Renato Poliafito Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is a special friend of mine, Renato Poliafito. Renato is the owner of Ciao, Gloria, a bakery and cafe in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn, and Pasta Night, a casual pasta restaurant across the street from the bakery. And fun fact, Nato gave me my first bakery job, and he and his team basically taught me everything I know. Renato is also a two-time James Beard Award nominee and the co-author of several cookbooks. His latest book, a love letter to Italy as it were, is “Dolci!: American Baking with an Italian Accent,” and it is his first as a solo author. Renato and I talk about his love affair with Italy from his childhood trips there spent missing his home in Queens, New York, to the Italian-inspired recipes he developed for the books he co-wrote, to Ciao, Gloria, a cafe steeped in his Italian-American upbringing. Then we talk about his spumoni loaf. A cake inspired by the traditional southern Italian gelato dessert spumoni, as well as Italian-American rainbow cookies. I loved chatting with Renato, so stay tuned for our convo. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Cherry Bombe's newest issue, the Power issue is out. Now we have four different covers for this issue and you won't believe our cover stars. Activist and author, Gloria Steinem, Chef Mashama Bailey of the Grey in Savannah, chef/restauranteurs, Jody Williams and Rita Sodi behind Via Corota and more in New York City, and chef and culinary creative, Sophia Roe. If you're a subscriber to Cherry Bombe magazine, you'll receive your issue very soon. If you're not a subscriber yet, head to cherrybombe.com and sign up today to receive this issue, or stop by your local culinary shop or bookstore to pick up a copy.
Let's chat with today's guest. Nato, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk spumoni loaf cake with you and so much more.
Renato Poliafito:
Yay. I'm very excited.
Jessie Sheehan:
So your new book, “Dolci!: American Baking with an Italian Accent,” is truly a love letter to Italy. But your first impressions of Italy as a little boy were not the most enthusiastic. Can you tell us about those feelings?
Renato Poliafito:
Oh yeah, I'd be happy to. My parents did this thing when I was growing up where every few years we would up and go to Italy and Sicily actually, because where my parents were from, and they were from this small town. Under the guise of it being a summer vacation. So school would end, they'd be like, "We're going to Sicily." And I'm like, "That's great." They're like, "Pack your bags, whatever. We're going for a few weeks." And I thought that was great because I had family in Sicily. The food was good. It was just a completely different culture. It was a fun experience. But what my parents would do is extend the stay for months on end into the new school year with the idea of like, "Oh, maybe we'll live here now." It was very difficult for me because I would be an American kid in a very small Italian town, and almost like a point of interest to people. And they would enroll me in school and my Italian wasn't fantastic and it was hard making friends and the curriculum was so different than my curriculum in America. And then also it was the '80s, so the world wasn't as connected as it is today. I would only write letters to friends and receive letters on occasion, and we didn't even have a telephone in the town we were in. So it was just very difficult.
And you're coming from New York as a kid where you have access to everything and you have your toys, you have your TV shows, you have your friends to a place where you had none of that. So it was always very trying. And they did that three times throughout my childhood. Because of that, I was just like, "I'm over Italy. I can't." And that was my only exposure to it. So of course, it was somewhat negative.
Jessie Sheehan:
You and Italy had an early break-up or a rocky start.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I get it that you're feeling a little ambivalent, particularly these stays got extended. But were there yummy baked treats or things that you were eating that could compete with the Hostess Cupcakes or the whatever was happening back in the United States? And if so, can you tell us about those treats?
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. There were, and they were completely different. I discovered Nutella in 1979 because I would go to Sicily and my aunt would ... As it looks like on the jar, there's a piece of bread with Nutella spread on it. It's how it was eaten. And it was eaten at any point during the day. So I thought Nutella was the bees knees. That was one of the first things. And then that was the joy. I would eat gelato and ice creams and little torts and arancini and all the classic Italian street food. So to me, that was really exciting. And also, I had four aunts that I would just bop around and I would just eat at their houses on any given day and I'd have these amazing meals.
Jessie Sheehan:
Were they your mom's sisters or your dad's?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. My mom was one of five sisters.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. And they all lived within three blocks of each other.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. Love it. And when you would go to these different aunts' homes, would they be baking treats for you as well as feeding you delicious pasta?
Renato Poliafito:
I would say my aunts were more on the savory side, like Pasta alla Norma and cutlets. Those were super typical Italian Sicilian food. One aunt would back every now and again, do a ciambella, which was like a ring cake. But they would keep it pretty simple. Treats and desserts were meant to be had outside. So we would go to the gelateria, we would go to the bar and have little desserts and little things you would bring to other people's homes type of things. Also, in the morning, I remember having these things called Colussi, which are these cookies that you just throw in milk. It was like a cereal, but it was just cookies put in milk and warm milk, and you would eat these cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
With a spoon?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Renato Poliafito:
You could break them apart and just eat them because they would just fall apart in this warm milk. They were just a simple, almost a frolla cookie. Like a short, quick pastry. It was delicious. Absolutely delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. Love. Now I know your mom, maybe her sisters, were more of a savory cook than a baker, but when she did bake or if she baked when you were little, were you there? Did you have an early love of making sweet things? I know you had an early love of eating them. Hello Nutella. As did I. But did you also like to make them with her?
