Melanie Johnson Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Joining me today from across the pond is Melanie Johnson, recipe developer and author of the cookbook “Bundt: From Everyday Bakes to Fabulous Celebration Cakes.” Melanie is also a food writer at Country Life Magazine, and she's been writing the Kitchen Garden Cook column for over a decade. Melanie is an expert when it comes to baking with a Bundt pan, and she's been enjoying Bundt cakes since she was little. And joins me to talk all about them, including how great they are for beginner bakers and how the Bundt is the cake that styles itself. I love that. We chat about her early baking memories with her maternal grandmother in an orange grove in Australia, no less, about the best way to grease a Bundt pan and about how baking can keep you sane during the toughest of times. She also walks me through her easiest chocolate and vanilla marble Bundt with milk chocolate glaze recipe. You don't want to miss this combo, so stay tuned. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Today's episode is presented by Nordic Ware. Nordic Ware is a brand that every baker needs to know about. Their origin story is the stuff of legend. The brand was founded by husband and wife, Dave and Dorothy Dalquist, in Minnesota. Today, Nordic Ware products are still proudly made in America and considered absolute essentials in commercial and home kitchens, including my own, and the company remains family-owned. Nordic Ware is famous for a lot of things, but especially their Bundt pans. If you're a regular listener of our show, you know that a Bundt is a tube-shaped cake. Nordic Ware continues to elevate the art of baking, offering the very best for those who take their craft seriously. Nordic Ware has classic Bundt pans, braided, fluted, minied, leaf-shaped, star-shaped, and even fleur-de-lis. You have to head to Nordicware.com to see all the options. You don't have to hunt for the perfect Bundt. It's all right there. Everything is crafted from high-quality cast aluminum to ensure even heating for the most consistent results. Nordic Ware Pans are built for precise baking and easy release, which means a golden brown, evenly baked exterior and crisp design detail, to capture all those gorgeous glazes and ganaches you're going to be drizzling over your Bundt cakes. Peeps, one more thing. Nordic Ware is giving She's My Cherry Pie listeners 15% off any order at Nordicware.com, just use the code CHERRYBOMBE15 at checkout. That's CHERRYBOMBE15.
Let's chat with today's guest. Melanie, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk marble Bundt cake with milk chocolate glaze, and so much more.
Melanie Johnson:
Well, I am so excited to be here, Jessie. It is just the most exciting. I'm a huge fan of all things Cherry Bombe. I'm honored to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
You were born in Australia, but you grew up in the Austrian mountains and the British countryside, which just sounds so romantic and idyllic, and I've read about a couple of really perfect little early baking memories and baked good memories that I would love to unpack with you. Will you tell us about baking with your maternal grandmother or adjacent to your maternal grandmother? I think you were in an orange grove in Australia, and she was probably in the kitchen.
Melanie Johnson:
Well, my grandmother, she had the most amazing orange grove at her home, and she was a huge, huge baker. She just loved cooking. We never actually fully appreciated just what an incredible, professionally trained chef she really was. So she absolutely is my inspiration, and just seeing everything that she used to make. It was sensational, and I just didn't even appreciate it at the time. But looking back, reflecting on everything she did, she was amazing. One of the things that she made constantly was her marble cake. It was a constant. In her kitchen, you always knew that it was there.
Jessie Sheehan:
And was there also a moment where she would be making something in her kitchen and then, she would mise out all the ingredients for you in little bowls, in the orange grove-
Melanie Johnson:
Totally.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you could kind of combine them to make your own version of the cake?
Melanie Johnson:
She was so sweet. So obviously being Australia, so the weather is beautiful. So she would set up a table for me and my sister, and she would give us all the ingredients and she'd have them all there for us. Anything we wanted, we could just put it all into a bowl and mix it up and really have fun with it. So we would go outside and of course, we would do that. I mean, you can imagine the mess, we must've been making with cocoa powder, flying everywhere and all this, but it was outside, so no one really minded. And then, we would take our creations into the kitchen and then she would bake them for us. And then afterwards, she would produce them on the table and she would have her beautiful Bundt cake sitting there, and we would have our beautiful cake sitting on the table.
And of course, she was always so gracious, and she'd always say, "Oh my goodness, look at your cake. It's amazing." And so then it built in this huge pride, and I would actually believe her, and I really would think my cake was amazing. I mean, to this day, I still kind of think maybe my cakes were quite good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your sister might disagree.
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, exactly. I think everyone's like, "Oh my God, these cakes look terrible."
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that story so much. So your parents were in hospitality, or at least they ran an inn. Tell us about visiting the pastry kitchens of your parents' inn in Austria.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes, it was a really lovely hotel. And at the back of the hotel, of course, they had the kitchens, and there was an amazing pastry chef with a huge marble table at the back. I remember my father always used to take me out, so he would go and have a wander around the kitchens togethe,r and we'd be walking around, looking at all the savory food, and I'd be holding his hand and looking at everything going on. And I wasn't particularly ... Even though I am a chef that cooks everything, I wasn't as drawn naturally to the savory food. But by the time we got to the back and we would see this amazing pastry chef, and he'd be wearing his chef's whites in this beautiful chilled marble island, and then he would have all the ingredients out and he'd be making all of the Austrian Christmas cookies, he'd be making the Kipferl cookies with the hazelnut flour and all these different things.
