is my job.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Caroline Chambers:
100%. Am I a food writer? Am I a content creator? I'm a food content creator, I guess. Substack is my main job. And now, my side hustle is brand partnerships. Substack is my main shtick. I'm also a cookbook author, so that's another revenue driver.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, an 18 city tour.
Caroline Chambers:
An 18 city tour. And then, brand partnerships.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you on TikTok?
Caroline Chambers:
I'm on TikTok. I don't community-build on TikTok. I share. I re-share my Instagram Reels. But I don't work the system. If I had extra hours in the day, I would. But I have three little boys, five, three, and one. I just had to call it somewhere. TikTok is my, "Okay, I just don't have time for it right now."
Kerry Diamond:
I think one of the most important things you said in this whole entire conversation is, "I don't community-build on there."
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
If you're not looking at your platforms in a community building mindset, it's not going to succeed.
Caroline Chambers:
There's no point. Yeah. You can post all your stuff. I'll have recipes go viral on TikTok, and it does nothing because I'm not there responding, chatting, talking to other creators, sharing. You have to flirt. On all these platforms, you've got to get on there and flirt if you want it to succeed. You've got to be responding to your DMs, responding to every single comment. Really, really building a community and getting to know those people who are taking time out of their day to follow you and comment on your stuff.
Yeah. I am a full-time community builder on Instagram and Substack. Yeah, TikTok's just a platform where I re-share.
Kerry Diamond:
I think the fact that you have an 18 city tour shows how committed you are to this audience.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. With the book versus Substack thing, not only am I so excited because I'm really proud of the book. It's my best work. It's organized by how many minutes each recipe takes. It's 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45, and then stick it in the oven for an hour kind of things. I'm really excited about the way it's organized, and the types of recipes, and just what a great tool. I really think this cookbook will sit on counters and make lives easier. Because you get home from soccer practice and you're like, "Okay, I've got 45 minutes, the kids are starving." Or you're like, "I've got five minutes. What does she have for me?" I think that'll be an amazing resource.
Then also, the fact that it's sending me out on this tour to meet everyone. It's been four years of really hustling to build this community of mostly women. Yeah, to create that community. I'm so excited to get out. I'm doing tons of different types of events. I'm doing some speaker events, and some parties, and some just signings. I'm really excited.
Kerry Diamond:
You touched on sponsored things a little bit. How do you integrate that into Substack?
Caroline Chambers:
That's a good question.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you put affiliate links? Can you have ads and sponsorship?
Caroline Chambers:
It's a good question. With my paid newsletters, I don't like to do ... It's like paying for Netflix and then there's an ad. You're like, "Excuse me?" With my paid newsletters, I don't like to do sponsored stuff.
But on Wednesday, I send out a newsletter. I have a podcast called So Into That. It's on summer break right now because, oh my gosh, podcasting is so much work. Oh, why didn't you warn me? Wow. Okay. Podcasting is also a full-time job. I basically created another full-time job for myself. With the tour, with my children home, I was like okay, summer break. The podcast is called So Into That, and I chat with cool people about things that we're into right now. I've continued that as a newsletter. On Wednesdays, I share a bunch of things that I'm really into right now. Sometimes it's interviews with people. Sometimes it's here's 10 things that'll make your summer better, whatever.
On Wednesdays, that is unpaid content. That goes to all subscribers. On Wednesdays, I feel comfortable sharing affiliate links, sponsored content there. Kosterina Olive Oil is one of my favorite partners. It's really freaking good olive oil.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a beautiful product.
Caroline Chambers:
It's a beautiful product. There, I will share here's what to get mom for Mother's Day. Here's my top recommendation, Kosterina. They'll pay me a sum for that. I feel great about that.
Kerry Diamond:
Right. It's a product you use.
Caroline Chambers:
This is unpaid, this is an ad. Also, it's a product that I really use. Brands want to be on the newsletter because again, back to that algorithm, every now and then, your sponsored content on Instagram just flops. By every now and then, I mean most of the time because Instagram sees that #ad and they don't push it to people.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Caroline Chambers:
It's really frustrating.
Kerry Diamond:
No, it's interesting. You see these people with gigantic followings, and then they've got-
Caroline Chambers:
500 likes.
Kerry Diamond:
Or 10 comments on it.
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You're like, "How is that even possible?"
Caroline Chambers:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you part of any of those affiliate networks? LTK?
Caroline Chambers:
I am.
Kerry Diamond:
I know that's more fashion.
Caroline Chambers:
Yeah. I do LTK. I do LTK, I do Amazon Affiliate. You know what, actually on my paid newsletter, I link all the tools you need. I found, just in my conversations with people when I was first building this community in 2020, a lot of people would be like, "I get to the end of a recipe, and I realize in step four, I needed a colander and I don't have a colander. It's so frustrating." I list all the tools at the beginning, and I link to all of those.
A lot of novice cooks, a lot of great cooks also, are “What To Cook” subscribers. But it's a lot of novices who are like, "What's a nonstick pan? What's a cast iron?" I link to my favorites, and those are affiliate links.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Caroline Chambers:
I do make a decent little bump from that.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. Have you thought about, in addition to sharing your recipes, sharing business advice? I know you are. You came on our membership meeting, you're doing this interview. I feel like you have a lot to share.
Caroline Chambers:
I get asked that pretty often. Right now, it's like TikTok, it just has to take the back burner. I would love to. Doing that meeting with the Bombesquad was so fulfilling for me. I kept having conversations for the next few days on Instagram, with people just asking me follow-up questions. I loved that so much. I love any time a woman wants to start a Substack, I'm like, "Okay, here's my playbook. Here's what to do." I'll have this conversation with them. I don't have the time in the day to do it repeatedly.
Yeah. I've thought about, "Do I record something with Substack, to share how I grew it?" It's definitely on my list, but it is getting TikToked right now.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. I'll ask you one question, because we have no time for the speed round. Our final is always if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Caroline Chambers:
Oh, Ina easily.
Kerry Diamond:
I knew you were going to say that.
Caroline Chambers:
Does everybody say Ina?
Kerry Diamond:
Ina, Martha, or Anthony Bourdain.
Caroline Chambers:
I wish that I had had a different answer, but it's 100% Ina. I had a roommate in college who was obsessed with the Food Network. I had just never really watched it. My mom wasn't a Food Network watcher. She recorded every single episode of “Barefoot Contessa.” Then we would cook them. College, nobody has money. We were eating scraps. We would pool our money and have these “Barefoot Contessa” dinner parties. Ina taught me how to cook. I love her.
Kerry Diamond:
Ina's the Bombe.
Caroline Chambers:
Ina's the Bombe.
Kerry Diamond:
So are you, Caro.
Caroline Chambers:
Thank you. You're the Bombe.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and leave a rating and a review. Let me know what you think about the show, and who you would love to hear from on a future episode. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.