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. I was always in the kitchen. I was your mama's boy. So yeah, I would spend a lot of time in the kitchen with my mom. I was like my mom's assistant. We would clean the house together. I would run errands for her and I would spend time in the kitchen and she would cook around me. I was never allowed to do anything because I was like a son. So it's like I shouldn't be cutting or prepping or anything, but I could watch and taste and that's what I did growing up. My mom, in her rotation, she had two or three pastries or two or three desserts that she would make. Olive oil cake, S cookies. What was the other thing? She would make these tortes every now and again, like a citrus torte or something. Very straightforward, very basic things. But that introduced my love of pastry and dessert.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, I think you were a big fan of a cookie tray.
Renato Poliafito:
Oh, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe cookie trays to us? I know there might be like tricolore and butter cookies and mini versions of Pastiera. How's my pronunciation there?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. You could do mini versions of Pastiera.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell me about that.
Renato Poliafito:
It's just such a classic Italian, Italian-American thing, and even it bleeds into Jewish culture as well. The rainbow cookie, the mini black and whites. In America, it's like you bring a cookie tray to something and it's filled with butter cookies, everything you just mentioned. But in Italy, that culture is there as well. But you go to the pastry shop, let's say on a Sunday morning, you pick from a selection, they create a tray for you, they wrap it in that paper with the ribbon, and then you either bring it to someone's house or that's the dessert you have after dinner on a Sunday.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God. I just love this whole cookie tray notion. Cookies on trays.
Renato Poliafito:
Who doesn't want to show up ... I'd rather show up with a tray of cookies than a bottle of wine.
Jessie Sheehan:
100%. I would rather receive a tray of cookies. I'm like, "Wine, I have that, but please bring me cookies."
Renato Poliafito:
I have like 400 bottles of wine, but I'm just like, "Someone please bring me a cookie tray."
Jessie Sheehan:
So even though your mom wasn't letting you bake when you were little, you did end up opening a bakery called Baked in Red Hook, Brooklyn in 2005, and I met you there.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes, you did.
Jessie Sheehan:
In 2006, my first baking job, making you my first baking boss. Tell us about Baked's vibe and the baked goods that we made there, and all of that.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Well, Baked is still around today. It was a classic American bakery with a twist. So we would find these classic American desserts, we would update them, we would tweak them, or sometimes we would just clean them up a little. Think three-layer cakes, brownies, cookies, pies, bars, tarts, that sort of thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Rice Krispies treats. Whoopie pies.
Renato Poliafito:
Rice Krispies treats. Yeah. All of that, all of that. And that really introduced me to that love of dessert and also the historical context of dessert. I'm always fascinated, where do things come from? Why are things the way they are? And applying that to food is always fascinating. Yeah. Because of that, we wrote four cookbooks and did a lot of research, but Baked was a wonderful experience in the sense that it really changed my trajectory, changed my path. I'm really grateful for that. It was a great cafe. It was something that was a great mix of classic American bakery and coffee shop, which I think was a thing that wasn't so common at the time, 2005. At that time, a lot of bakeries were about the cupcake. A lot of bakeries were trying to look like your grandmother's kitchen type of thing. Like that Magnolia moment. Matt and I were two guys and we had a design aesthetic and we had an approach and we're like, "We don't want to look like that. We don't want it. We want it to be modern and slightly chic and a moment." So we went with this lodge approach. That's where the antlers come from, the deer and all that. And I think it surprised people. You would walk in and it wouldn't feel like a bakery per se, but we would have everything a bakery would have.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Peeps, did you know that we have a free, She's My Cherry Pie newsletter that coincides with each new episode? It comes out every Saturday morning and shares insights about the guest, their recipe, and other fun tidbits and baking news like our cake of the week. To sign up, head to cherrybombe.substack.com or click the link in our show notes.
Have you tuned into Radio Cherry Bombe? It's the flagship podcast from Cherry Bombe, hosted by founder Kerry Diamond. Every Monday, Kerry sits down with the most fascinating folks in food, drink, and hospitality, from icons to rising stars. Don't miss her conversations with Ina Garten, Alice Waters, Padma Lakshmi, “The Bear’s” Liza Colón-Zayas, and so many more. Listen to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get podcasts. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Now, back to our guest.
While running Baked, you co-authored several cookbooks, and because I tested and developed recipes for them, I have firsthand knowledge of the fact that you were always contributing Italian-inspired baked goods to the Baked books, despite the fact that Baked had more of this American feeling happening. So I think it's fair to say that you maybe always knew you would write an Italian-American baking book.