And so, it just gave me such a massive insight into what being a pastry chef would be like. And I loved it, I was hooked straight away. It was just something I already knew that I had a natural affinity to, that I wanted to do. But my parents weren't actually that keen on me doing it.
Jessie Sheehan:
They didn't love that idea.
Melanie Johnson:
They didn't love the idea. They were like, why do you want to be a pastry chef? Why do you want to do that? And so then, I didn't actually fully chase my pastry chef dreams until after I worked in art. But it was just a natural progression. I was always going to end up being back in pastry. It was inevitable.
Jessie Sheehan:
It sounds like your dad was a little bit more ... I am not a crazy fan of this term, but a little bit more of a foodie than your mom. I read that sort of your mom was into the quality and the finest things, I wanted to know about your dad's soufflé omelettes, because there's something about that that sounds so delicious to me. And I also wanted to know about sort of... even though she wasn't a chef, the way that your mom inspired your eventual cooking and baking career.
Melanie Johnson:
Well, my dad, when he was very young, he actually worked as a baker himself. And he didn't do it for that long, but you can talk to him now and he'll say things about, "Oh no, the brioche dough has to be done like this" or something. And he's got this amazing insight just from that short time that he worked as a baker. And when I was growing up, you couldn't make anything without him interfering. If I made a cake or I made something, he'd be in the kitchen saying, "No, no, no, no, no, you haven't quite done that right. You're going to have to do this." And slightly take over, but he doesn't take over anymore, thank goodness.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good, good.
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, his signature dish would've been his soufflé omelette, and we ate a lot of those when I was growing up. It was just a very simple omelette really, but with the eggs really whipped up, with the whites whipped up and then folded through. So it would make this delicious, massive, puffy omelette that we would all then share, sort of a family-size omelette, but it was delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
My gosh.
Melanie Johnson:
Simple but delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sounds so yummy. And what about your mom? What do you feel like you learned from her, she taught you... or how she influenced you?
Melanie Johnson:
So when I was growing up, we had a really beautiful kitchen garden and my mom was in charge of that. So she was very into how everything was growing and making sure that we had all of the right ingredients to be healthy and just sort of the other side of things. She was more into the health of everything and the vegetables. And we had a beautiful berry cage, and we had raspberries and tayberries and blackberries, everything growing. And that was in England, in the country. She was very involved in that, but she was very natural. She was probably more like ... I don't know if you know this, but in England there's a restaurant called The River Cafe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course.
Melanie Johnson:
And they're famous for that. They just love letting the actual ingredients sing. And I would say my mom was more that sort of a style of chef, like she was into making delicious family food that was very healthy and really focused on really good ingredients. So I think I definitely took that on.
Jessie Sheehan:
There was a bakery in Austria when you were little, where you would eat these incredible donuts. I feel like it's an early baking or baked good memory for you, maybe stuffed with apricot jam and covered in icing sugar, pillowy dough. Tell us about those.
Melanie Johnson:
So there's a bakery, it's a village where I grew up, it's called Kitzbuhel. And these donuts were absolutely sensational. They're called Krapfen in Austria. And they were the most pillowy soft light as a feather donuts, I've never, ever tasted another one like them. And they were just so soft. You can't even describe them, and what they would do is they had a little bit of rum in with the apricot jam. And so, that really gave the flavor to the entire thing. But I've actually been doing research and I am determined to make those donuts. So I've been really researching exactly what they could have been doing to get them to that really ultra-soft pillowy state. I think I may have found it. I have to keep that to myself because I think that might be in my next book.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice. We'll be right back.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everybody, this is Kerry Diamond, host of Radio Cherry Bombe. Next up on our Summer Tastemaker Tour, presented by the Visa Dining Collection by Open Table and Visa, is Austin, Texas. We're headed to the gorgeous Commodore Perry Estate on Friday, June 27th, for an afternoon of great food, connection, and conversation. We'll be joined by special guests Sarah Heard, Tracy Malechek-Ezekiel, Amanda Turner, and Ale Kuri, some of the most exciting culinary talents in Texas right now. As always, there'll be delicious bites, a panel chat, and plenty of time to connect with fellow Bombesquad members. Access is available for those with eligible Visa credit cards. Terms and conditions apply. Visit cherrybombe.com for tickets and to learn more. We'd love to see you this summer in Austin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cherry Bombe's newest issue, the Power issue, is out. Now we have four different covers for this issue and you won't believe our cover stars: activist and author, Gloria Steinem, Chef Mashama Bailey of the Grey in Savannah, chef/restaurateurs Jody Williams and Rita Sodi behind Via Carota and more in New York City, and chef and culinary creative, Sophia Roe. If you're a subscriber to Cherry Bombe magazine, you'll receive your issue very soon. If you're not a subscriber yet, head to cherrybombe.com and sign up today to receive this issue, or stop by your local culinary shop or bookstore to pick up a copy. Now, back to our guest.