Renato Poliafito:
Well, I feel like it's just so ingrained in me, and it was how I was raised. As the son of immigrants, I always think that America is an amalgam of different cultures. Everything that is American or uniquely American comes from somewhere else, comes from someone who is from someplace else or at least maybe a few generations back from someplace else. For me, it seemed logical where I was like, "Oh, okay. How do I American-ify or how do I add a little Italian spin to this American dessert?" That was always fascinating to me. And I did want to get my stamp on the books to show that it was like, yeah, I did contribute to these as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before the Italian-American baking book came, the Italian-American cafe came, which is Ciao, Gloria, which is one of my all-time faves. Can you tell us about the vibe of ... We discussed what Baked was like. Tell us about what Ciao was like and how they're similar and different.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Well, after I left Baked in 2017, I took a couple of years off and tried to figure out what my next steps should be. I did love having a business, but I was like, "Okay. If I re-approach this, it has to be on my own terms and it has to be my own place." I felt that I always got tripped up with having partners and investors and people making decisions. It was something I solely wanted to do on my own, but also I had prerequisites. It had to be a new space, it had to be affordable, and I had to really put my stamp on it. I didn't want it to be just like Baked. I was like, "Okay. Well, what if I start leaning into this Italian thing and really make this bright, sunny, happy-feeling coffee shop cafe that also happens to sell really great savory food and really great baked goods and the baked goods are American, Italian and a little in between." And that's how Ciao came about. For me, it just seems like a perfect representation of who I am and who I've been, and I'm letting the world see. It's like, oh, this is what I'm about. It's a wonderful thing. We're going on our fifth year. It is wonderful. It's a wonderful experience.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you think it's fair to say that your dessert style is very much like a mix of Baked and a mix of Ciao, or do you think Ciao incorporates that Americana vibe already so it's just what we're seeing in the bakery today?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Obviously, I have experience with Baked, and Baked is where I learned everything. So of course, I'm coming into Ciao with that knowledge. So the things I create, the things that we develop there will have echoes of baked, because baked was what I was as well. What I want to do is ... For example, the one thing I did bring from Baked was the chocolate biscotti, which I absolutely loved. I was like, "This is the recipe that we need to carry on." Because I just think it was so good. And biscotti fits perfectly. But yeah, I feel like it is a happy marriage of those two. You worked at Baked, so you know how the development process goes. It's a conversation. The bakers in the kitchen where they would come up with ideas or concepts and you would hash it out. You would taste it and say, "Okay. Why don't we do this?" It's always collaborative, and that's what I like about running a business is that it's not just me saying, "Hey, we're doing this. Case closed." It is, "Hey guys, what do you think of this? Do any of you have any ideas? Let's make something special together." And that's the way I've approached it for the last five years, and it seems to work.
Jessie Sheehan:
At Baked, we always sold Rice Krispies treats like these massive ones that were just heaven. And I know in “Dolce!” in your new book, you have this tiramisu Rice Krispies treat. Do you always have a Rice Krispies treat on the Ciao menu?
Renato Poliafito:
It comes and goes. The Rice Krispies treat is on the menu now because of the book.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Renato Poliafito:
Probably in the fall, we'll probably swap it out because fall is so abundant and there are so many different flavors I want to feature.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us some of the other things in the case at Ciao that are also in the book?
Renato Poliafito:
The crostata della nonna, the amoretti, the almond plum torte, the ricotta polenta torte, any of our cakes, cinnamon rolls, the scones.
Jessie Sheehan:
These are all in the book.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Yeah. The biscotti. Yeah. The carrot cake. You should approach, or at least I approach every book as if it's my last, because you never know. So I really wanted to say, "Okay. Let me just put this all out there." Obviously, the recipes in the book aren't 100% exactly like the ones in the cafe, but they're close and they're delicious, and I think people who come to Ciao will really enjoy it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I love that you get to write a book and then promote it at work every single day.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Well, I call the book the best business card you could ever have.
Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I wanted to talk a little bit more about “Dolci!” before we dive into this spumoni loaf cake recipe. So this book is your fifth, but I love this. You say it's your first solo album. And it's described as a joyous, and I might add gorgeous, celebration of Italian, American, and Italian-American tastes and traditions. And I think you've unpacked that for us, but was that conscious while you were writing it like, okay, this is the American, this is Italian, here I am merging them? Or did it just flow out of you all those things?
Renato Poliafito:
It was a little bit of both. You know this. When you're putting together a cookbook, I think best approach ... And we've gone through this. Is to start with the table of contents and see how all the recipes work with each other. What does this book look like? Are you covering your breakfast items? Are you covering your bars? Do you have a chocolate-based, a caramel-based, a cinnamon-based? It's just like you're looking at all of those things. So what I want to do is have something for everyone, and that's how I approached this book. I didn't quite say, okay, this is strictly Italian. This is strictly American with an Italian twist. But I looked at it as a whole because everything in the book would have some Italian component to it. There are basically two or three recipes in there that are just not Italian at all, but we sell them at Ciao. I was like, "Okay. Well, it should be in the book."
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm so curious because in the front matter of cookbooks, you're often required to do a favorite ingredients, favorite baking tools. Your editor demands that. And I am very impressed that you do not have an ingredient and tool section, and I would like to know how you finagled that.
Renato Poliafito:
It was a conversation I had with Casey Elsass, who you know. Casey refers to himself as a book doula. He helps everyone, I think that I know, birth a book. He keeps you in line, makes sure you hit your deadlines and all that. So he's fantastic and he helped me a ton with the book, which I needed because running Ciao and writing a book was something I don't know I think I'll ever do again. But it was a conversation that we had right from the start. He's like, "You know what, I don't think this book really needs all of that nonsense." Not that it's nonsense, but it's like every cookbook. We wrote it four times for the baked books, and it's like the tools you'll need, the ingredients. I wanted it to be approachable, but I wanted it to be a smart book. You're probably baking if you pick this up. You've been in a kitchen. We just went through a pandemic. You know sourdough. You know the basics.
If there is a recipe that needs something specific, the recipe will mention it. You know where to get your flour. We thought that the most important thing that should be in the front matter of the book was an essay on buying a scale and really approaching baking the way it should be approached, where it's a fact of weights and measures. Where to be a good baker, you should measure in grams. It shouldn't be cups, it shouldn't be that sort of thing. We, of course, added cups and teaspoons and all that, but it's secondary. So when you read a recipe, it's like 400 grams of flour, 250 grams of sugar, and that was the most important part. If you want to be a good baker, buy a scale, measure out your ingredients and your success rate, I think will skyrocket.
Jessie Sheehan:
You first, I think described it this way to me years ago before the book came into being, but this idea that it's almost a coffee table book because it's so beautiful. It's full of all these incredible photos of Italy. It's like that book. So it seems almost silly to be like, "And then buy some Nutella and some sugar and some flour." You also tell us early on in the book, which I love that it does not require special equipment. But can you walk us through some of the ingredients that you think would make sense for us to have before we jump into the book?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Of course, of course. Well, I want to mention that Kevin Miyazaki, who was the photographer of the book, did all the studio shots and the location shots. He's super talented and he was a dream to work with, and that's why the book just looks the way it does. He just did such a great job with it. I would say in terms of ingredients I had noted ... And one of the most difficult things about writing this book was Italians tend to use the same ingredients across the board for every dessert. So I was like, "How do I add variety here?" Because if you go to Italy and you look at pastry, you have your frolla dough and then your fillings are usually apricot, pistachio, chocolate, pastry cream, vanilla pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us what frolla dough is in case-
Renato Poliafito:
Frolla is just like a quick pastry dough. It's like what Italians use. Like tart dough. They use it for almost everything. They can make cookies with it, they can make tarts with it, whatever. And it's really good. It's sweet, it's a great dough and it's really friendly. Looking at all the fillings, they tend to love pistachios, almonds, hazelnuts, and ricotta, and then citrus. So every recipe, or at least I'd say 80% of Italian desserts are some combination of those things.
Jessie Sheehan:
So interesting.
Renato Poliafito:
In different forms. So it was in a way, a bit redundant. Italians, they stick to their guns. These are the ingredients that are from where they are, so they use them, but the variety wasn't quite there. So I really tried to pull back and say, "Okay. If this recipe is always a ricotta-filled treat dessert, what if we change that to pastry cream? What if we did something different here?" But yeah, I would say those are the main components that you would need. Flour, sugar, butter, and then the nuts, the pistachios, almonds and hazelnuts, your cocoa, ricotta, and citrus.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. So now I can't wait to dive into your spumoni loaf cake recipe. I chose this recipe or asked you if we could do this recipe because I so associate you with tricolore cookies and we will talk about what those are or a rainbow cookie. First, will you tell us what is spumoni?
Renato Poliafito:
Spumoni is ... And I did a little research on this as well because I was like, where did it come from? It's a Neapolitan-based treat. It's usually an ice cream. And it's three layers of a pistachio cherry and chocolate most usually. I did read somewhere ... And I find this fascinating, is that when that concept of those three flavors made it stateside, I think pistachios or cherries might've been a little less available so they replace it with vanilla and strawberry and they called that Neapolitan. Isn't that amazing?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Renato Poliafito:
Anyway, so I believe that because I'm like, that makes sense. So Neapolitan and spumoni are from the same thing. And spumoni means aerated. So basically, it was an aerated cream with these flavors of dried fruits and nuts and eaten frozen. A rainbow cookie is a typically American dessert that was created by an Italian is what they say. It has multiple names. I call them tricolores because it emulates the Italian flag, and the Italian flag is the tricolore.
It's a seven layer cookie or a rainbow cookie. At Baked even in the first book, it was always one of my favorite things. So even in the first book I was doctoring it and I created an orange, chocolate, and vanilla-infused rainbow cookie, which I absolutely loved, and I think Bakes probably still sells it to this day. But when I opened Ciao, I started with the Neapolitan flavors, then I moved to a spumoni flavor of these little bars, but then I just moved it back to the classic because I always found that the classic always outsold any other flavor. But for the book, I was like, "I really love that spumoni combination. It's so Italian." So I decided to oversize it, turn it into a loaf cake and have those three classic flavor components, the pistachio, the cherry, and the chocolate, cover it in a chocolate ganache and there you go.
Jessie Sheehan:
And layer it with-
Renato Poliafito:
Oh, with a raspberry jam. And most of them are ... You could do raspberry or apricot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or the tricolore cookies, those are almond cake as well.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's just teeny tiny little layers almond-
Renato Poliafito:
They're thin-
Jessie Sheehan:
You would make in a sheet pan.
Renato Poliafito:
Yep. You can make it in a sheet pan. Most bakeries would make them that way. A full sheet, all three layers, you're dying each layer. They're all almond flavored, but my version is adding things to them, additional flavors. So you have an almond base, but maybe with pistachio bits and some pistachio extract in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I also love that in Italy, since as an American, I'm like, oh my God, look at that Italian cookie. So in short, the recipe pulls from the best of both. It's like built at the scale of a spumoni with almond chocolate, cherry, and pistachio cake layers sandwiched with this raspberry jam and with a shimmery dark chocolate glaze.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to make the cake layer. So we're going to heat the oven to 325, set a rack in the center, and we're going to grease three nine-by-five-inch loaf pans with cooking spray and then line each with a parchment sling, leaving a little bit of overhang. And that sling is so that we have very-
Renato Poliafito:
Easy lift.
Jessie Sheehan:
So that we can just lift out the layers. We don't have to worry about inverting the pan. Then in a medium bowl ... And I wondered, do you have a type of bowl or a brand of bowl that you like to use?
Renato Poliafito:
I have these nesting bowls from an old Martha Stewart that I use all the time. But then I have my glass bowls from Anchor Hocking. And then if I'm in the cafe, if I'm at Ciao, it's just your classic metal bowls.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in a medium bowl, we're going to whisk some all purpose flour. Is there a brand you like, either at home or at the bakery?