I know that you started baking professionally later in life, and first there was a pursuit in art history, but I just wondered if when you were a little kid, was it mostly just sort of enjoying baked goods that you ate or were you actually baking at all? Were you watching any food TV? I know on your website, I see Martha Stewart, and Mary Berry, and Donna Hay like, were cookbooks a big deal for you? Any of that going on when you were little, or not until later?
Melanie Johnson:
No, I was always obsessed with food. It was just in me. I just couldn't get away from it. And also, because I had such a foodie family, we would always go searching for the best things. So we would hear about something amazing. And then my dad would be, "Oh no, we've got to go there because they have the most amazing cakes you've ever seen," or in London, there's another ... it was more popular back then, but there's this cafe called Patisserie Valerie. And at the time, they were amazing. They had the best croissants in London. And so my dad would always be like, "Oh, we have to go there. We're going to have to go and get a croissant." And I did. I cooked a lot. I used to love making bread and everything. I used to do cakes and just everything. I really always enjoyed cooking.
Jessie Sheehan:
But despite all of that, despite your foodie family, et cetera, and your exposure to food via your parents' inn, you did pursue art history. You lived in Ireland, you had a beautiful kitchen garden, and sort of that garden was always inspiring, I think you to bake and cook and maybe help to make that transition for you, from art to baking and food.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes, 100%. So one side had my daughter and I was living in Ireland, we had such a beautiful kitchen garden and we grew everything there. So then I had all these amazing vegetables coming up to the house. And so you just couldn't help but fall in love with all of the ingredients. And so then, I would start looking at these ingredients and it was so inspiring because I'd be looking at them and thinking, "Okay, what am I going to do with those?" Well, how am I going to make them the most delicious feast that I can possibly create out of these specific ingredients? So then, that really was what got me actually trying to make different new things on my own.
I didn't actually want to follow someone else's recipes. I wanted to make my own things because I was relying on what I had right there. It was a time of exploring food, and that's what reignited my love for it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you went to the Leith School of Cookery, and we had Prue as a guest on the show. She is so incredible. I love her so much. What inspired you to go to cooking school? What did you feel like you needed to learn?
Melanie Johnson:
So I just felt like I really needed to join all the dots. So even though I was entirely self-taught and I had all the influence from when I was younger, and my grandmother who was such a great chef, and then seeing the pastry chef in my parents' hotel. So seeing all of those things, I had such a piecemeal knowledge, but I needed to bring it all together to make it one coherent library of information in my head. And so, it wasn't really until I actually went to Leith's that I was able to piece it all together properly. It's a depth of knowledge that you don't really get, otherwise, I didn't find. So it is just understanding things that like a custard base, is also a base for ice cream or it's just understanding how all of those things work in together. But it was so inspiring and so helpful, gave me such a different viewpoint on food.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you're a food writer now for Country Life. I love the name of your column, The Kitchen Garden Cook. Did you come up with the name of the column?
Melanie Johnson:
I'm so sorry to disappoint, but no, I didn't.
Jessie Sheehan:
But it's so perfect for you, just because of your history with your mother's kitchen garden and your own in Ireland.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love the name. So, tell us a little bit about Country Life for those who don't know, and then tell us a little bit about the column.
Melanie Johnson:
Well, Country Life is a very British magazine. It's a wonderful magazine because it has so much interesting content. It's not just about food, it's about everything to do with the British countryside. So it's got beautiful homes and properties, as well as small details. They can chat about something, an issue that's in the country, or it'll talk about sheep or chickens, or it will have special features on gardening. It's a really lovely, all-encompassing magazine. And what makes it also so unique is that both men and women love it. I can enjoy it. My grandmother could enjoy it, but equally, I could find my daughter flicking through and looking at something as well. So it really crosses all the age barriers. It's a very unique magazine, and it's been around for a long time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about the column?
Melanie Johnson:
Absolutely. So my column, I've been writing my column for 12 years now. I took a year off in the middle, but yeah, it's been 12 years. So every week, I take a seasonal ingredient and I will develop recipes around that ingredient. And then, I style the shot, style the food, and take a photograph. So the whole page is created by me from start to finish. So it's a really lovely creative outlet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it digital as well as in print?
Melanie Johnson:
Digital as well as in print, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So nice.
Melanie Johnson:
You can see all my recipes from the last 12 years on there. But it's quite funny because when I sometimes look back, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, they've got photographs that I took 12 years ago and I'm not quite as proud of those ones."
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, I can relate. I also learned from your website that you are a breast cancer survivor, and I am as well. There's a long article on your website that's fascinating. I hope people will go and find it and read it about your experience and how baking helped you get through it. But, my gosh, you were writing the column, you just had a little girl. You were newly divorced, there was so much going on when you were diagnosed, and were you also writing the book?
Melanie Johnson:
Well, the book luckily came slightly after.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Good.
Melanie Johnson:
That was more when I was recovering.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good, but you had a full plate.
Melanie Johnson:
But I mean, as you'll know yourself, it takes a lot longer to recover than you think.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know.
Melanie Johnson:
You finished the treatment, your hair starts growing back, and then you start thinking, "Oh, I'm fine now."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
And then, it does take a long time after that. It takes, I think, at least a couple of years to really feel yourself again.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, agree.