Renato Poliafito:
King Arthur. King Arthur is always fantastic.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to whisk that all-purpose flour, baking powder. Fine sea salt. Why not kosher salt?
Renato Poliafito:
Because I find that in a recipe like this one, it integrates a little better than the kosher. For me kosher, it's almost like flaky sea salt. It's like something you might finish with. But the fine sea salt, I find that it's just the way it spreads into the recipe more.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is there a certain kind of whisk you like a balloon whisk or a skinnier whisk?
Renato Poliafito:
Well, I wish I had a balloon whisk. The one little thing inside. But I just have a regular whisk at home.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to whisk those dry ingredients together, set them aside, and then in a stand mixer fitted with our paddle attachment, we're going to beat some almond paste. Can you tell us the brand of almond paste?
Renato Poliafito:
It varies. We get our almond paste through our distributor, and sometimes it's one brand or another. It's a green package. Ideally, if you have the means, there's almond paste that comes directly from Sicily. One very famous one is from a town Erice, where Maria Grammatico, she makes almond paste and she sells it like in logs. And the last time I was there, I bought four logs and obviously used them all up. But if you have access, I know sometimes maybe Eataly might have them. I know she ships out. Using that because that is true almond paste. It's the right sweetness. It's actual almonds from Sicily. It's perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I always wonder with almond paste, can I wrap it up in plastic wrap and keep it?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah, of course.
Jessie Sheehan:
You could just keep it at room temp in your cabinet.
Renato Poliafito:
You can keep it, I think until it's opened, then I would probably refrigerate it.
Jessie Sheehan:
You would? Okay.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. You can keep it wrapped and reuse it. Have you ever had Sicilian almond milk?
Jessie Sheehan:
No.
Renato Poliafito:
Okay. So it's made with almond paste. So you just slice off a chunk of it, add cold water, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, and then it's this delicious cold almondy milk sweetened drink.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Renato Poliafito:
It's really, really good. And that's what you could use with the excess or if you just like, "I don't feel like baking," you can make that almond milk. It's such a treat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So we're going to beat almond paste with some granulated sugar at medium speed until the almond paste is like pea-sized pieces. Then we're going to add some unsalted room temp butter, beat at medium high until smooth. And this is for about five minutes. Are we also looking for something fluffy and light and color at this point?
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. It'll come together into a homogeneous texture. It won't be like clumps of this, clumps of that. It'll be smooth.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have eggs in this recipe, and we separate them.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
At this point, we're going to add some room temperature egg yolks. We'll do so one at a time. Is the mixer still on medium-high or should we bring it down now that we're adding the yolks?
Renato Poliafito:
I would say medium-high is a little quick for the yolks. I would bring it down. I'm always cautious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. You don't want to get splattered in egg. It's not pretty. So we're going to add our room temp egg yolks, maybe at medium speed, one at a time, stopping to scrape the sides of the bowl as needed. Then we're going to add some room temperature whole milk, and some almond and vanilla extract. So I had a couple of questions. First is there a brand of vanilla, brand of almond that you guys like at the bakery or that you like at home?
Renato Poliafito:
Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Does Nielsen-Massey do almond?
Renato Poliafito:
I believe so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, nice.
Renato Poliafito:
Nielsen-Massey does a bunch of different flavors. I know they do orange and lemon and dah, dah, dah. So yeah, they do have an almond one because I have that at home. But if not, there's the one they sell at Whole Foods. The organics one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Like Simply-
Renato Poliafito:
Simply Organic or... Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I have a question. Are you adding the vanilla to pop that almond flavor? Is there also a vanilla flavor you're looking for here? Why both extracts?
Renato Poliafito:
I find that the tricolores tend to be sweet. On the much sweeter side. And I find that the vanilla adds that note. A more familiar bakery flavor note to this. So that's why I added both of them. The almond to really punch up the almond flavor, but the vanilla to give it that familiar sweetness.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love like an almond extract. I know for some people it tastes fake or it doesn't taste ... I think it is delicious.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Renato Poliafito:
You should always use it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Renato Poliafito:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Case closed. Exactly. And we're going to mix this together until combined. Then we're going to reduce the mixer speed to low, and we're going to add our dry ingredients that are in our bowl that we already whisked in two parts, mixing until each one is combined.
Renato Poliafito:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're transferring all of this batter out of the stand mixer and into a large bowl. We're going to clean and dry our mixer bowl, return it to the stand mixer, now with a whisk attachment, and we're going to whisk up or beat up our egg whites on medium speed to medium stiff peaks. About four minutes.
Renato Poliafito:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then fold the whites back into the batter about a third at a time.
Renato Poliafito:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you do that thing where the first third you can be a little more aggressive.
Renato Poliafito:
Aggressive. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then those second two-thirds more-
Renato Poliafito:
A gentle hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Why do we do that?
Renato Poliafito:
I just feel like because the one that's going to get beat the most, and that's the one that'll lose it's the volume the most. So you don't have to worry about it too much. It's like once you get to the second, or most importantly, the last part ... And I also save a little more for the last part just because I do want it to have a little bit of that nice lift, that nice texture. But yeah, that's basically why, because you're doing it three times. So after three beatings basically, or three foldings, it'll lose.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Oh, and I didn't ask, but is there a favorite spatula you like or either at home or at the bakery?
Renato Poliafito:
No. I use the classic...