Melanie Johnson:
But I'd really found ... So when I was doing chemo, I found it really tough to find joy in anything, because nothing material can make you happy. It's just difficult to find pleasure in anything. And so, I found flowers, they really made me feel happy. And then, the other thing was actually baking because ... But it wasn't cooking as in making savory dishes. It was really, this is why I wrote the book about Bundts, was because what I loved was you could take just an array of ingredients, a little bit. Like when I was cooking in my grandmother's orange grove. You take a bunch of ingredients, you put them together, you pour them into a Bundt tin, and suddenly, even an ordinary vanilla sponge cake, you can just then turn it out and you have the most beautiful Bundt cake that will just be such a joy to have and to share it with people that you love.
And for me, at that time, that was more important than anything. That was everything to me. And so, that was why I just suddenly thought, I have to write a book about Bundts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I didn't work during chemo, but when chemo ended, I went back to my bakery job and I just found it so distracting in the best way to just be at work and making sweets and being in... I always loved the decorator's part of the kitchen where all of the sprinkles are, and I was just like... Everything thought, "Oh my gosh, this is what I need right now."
Melanie Johnson:
Totally. It's something really simple-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah-
Melanie Johnson:
But so honest.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah. It was everything.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to talk about the cookbook. It's called “Bundt, 120 Recipes for Every Occasion.” And I love that you write that Bundts, they're cakes that style themselves. What is a cake that styles itself?
Melanie Johnson:
Well, they're just so beautiful. They're so sculptural and stunning that literally you can take what could be just a very boring cake in a regular round tin, and all you have to do is pour it into a Bundt tin instead. And suddenly you've got this sculptural beauty that looks like you've spent hours and hours and literally you can just dust some icing sugar on top and you've got a creation. I mean, especially for people that aren't massively into cooking, I think it's such a beautiful way of creating something that you can be so proud to share.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you really feel like sort of any layer cake you were going to make, or any sheet cake you were going to make that batter should be able to work in a Bundt pan?
Melanie Johnson:
It does depend. It's not, I wouldn't say, 100% across the board-
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Melanie Johnson:
But for most pound cake-based cakes, they will work in a Bundt tin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
And equally, all of the cakes in my book, they will also all work in a loaf tin. If you just want to put them, cook them in a loaf pan, that will also work, but they're not going to be as beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I also love that you say that because a Bundt pan has a hole, you never have to worry about a Bundt cake sinking.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly. You're never going to have a big dipped cake. It's already got a hole.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you also say the Bundts are also perfect for beginners. And I just added a note, if you can get them out of the pan, because that's an art in and of itself that we're going to talk about. I think that's what scares people. As you said sort of earlier in our conversation, you grew up with Bundts. Bundts were sort of part of your childhood just because of your grandmother, correct?
Melanie Johnson:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
She would always have one in her kitchen. And then, it was obviously then when she wasn't around anymore. And in Austria, I would always go in and any sort of coffee shop would always have a cake stand right by the counter, and there'd be a beautiful Bundt cake, big marble cake in there. And I would just always think of her, just always look at that and go, "Oh yeah, that's exactly what my grandmother would make." And food is memory, isn't it? Food brings so much memory and tradition and family and what's passed down. It's such a simple concept, but yeah, from my grandmother to me, and now I'm making them for my daughter, and I'm sure that my daughter will make them for her children too. So it just shows that path.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nordic Ware plays a role in your book because you're using Nordic Ware Bundt pans. Did you approach them when you were writing the book? It doesn't sound like they asked you to write the book, because you already had the idea, but how did that collaboration happen?
Melanie Johnson:
Nordic Ware in the U.K. is run by this really lovely woman called Pauline. And because I'm on Instagram, Pauline would just send me different tins as gifts so that I would use them for Instagram. And so then she was sending me all sorts of tins and they would arrive and I'd be like, "Oh my God, this is so amazing. Look at this beautiful tin that I've been sent." And so then, I would use them. And then as I was slowly progressing, then when I had cancer and I was making my Bundt cakes, and then suddenly, I just started looking and thinking, "Oh, I really want to write a book on Bundts." And then I just thought, well, if I'm writing a book on Bundts, I'm going to ask Nordic Ware to send me even more tins so that I can use them.
And so then it just sort of started that way. So I actually then said to them, "Oh, I'm actually thinking of writing a book about Bundts. Will you send me some more tins?" And then they were like, "Of course we will. Of course we will." I don't actually know how the conversation even came about, but then we were like, yes, we'll just collaborate. And then-
Jessie Sheehan:
So great.
Melanie Johnson:
I put them in touch with the publisher, and it just all sort of happened.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so great. And did that help in it having its U.S. release, the Nordic Ware connection?
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Nordic Ware sells the book on their website and in their shop, which has got to be a good thing. But also, I think what's slightly frustrating for me is that having always grown up with these cakes. In England, you do get a lot of people that go, what's a Bundt? What is a Bundt? And I'm like the cake with a hole in the middle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
Whereas I think in America, most people know what a Bundt cake is.