Jessie Sheehan:
The restaurant supply ones with the white heads and-
Renato Poliafito:
With the white heads. I have those at the cafe. But once I was given a ... And you'll appreciate this. A free Kerrygold rubber spatula, and it's green and I absolutely love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now that we have folded in our whites, we're going to evenly divide the batter into three medium bowls and in a small bowl, so a fourth bowl, we're going to mix up some cocoa powder and some boiling water together to form a paste. So a couple of questions. First of all, Dutch processed? Natural? Which cocoa powder do you prefer?
Renato Poliafito:
Dutch processed. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're adding this boiling water. We're blooming the chocolate. Can you tell us a little bit about blooming?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Blooming is just basically you're releasing the flavor of whatever you're blooming. Blooming chocolate will take it to that next stage where it is chocolate. You're basically folding that into the mixture and the paste is something that you're folding into the almond cake. And because it's bloomed, because it's a paste, it becomes more uniform throughout.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to add this chocolate to one bowl of our batter, along with some mini chocolate chips, which I love. Do you have a brand of chips? A percentage? And yes, tell us why you add them.
Renato Poliafito:
We get our chocolate chips from Chef's Warehouse, and they're vegan and they're dark and they're really good. And they're mini. I can't remember the name of it, though. But they're actually pretty good.
Jessie Sheehan:
As I asked that question about percentage, I feel like I've only ever seen minis in semi-sweet. I'm sure they probably exist in other percentages, but I've only ever seen-
Renato Poliafito:
I would say this is a high percentage because then there's no milk content. They are vegan, so they're nice and dark.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That's lovely.
Renato Poliafito:
And they're really chocolatey.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do they end up melting a little bit in the cake batter? They stay-
Renato Poliafito:
They stay. So you have this nice bite. And that's the thing I wanted to incorporate. Spumoni classically has fruit and nuts and things inside of it. So you have that texture along with the frozen quality of it. But here I wanted to add that idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to fold that up. So we have this one bowl. Now we have turned our little bowl of almond cake batter into like a chocolate, chocolate chip almond cake batter.
Renato Poliafito:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
To our second bowl of batter, we're going to add pistachio extract and two drops of green food gel coloring and some unsalted toasted, roughly chopped pistachios. We'll fold that up. Is pistachio extract hard to find?
Renato Poliafito:
It's not super hard to find. We live in a world where you just go on Amazon and you'll find it. I don't think it'll be in your regular supermarket aisle unless you have a really nice supermarket. But it is something that's relatively easy to find. With pistachio extract, it's interesting because I think most pistachio extracts are based off of almond extract with some slight differences, but mainly it's almond.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Is there a brand that... Are you guys using a Nielsen-Massey pistachio extract?
Renato Poliafito:
No. No. I think this was a Simply Organics one. Because I remember it was one of those things where it's like, "Oh, the Nielsen-Massey does not have this."
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. It's funny because I was going to say that. I feel like whenever I am making something that is pistachio flavored, the trick to pop the pistachio flavor is a teeny bit of almond extract. But I love the idea of pistachio extract. I once worked with a ... I don't know. I developed ... I think it was like a pistachio chiffon cake, and so it needed oil, and I found pistachio oil. So it was like all these different components. But I still think I used a little bit of almond extract.
Renato Poliafito:
Just like a teaspoon or so. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally. And that's the thing, it's like this is an almond cake already. So this is where the doctoring comes in. It's like if you have the pistachio extract, use that, it will lean. It's just a more almondy taste.
Renato Poliafito:
And then if you do it organically, you won't get that greenish color that is so classic in spumoni and so classic in pistachio dessert. So that's why you have to add the gel.
Jessie Sheehan:
And tell us, is there a brand of gel that you guys love?
Renato Poliafito:
Is it Americolor?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah, Americolor.
Jessie Sheehan:
And gel is just better than food coloring that's liquid because it is just-
Renato Poliafito:
It's more concentrated.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. You're not adding liquid to a batter, let's say that maybe you don't want to add any more liquid to.
Renato Poliafito:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And some unsalted, toasted, roughly chopped pistachios. And we're going to fold that all up until combined and that's our second cake layer. And then in the last bowl of almond cake batter, we're going to add one drop of red food gel, some cherry preserves. Love. And fold until combined. Favorite brand of cherry preserves?
Renato Poliafito:
I usually use Bonne Maman.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love Bonne Maman.
Renato Poliafito:
Because you get bits of cherry. It's so cherry forward. It's great for baking, especially if you're doing a cherry dessert.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And then we're going to transfer each of these bowls of batter to their own nine-by-five-inch loaf pan. And we're going to spread in an even layer. And I think when I was first reading the recipe, I was picturing three big loaf cakes of each of these flavors. But it's actually just what? Like an inch or so of batter in each cake.
Renato Poliafito:
The recipe makes one cake. So you're splitting it into three different layers.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's like a third of a-
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. So they're only about an inch tall.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love, love, love, love. We spread it in even layer. We're going to bake the cakes until they're baked through, until they're springy when touched. So no toothpick? We're not doing a toothpick test?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. You could test ... They may bake off a little differently just because the bases are doctored. The chocolate might take a little longer, or the cherry might take a little longer because it has more liquid. It's that sort of thing. But yeah, you can do a toothpick test. Just make sure with the chocolate, you're not going through a piece of chocolate and then the cherry, you're not going through cherry.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you like your toothpicks clean or a little bit of moist crumbs?
Renato Poliafito:
I like a little bit of moist crumb where you pull it off and you create a little ball.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That's a little Baked trick. Always a moist crumb. And you have about 40 to 50 minutes for the baking time.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But like you said, the cakes may bake it slightly different times so check them each individually. And we're going to transfer the pans to a by a rack, let them cool about 20 minutes. And then we'll remove each cake from each pan using that parchment sling. Do we need to use a butter knife to cut at the edges to make sure they don't stick?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. No. I think the sling will... Since it goes over on four sides-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, you do a four-way sling.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Four-way sling.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, very fancy.
Renato Poliafito:
I know. I know.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, yeah. I only do a one-way sling. But you do a sling that ... Ah.
Renato Poliafito:
This way and this way. So that way it just pulls right out. There's no complications.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, brilliant.
Renato Poliafito:
But then, yeah, basically, once these are cooled, you trim them a little. You'll trim the top if the edges are a little dark.
Jessie Sheehan:
Make them sharp.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. Just sharpen them up.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll remove each cake from the pan using a parchment sling. We'll carefully remove the parchment paper, set them on wire racks to cool for about an hour. Now we'll assemble the cake. We will trim the top of the cake with a serrated knife to create level surfaces. We're going to place a big sheet of plastic wrap on the counter. How big?
Renato Poliafito:
Nine by five. Enough to just wrap it. Most bakers want to wrap things twice. So I would say if it's nine by five, 19x27, 27, 30 inches.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. We're going to place the pistachio layer in the center of the wrap, and like we just discussed, make sure there's enough plastic to cover the entire cake once all the layers are layered on top of each other. We're going to spread raspberry preserves on the top of the pistachio cake in an even layer. And is that Bonne Maman again?
Renato Poliafito:
Raspberry, yes. It could be your favorite raspberry jam. I just happen to be a loyalist with Bonne Maman. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to place the cherry layer of cake on top of the raspberry, lining up the sides of the cherry layer in the pistachio layer, spread some more raspberry preserves on top of the cherry layer. Finally, we're topping with our chocolate layer lining up our sides and we're going to wrap the cake really tightly in the plastic wrap. Place the cake into a clean loaf pan. Place it in the refrigerator to set at least four hours or overnight. So why do we do this?
Renato Poliafito:
If you've made cakes before, you want them to set, you want them to be nice and firm. Especially when the next step is pouring a glaze over it. You want it to be nice and cool so the glaze will set quickly. But basically you're assembling this cake upside down. You're starting with the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Pistachio, but you'll then flip it over.
Renato Poliafito:
Flip it over, and that'll be the top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it also this idea that by tightly wrapping it and refrigerating it, you're melding all the flavors? You're melding ... Even the shape of the cake will be that perfect shape that we want. So when we slice, it's not like we'll see a weird little gap at the edges.
Renato Poliafito:
It'll be like a nice clean cut. Usually, when you're making tricolores or making a full sheet of tricolores, you want to weigh it down to give a little more density to the cake, especially the little ones. This is like, I wanted there to be a little bit of volume. I wanted it to feel more like a cake. Because if it was too dense, it would be like, oh, this cake is really dense. So we're keeping it tight, but we're not really putting anything on it.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so interesting. But when you make the cookies, you actually-
Renato Poliafito:
Press it down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to line a baking sheet with parchment. We're going to set a wire rack on top, which I assume is to catch the glaze that's going to come after we pour the glaze on top of the cake. Remove the cake from the fridge and from the pan, unwrap it, place it on a cutting board. If the edges are at all angled or uneven, we're going to use a serrated knife to cut straight down on all sides. That's so Nato to me. It has to be very precise, which I love. We're going to remove any excess crumbs because those will be yucky when we glaze it and transfer the spumoni cake to the prepared wire rack. And now we're flipping it so the pistachio is the top layer. We're going to return it to the refrigerator while we make the glaze. Why?
Renato Poliafito:
Just to keep it cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to cross my T's and dot my I's.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love it.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to make the glaze. We're going to place chopped dark chocolate in a heatproof medium bowl. Preferably with a pour spout if you have it, which I don't, but maybe I need to get one. Are those with the spouts, are they usually glass?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. You could technically just use a measuring cup.
Jessie Sheehan:
A big-
Renato Poliafito:
Like a four-cup.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Which I have. I love my four-cup measuring cup. In a medium saucepan, we're going to bring heavy cream and corn syrup to a boil over medium heat, stirring frequently. Are we adding the corn syrup for shininess?
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. Shininess and I guess, pliability.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to say. Yeah.
Renato Poliafito:
You don't want it to crack. You want to be able to slice into it and have it sink.
Jessie Sheehan:
If people are not into corn syrup, can they use a Lyle's Golden Syrup or something like that?
Renato Poliafito:
Golden syrup will work as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you even use honey?
Renato Poliafito:
I've not used honey in this, but I don't see why not because it's the same consistency. I do find that honey dries things out, so I don't know how it would work with the chocolate or if maybe separate.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll stay away from it.
Renato Poliafito:
But the Lyle's would be a good substitute.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you actually bring it to a boil. So we see bubbles not a simmer, or is it like a simmering?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. The bubbles around the edge.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Renato Poliafito:
When you start seeing that, then it's good to go.
Jessie Sheehan:
Stirring frequently. Doesn't matter if we use a spatula or a spoon. Going to remove that from the heat. We're going to stir in some vanilla and some salt, and then we're going to pour that cream mixture over the chopped chocolate and just stir until the chocolate's completely melted.