Jessie Sheehan:
Everybody. Yep. I wanted to share some of your Bundt cake tips before we dive into the recipe. The first and most important is you really do have to grease your pan well, and you have to let the cake sit in the pan for 10 minutes after you bake it. I think people run into trouble if they try to release too early or they try to release too late.
Melanie Johnson:
I agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to ask you if you ever use this thing that many of us call goop, and then I found a recipe for it at the end of the book, which is basically combining flour and oil and shortening and sort of making your own homemade cake release. Do you use that frequently or is that something ... I think I read that you use it when you sort of run out of a cake relief spray, or does Melanie always have a jar of goop, as we call it, sitting on the counter?
Melanie Johnson:
I do have a jar of goop, and there's nothing quite like it. It is the most reliable release for a Bundt cake, in my opinion.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yeah, no, I love it too.
Melanie Johnson:
I just love it. It just makes life so much easier. It really solves all problems. And then every so often, I will make a cake and I have to confess, sometimes they won't come out and there is nothing more defeating than that. That moment when you have put all your ingredients and love into your Bundt tin and then you turn it out and it doesn't work, but at the same time, it's almost what makes them so special. So then when they do come out and they're perfect, it's just even more of a joy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Melanie Johnson:
I mean, I don't have that many fails with them. It's normally, if I've done something stupid, like I've run out of goop and I've run out of spray and I've done something ridiculous-
Jessie Sheehan:
I understand.
Melanie Johnson:
It's normally my fault.
Jessie Sheehan:
I understand.
Melanie Johnson:
Quite a terror.
Jessie Sheehan:
But if we're not using goop, and we'll talk about this in this recipe, you're greasing or you're brushing with melted butter and then, you're using either all-purpose flour or cocoa powder.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly, and it also depends ... If you have a recipe which is like a marble cake, then they're quite reliable because it doesn't have ... there's no fruit in there, there's nothing ... It's quite a sturdy pound cake style. So I find they are the most reliable.
Jessie Sheehan:
In terms of getting them out of the pan.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly,
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Melanie Johnson:
And chocolate cakes, I find chocolate cakes always come out really easy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I did a lemon Bundt recently and had some problems and I was very sad, but I think it was because I greased the pan. And then, I have this technique where you grease and then you sprinkle with granulated sugar, and then, it gives the Bundt like a little bit of sparkle and a little bit of crunch. And what I did is, even though my own recipe says to do this right before you fill the Bundt with the batter, I did it in the beginning of the process and just let it sit. So it kind of ... The sugar melted, the spray kind of ran down the bottom of the pan. So I still think it's a great technique, but it didn't work out. Goop is 100% reliable, and I think you make your goop in a bullet blender, did I read that?
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Melanie Johnson:
I find the bullet blender really makes it so super smooth that it just creates such a good barrier between the batter and the tin itself.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. All right, so let's talk about the easiest chocolate and vanilla marble Bundt with milk chocolate glaze. So it's a classic Bundt that you grew up with in Austria, your grandmother, and I'm probably going to mess up the name, so you'll have to tell me, but your grandmother called it a Gugelhupf.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
A Gugelhupf?
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And yours has her same buttery swirls of vanilla and chocolate, and you serve at any time of day, at a breakfast, afternoon tea, evening. First things first, we're going to preheat our oven to 350 degrees and we're going to prep our pan. We could use our goop, which again, the recipe is in Melanie's book, which is great, or what the recipe calls first, we're going to melt some butter. We're going to use a pastry brush to brush evenly inside our 10-cup Bundt pan. And we're going to be very careful to get into every nook and cranny. And I loved this tip, we're going to brush from the base up to prevent the butter pooling, which I think is exactly what happens when I greased my pan and put the sugar in, all the grease, all the cooking spray just pooled in the bottom.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly. And that causes problems.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, it definitely.
Melanie Johnson:
And even when you are using the release spray, use it just before. Don't spray it on before you do anything because otherwise, then it pulls from-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Yep. And I just wondered, this is a 10-cup Bundt pan, but do you have a favorite shape?
Melanie Johnson:
It's so hard because it depends on which cake I'm making. So I mean, one of my favorite discoveries was actually making panna cotta in a Bundt tin because when you make panna cotta and then, you turn it out, it just looks so beautiful and there I never ... I've never had an issue with making a jelly and ice cream or creme caramel or a panna cotta release from a Bundt tin.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's incredible.
Melanie Johnson:
So if that's your worry and you have a Bundt tin, then that's definitely one of the recipes you could try.
Jessie Sheehan:
You should make.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to sift some cocoa powder, and I wondered, is it Dutch-processed cocoa powder or a natural cocoa powder, or it just doesn't matter?
Melanie Johnson:
It doesn't really matter. So in the U.S., you've got that really lovely, deep, dark, rich, sort of the Matilda chocolate cake level of cocoa, but we don't have that. We don't have the Dutch-
Jessie Sheehan:
Processed.
Melanie Johnson:
We just have a different ... Yes, we just have a different one.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to sift cocoa powder over the inside of the pan, moving the pan from side to side to coat it evenly, and then we'll turn it upside down to give it a final tap to remove any excess. I usually do that over the sink. Do you do that over the sink or are you trying to save the cocoa powder, and you do it over parchment or something?
Melanie Johnson:
I absolutely do it over the sink too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Over the sink. And then we'll set it aside.
Melanie Johnson:
The mess.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Okay. So now in a small bowl, we're going to bloom the cocoa powder and the boiling water together. What kind of bowl should I picture that we're using to do this?
Melanie Johnson:
Well, if I was advising what to use, I would say that use a lovely small bowl, but in practice, because I have ... Literally, my kettle is below my mug cupboard, I definitely ... I always do this in a mug. I just mix my boiling water and the cocoa powder in a mug, give a little whisk, and then set it down.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that, and then tell us why you do that. Why are you combining the hot water and the cocoa?
Melanie Johnson:
Well, what I find is that if you add cocoa specifically for something like this where you're just going to split the batter and then you're going to add cocoa to one part, but then not cocoa to the other, to balance out the batters, because cocoa is quite drying, you need to add the water to the cocoa, in order for it to not only incorporate, but also so that it won't suck moisture from that portion of the batter. So I think it just helps keep it more moist.
Jessie Sheehan:
That makes a lot of sense. I also think that there is something about the reaction of the hot water and the cocoa that kind of blooms the flavor. So it's also a little bit more of a poppy chocolate flavor when you do something like this.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes. And it definitely smells really delicious as you're doing it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And that's important.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Now, we're going to add softened unsalted butter and golden caster sugar. Now for us, is that granulated sugar? Is that like brown sugar or dark brown sugar?
Melanie Johnson:
It's your golden granulated sugar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Golden granulated.
Melanie Johnson:
But there's not much difference in it because granulated is just slightly coarser than caster.
Jessie Sheehan:
I see.
Melanie Johnson:
Okay. That's the only difference.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it won't actually taste different. So we can just use our regular old granulated sugar if we want. So we're going to add our unsalted butter, some golden caster sugar or granulated sugar to a mixing bowl. And are we using a stand mixer or a hand mixer, or does it not matter?
Melanie Johnson:
It doesn't really matter, but I mean, I would probably use my hand beaters for this when I'm making it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Why? Why wouldn't you use your stand mixer?
Melanie Johnson:
I don't know. Just because it's easier. I just find I quite like my hand beaters because it's such an easy recipe. I don't think I'd bother using my stand mixer for it. Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
So what kind of bowl would you use? Would you use a metal bowl or a big glass or ceramic bowl?
Melanie Johnson:
I have a big ceramic bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Nice. So we're going to grab our big ceramic bowl like Melanie, and with our hand mixer, we're going to cream together until pale and fluffy. The butter and the sugar, is there a particular speed we're at this point, like medium?
Melanie Johnson:
No, I would start on a slow speed and then speed up a bit, and then just keep on going until it's really mixed. I think this is one of the areas that so many people don't put the time into. I think you really have to emphasize that you have to really beat the two things together to make them properly pale and fluffy. With some of my recipes, when I was testing them, I got so worried that people would make them the wrong way and not cream the butter and sugar. Then in some of them, I actually said to melt the butter first because that way, I just know I'm guaranteed that they're going to be able to incorporate the butter and the sugar properly. But it was specifically for certain recipes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So that's like three to five minutes usually, I think at least in a stand mixer to get that light and fluffy that you need. Then we're going to add eggs one at a time, and we're going to beat well after each, maybe on medium or medium-low speed with the eggs.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, we're going to add some vanilla paste. Is it okay if we add extract or do you really prefer paste for this recipe?
Melanie Johnson:
I have the vanilla bean paste, which I just always think gives the best flavor. If you're not using an actual vanilla pod, I always think that the vanilla bean paste is the purest flavor that you can add.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there a brand you like?
Melanie Johnson:
Nielsen-Massey. Yeah, I definitely favor Nielsen-Massey for that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. They have beautiful vanilla paste. And we're going to add some kosher salt or fine sea salt. What kind of salt do you like to use?
Melanie Johnson:
I really love sea salt.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sea salt?
Melanie Johnson:
Actually, at your book launch, you gave the Cornish sea salt in the goodie bag, and so it did feel a bit wrong bringing Cornish salt back to England, but I love that salt. That salt was really good. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good. So if we're going to fold in, you call it plain flour, we call it, I think all-purpose flour. If we're going to fold in some all-purpose flour, some baking powder, and mix, when you say folding this in, is this all happening still in our bowl with our hand mixer, or are we now moving over to working by hand?
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, so I would remove the beaters before you put the flour in, and then literally just fold the flour in until you can just not see the white specks anymore.
Jessie Sheehan:
With a flexible spatula.
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. And you just sort of add the flour, add the baking powder, and then sort of mix them together. Sometimes recipes ask you to whisk them together in a separate bowl to make sure the leavening is distributed, but you are confident. We put it in, we fold it in with our spatula.
Melanie Johnson:
It's such a simple recipe really, but I just want it to be simple that people can make it without feeling they need another bowl, another bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
100%, 100%.
Melanie Johnson:
That's super simple.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to pour half the mixture into a separate bowl, and we're going to add the cocoa paste that we made to it and mix that together, maybe with our same flexible spatula until smooth. So I had two questions. Are you eyeballing it? I think this is half the batter, or do you weigh it?