Renato Poliafito:
Yep. Nice and shiny. Nice and glossy. Super smooth.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sometimes people will say like, "Oh, pour the hot liquid over the chocolate and then let it sit before you stir." Is this foolproof, like just start mixing?
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah. You can let it sit in there. So the chocolate just really breaks down and then stir. You may be saving yourself like a minute of work.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to set that aside to cool. About 30 minutes until it's slightly thickened. Can it still be warm when we use it, or should it be room temp?
Renato Poliafito:
I would say between room temp and a little warm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Now we remove the cake from the refrigerator and working very quickly we're going to first just quickly pour the glaze over each side of the cake so we make sure our sides are covered. Allowing the glaze to coat the layers all the way to the bottom of the cake completely.
Renato Poliafito:
Exactly. And this helps create that smooth finish. You're basically crumb coating it in a way, and it gets rid of any imperfections.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to pour the rest of the glaze on top of the cake, and then use an offset spatula. One of the tiny ones?
Renato Poliafito:
You can use a tiny or a large one. I find that it's easier to manipulate with a smaller one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll use an offset spatula. We'll smooth the top, pushing any extra glaze towards the edges and allowing it to run down the sides. Then we'll smooth the sides of the cake until the entire cake is covered in a nice even layer.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll top the cake ... I love this. With three small piles of chopped pistachios, like little nests lying down the center, and top each of those nests with a cherry. And we're going to return it to the refrigerator to set for an hour. Is that decoration from Nato's head or does it have some symbolism?
Renato Poliafito:
It's from Nato's head actually. When I was developing this recipe, I was working with Ginger. I think we were-
Jessie Sheehan:
Not the spice.
Renato Poliafito:
Oh, yes. An actual person.
Jessie Sheehan:
A person.
Renato Poliafito:
And I was just like, "Okay. It's a big brown log. We have to make this pretty." So I think it was this combination of just like, well, of course you want to know what's inside. Obviously you have the chocolate already. Pistachios and cherries.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love it.
Renato Poliafito:
It's just process of elimination.
Jessie Sheehan:
To serve, we'll use an offset spatula or maybe even two to transfer the cake to a platter. Allow it to sit at room temp for about 10 minutes, then we'll slice.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I just wanted to mention a couple of other recipes from the book that I love. Tell us a little bit about the Aperol spritz cake.
Renato Poliafito:
Ah, yes. So I'm not much of a drinker, but I do like a nice Aperol spritz. And I love the culture of aperitivo in Italy where it's just like everyone's drinking a spritz. They're eating their food. It's just such a fun, nice concept to me and one that I'm trying to bring over to the new restaurant. When we were creating our cake menu for Ciao, I wanted all the cakes ... Like how Baked had they were candy leaning. You had the malt ball, the lemon head, the red hot. I wanted these to lean Italian. So we have a pistachio cake, a lemon cake, a hazelnut cake. But I was like, "We need an Aperol spritz cake." Coming up with that cake and coming up with how the flavors of a spritz are represented ... Because if you know Aperol is a bitter. Doesn't really translate very well into a cake. But we used a little bit of Aperol in an orange curd, and then we used the Prosecco and the butter cream, and then we did it like a citrus layer cake. So you have all the components there for an Aperol spritz cake, but it's obviously it's cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about the malted tiramisu.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. Well, malted is something that I've just acquired a taste for over the years.
Jessie Sheehan:
It was such a Baked ingredient.
Renato Poliafito:
It was such a baked thing. Malt went into everything, and I think that was mostly Matt, because I think he just had an obsession with it. But it is a great flavor profile. It has this nice nuttiness, this earthiness. Not even earthiness but depth, the tiramisu I wanted a classic tiramisu in the book, but I wanted to add that twist to it. And I found that during one of the tests, adding malt to the espresso mixture and then adding malt to the mascarpone, the zabaione mixture gave the tiramisu a real depth of flavor. And I never knew that coffee and malt worked well together. I always thought malt and chocolate. There is chocolate in this .but the way it pairs with the coffee, it just gives it this robust, delicious sweetness that is suddenly present throughout the entire dessert. Originally, I had even made savoiardi, the ladyfingers with malt in them as well. But because we were using that recipe as a foundation recipe in different recipes out the book, I was just like, "Well, I'll just take the malt out of there, but add it to the other components."
Jessie Sheehan:
So good. And finally, I love this, honey ricotta black and whites.
Renato Poliafito:
Yes. Yeah. Well, I'm a huge black and white fan. I've always loved them, and I've always been on a mission to find the perfect one. And I did find the perfect one and the bakery, Glaser's, which was on the Upper East Side after a hundred plus years had closed down. And basically what theirs was almost like cupcake quality cake or cookie with frosting and just slathered on. And I was just like, "This is delicious. This is exactly what I want a black and white to be." So in homage to that, that's why we have more of a frosting on our black and white cookies. Like a spreadable type of glaze on it. And the cookie itself was a cookie we originally made for Ciao, a honey lemon ricotta cookie, but it didn't really sell very well. It wasn't very pretty. It was just like a domed yellow cookie with a little glaze on top. And I loved the taste of it, and I was like, what can we do to this to gussy it up? So I flipped it over and I was like, this looks like a black and white. It's almost the same. So I said, "Let's ice these as black and white and see what happens." And now it's my favorite, black and white.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Love that story.
Renato Poliafito:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Nato. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Renato Poliafito:
What an honor.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.