Melanie Johnson:
It depends. If I was just making it to enjoy with my family, I would eyeball it. But if I was doing for something more precise, I don't know. If I was taking it to do a demonstration in Harrods, I might weigh it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that's a good answer. So now we have one bowl that has vanilla batter and one bowl that has chocolate batter. Now, we're going to pour layers of each of these batters into our prepared pan, adding one layer of one color on top of the other color, and we'll repeat until we've used up all the batter. Do you have a sense of how many layers you usually do?
Melanie Johnson:
It just depends. I try to do ... I'll put a dollop of the mixture in them. And then, I'll just alternate between adding dollops.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's not like you're doing an entire layer of white and then an entire layer of chocolate?
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, no, I normally just dollop.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Melanie Johnson:
I dollop.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Melanie Johnson:
Obviously, there are more techniques in the book. There's a zebra cake, and obviously, that's a very specific technique with dolloping.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
But for something like this, I would just think it needs to be fun and not too precise. I just think a dollop of the vanilla, dollop of chocolate, and it's all going to look beautiful in the end anyway, because as it rises, those marbles are all going to be there and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love it. And so now we'll drag along a wooden skewer to kind of drag through the-
Melanie Johnson:
You could use a toothpick or you could use ... I mean you could even use a knife if you don't have a toothpick, but just with a knife, I'd be more gentle, but with a toothpick, just make a few sort of lines through it to make sure that it's nicely mixed.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sort of just kind of going around the batter in a simple circle, or are we trying to do anything zig-zaggy with our wrist as we drag that skewer through?
Melanie Johnson:
I probably would do a curve. I probably would do a curved line.
Jessie Sheehan:
But just one, we don't keep going-
Melanie Johnson:
Just one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Love it. I know that we have coated our pan. We've prepped our pan with this cocoa powder and cooking spray, or maybe ... So if we had used it, would you also use the cocoa powder?
Melanie Johnson:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Melanie Johnson:
I would just do the goop.
Jessie Sheehan:
Just do the goop. But since we have the cocoa powder, does that make the vanilla parts of the cake look dark after we bake it, or is the whole outside brown anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
Melanie Johnson:
It's sort of all ... It all merges and it all looks pretty and delicious and chocolatey.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, we're going to bake for about 50 minutes until maybe that same skewer inserted it after it's cleaned, is inserted into the cake and comes out clean. Sometimes I like to see a moist crumb when I'm making a cake. Are you like a clean-or-go-home girl?
Melanie Johnson:
Well, I'm actually really fussy about making sure that I don't overbake, because that is the killer of all cakes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Agreed.
Melanie Johnson:
So you have to get that moment just right that when you take it out of the oven, it is literally at that turning point. So I mean, that is quite the skill, and you're not going to have it with your first cake. So you just ... As you bake more frequently, you're going to figure that out. And also, I always think you can smell it when you're in the kitchen and you're making lots of cakes. You'll know the smell, when that smell is there, and you suddenly go, "Oh, the cake is ready." That's the moment. And then you have a look and you do, you want it to be just ever so slightly not dry and cooked through. It's a really hard skill to share with people that aren't baking all of the time. You have to understand from your own eye of looking at it.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's why I think sometimes I will write a recipe for a moist crumb, because I figure ... I don't mean like wet batter, but if you see a crumb, you probably haven't overbaked it yet, but I agree with you. The worst is dry cake. The worst, worst, worst is dry cake. So now we're going to pull the Bundt from the oven and we'll let it cool for about 10 minutes, not longer and not shorter. Yeah.
Melanie Johnson:
And the way that I think is a really good way of assessing it is when you get your tin out of the oven and it's sitting ... and it does also really help to actually put the Bundt tin onto a wire rack so that it really cools all around for those 10 minutes. But then I always think the sign is, once you can handle the Bundt tin, that's the time, but still it will be hot, but once it's sort of more manageable, that's the time that it needs to come out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. Now, we're going to make the milk chocolate glaze while the Bundt is inverted, but cooling. We're going to melt some milk chocolate, unsalted butter, and golden syrup. We have golden syrup, but people can use corn syrup. Tell me why we want golden syrup in our glaze.
Melanie Johnson:
Because the golden syrup makes it beautiful and shiny. It just adds that little edge to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also feel like it can sometimes give it a little chew, almost, like it just makes the most perfect texture of the glaze too, plus that shininess and malleability.
Melanie Johnson:
Salty caramelly as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
So good.
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, it makes all the difference. But also, I really wanted to use a milk chocolate for the glaze rather than a dark chocolate because I just feel as though this Bundt is one that all the family can enjoy. And I just know that younger members of the family aren't going to like it if you've thrown a big dark chocolate ganache over it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Melanie Johnson:
So I wanted to keep it milky and family-friendly.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm one of the young people in the family, because I love milk chocolate, so I prefer it.
Melanie Johnson:
Me too.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, we're going to place the chocolate and the butter and the golden syrup in a little saucepan, or we can use a heatproof bowl in the microwave. We will melt the chocolate. Should the Bundt cake be cool by the time we pour the glaze over it?
Melanie Johnson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So the Bundt cake will have cooled. We're going to pour the glaze over it. Is the glaze pretty thick? But you know how sometimes, when you melt somethin,g you have to wait until it gets a little bit thicker before you use it.
Melanie Johnson:
Well yes. So while it's at its peak heat, then it will be quite runny. So if you just wait just for it to get to that in-between texture, then it will be pourable and it will actually do that lovely sort of dripping thing around the Bundt.
Jessie Sheehan:
So pretty. So then we will drizzle or drip our glaze over our Bundt. And do you have a technique for that? Do you like to get close to the cake? Do you like to be higher up from the cake with the glaze? Do you like to spoon it on or pour it on?
Melanie Johnson:
I like to pour it on. I like to put it onto a turntable actually, so that I can really do it evenly. So in one pour ... So as I spin the turntable whilst pouring, so it gets a lovely even drip pull down the side.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it better, do you feel like for the spout to be closer to the cake or farther away from the cake or does it not matter?
Melanie Johnson:
I don't know. I mean, I haven't really noticed a specific difference. I haven't tried different methods. I think I probably tend to go close, because I feel it gives me more control.
Jessie Sheehan:
More control. You let it set, and then you like to decorate with chocolate curls. Do you make those with a little vegetable peeler?
Melanie Johnson:
Yes, or just the back of a knife dragged down, the back of a bar of chocolates.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that.
Melanie Johnson:
Or you can buy them as well, can't you?
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Melanie Johnson:
All sorts of things.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted you to tell us about a couple of other Bundts in the book. I love Lamingtons so much. Tell us about a Lamington Bundt.
Melanie Johnson:
Oh, do you know I love the Lamington, and it's my sister's favorite one in the book. So obviously, being born in Australia, Lamingtons are very Australian.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us what a Lamington is for those that don't know?
Melanie Johnson:
So Lamington is a sponge cake that's covered in chocolate and coconut. And then sometimes, they're made with jam in the center and sometimes they're not, just depends, it's just different variations of what a classic Lamington is. I'm sure lots of Australians will argue about it. It should definitely have jam. No, it shouldn't have jam. So there are lots of views on it. I think that's definitely one of my most delicious ones in the book.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it a coconut-flavored Bundt, or it's just a vanilla Bundt coated and chocolate and sprinkled with coconut?
Melanie Johnson:
Exactly. It's a vanilla Bundt coated with chocolate, but it's actually really lovely to make because when you put the chocolate glaze on, it's surprisingly moist. So that really encloses the entire cake. And then with the coconut, it's really delicious. I need to go make that one again-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that sounds so good. And then, I think this might be your daughter's favorite, cookies and cream Bundt.
Melanie Johnson:
Yes. Cookies and cream. Who doesn't love an Oreo? Yes, my daughter absolutely loves this one. We've had this one for so many birthdays, I can't tell you. It's been an absolute favorite. We've had so many birthday cakes, so it's a chocolate Bundt. And then, the frosting is cookies. It's made with cream cheese frosting.
Jessie Sheehan:
My gosh.
Melanie Johnson:
It is really delicious, and it's a super moist chocolate cake as well. It's an all-rounder. I mean, it's a great one for a birthday, but it's also quite an everyday bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Finally, will you tell us about your Victoria Bundtwich based on a Victoria sandwich, and tell us what a Victoria sandwich is for those that don't know.
Melanie Johnson:
Well, a Victoria sponge is such a classic British cake that I couldn't possibly not have included one. And so, I just wanted to make a play on the words of a Victoria Bundtwich. It's a classic. It's just a vanilla sponge, filled with whipped cream and strawberries, and then dusted with icing sugar. But I can't tell you how many people actually make that one. And they send me the photographs of them and they're like, "I just made you a Victoria Bundtwich." So sometimes the simple cakes really are people's favorites. They're classics for a reason.
Jessie Sheehan:
So tell us about what your Victoria Bundtwich is. Is it a vanilla Bundt that you cut in half and fill with whipped cream and jam?
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, exactly. So it's a vanilla Bundt sliced in half across and then inside, I filled it with strawberry jam.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Melanie Johnson:
Did I fill it with strawberry jam? Raspberry jam.
Jessie Sheehan:
It doesn't matter. People can use whatever jam they want.
Melanie Johnson:
Yeah, exactly. But it definitely tastes better, even though you put strawberries in it, it does taste better with seedless raspberry jam in it. So you do the vanilla sponge, slice it across, fill it with raspberry seedless, jam whipped cream, and then strawberries on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
How come it tastes better with the raspberry jam without seeds.
Melanie Johnson:
You know, I think it's because the raspberries are more tart. And so, the jam just adds a certain tartness to it and then, combined with the fresh raspberries, the fresh strawberries, it just works better.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Melanie Johnson:
So once you fill the center of it, you just put the top of the Bundt back on, dust it with icing sugar, and then of course, there's the fabulous center of the Bundt that then you can then fill with strawberries. So it's a really lovely bake for anything. It's just such a ... It's really lovely summery bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sounds so delicious, Melanie. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Melanie. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Melanie Johnson:
Thank you so much for having me, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Nordic Ware for supporting this episode. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.