Yotam Ottolenghi and Noor Murad Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone. You're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Each week we feature interviews with the coolest culinary personalities around. I'll be talking to one of my favorite folks around, Yotam Ottolenghi, the culinary legend. I know so many of you adore his cookbooks, like Ottolenghi Simple.
Yotam has had such a big impact on getting more folks to expand their culinary horizons, turning countless folks onto Middle Eastern and Mediterranean foods and flavors and pantry items. He is a columnist for The New York Times Magazine and The Guardian, and he has several restaurants and delis in London. An Ottolenghi deli is not the same as the delis I grew up with here in New York City, but Yotam will tell us more.
Joining Yotam is Noor Murad, who might have the best job in the world. She's the head of the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen. She and Yotam collaborated on a new book from the Test Kitchen called Extra Good Things, and they're here to tell us all about it. A little housekeeping. Our annual Cooks and Books festival is taking place November 5th and 6th at Ace Hotel Brooklyn.
It's coming up soon. We've got panels, talks, and demos with so many amazing folks you've heard right here on Radio Cherry Bombe. Peeps like Ruth Reichl, Erin French, Grace Young, Tanya Holland, Athena Calderone, and lots of new friends too. If you love cookbooks and writers, this is the place to be. Snag your tickets and check out the talent lineup at cherrybombe.com.
Our bookstore partner is Kitchen Arts and Letters and they'll be selling signed copies of everyone's book all weekend. Speaking of the Ace, they've put together a special Cooks and Books room package for those of you coming to town for the festival or who maybe want to staycation.
The Cooks and Books package includes two all-access passes, plus the new issue of Cherry Bombe, ooh, a room with a view, and more. Visit acehotel.com/brooklyn for all the details. While you're at the Ace Hotel for Cooks and Books weekend, be sure to swing by their restaurant, As You Are, for a special Cooks and Books inspired pre-fixed menu. Let's thank today's sponsor, Hedley & Bennett. They just launched a brand new kitchen essential and founder Ellen Bennett is here to tell us more.
Ellen Marie Bennett:
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I've been there. I know you want that knife to feel good. We focused on the details that make it more comfortable than any other knife. It's incredibly lightweight and the top is slightly rounded and super ergonomic, so you don't get calluses on your fingers. It's Japanese steel, holds its edge, is beautiful, functional, and essential. In other words, it's the perfect tool for the pro chefs, for my home cooks out there and for everyone in between. We are so excited for you to try our Hedley & Bennett Chef's Knives for yourself. Visit hedleyandbennett.com for more.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you, Ellen. Ellen really is a stickler for detail. I attended her wedding and I can attest that she pays attention to detail. Now, let's check in with Yotam and Noor.
Yotam, Noor, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Thank you.
Noor Murad:
Thank you for having us.
Kerry Diamond:
This is so exciting. Yotam, three times on Radio Cherry Bombe.
Ellen Marie Bennett:
I know. I'm a veteran. I love being here. Thanks, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, it's so nice to see you in New York. We were trying to figure out the last time we saw each other and it might have been a long time ago in London.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
2017. Yeah, you came to speak to Helen and to me about our book, Sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
Helen Goh.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah, Helen Goh.
Kerry Diamond:
Noor, first-timer.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
What brings you to New York?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
We've got a new book out called Extra Good Things. It's from the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen or known also as OTK. It's a book that we are especially proud of, because for me, it captures this moment in time. It's all about those extra good things, which are condiments, or sauces, or sprinkles, things that you could use to, what we call "Ottolenghi-fy" your food. Things like flavor bombs, jars of wonderful things that really add a lot of flavor to your food. It relates to the our times in different ways. But during lockdowns, when we were all looking for ideas of what to cook, three meals a day, those are shortcuts to flavor, so you can make something quite simple and take those jars out of the cupboard and introduce all this flavor.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, you have been the king of the extra good thing for a long time, so very excited about this book. Did you make it to New York much during the pandemic?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
No. I was here earlier this year so in May, but otherwise, no I haven't been here for quite a while. It's really nice to be back. New York feels unchanged to me. I know a lot of locals would say, "Oh, this has changed and that has changed," but it's just so vibrant and there's just like the vibe is still there.
Kerry Diamond:
Noor, how about you? When's the last time you were in New York?
Noor Murad:
I was actually here earlier this year, in May, for one of my best friend's weddings, because I used to live here, so I have closer friends. It was just really amazing to fly out. But before that, I hadn't been since 2016.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you feel similar to Yotam, it hasn't changed that much?
Noor Murad:
I don't know. It is a bit weird, because I feel like your friends have kind of moved on with their lives. Everyone's doing their own things. Every time you come, it's like the city's changed a bit. Every time I come here, you always have this rush, because it just feels so good to be in this energy that is New York.
Kerry Diamond:
How...This is a crazy question to ask, because I know the answer. How are things in London? It has been quite a dramatic time for the U.K. [United Kingdom].
Noor Murad:
Yeah, there's so much drama.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah. We've had this kind of political upheaval. We've changed Prime Ministers more than we change our socks. It's just very, I don't know, it's just so weird, the world we live in and we are just kind of used to this drama. It's not good for the psyche, we need stability, we want, we yearn, stability and we just can't seem to be able to get it. But in the U.K. especially, it feels very, very haphazard.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, there's a lot we could talk about, about the world and what's wrong with the world, but I want to talk about what's right with the world. You two put out so much good stuff. Thank you for that, because it's a nice escape from all the craziness. Yotam, as you've been trying to get us to do your whole career is get people to cook and connect over food.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah. I like that you make this connection, because people ask us about the books and the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen cookbooks. This one is called Extra Good Things and the other one that came out last year is called Shelf Love. In some way, the story that they're telling is the story of the comfort that we find in the kitchen in these crazy days. There is a crisis, we're in constant crisis, or from one to the next, cost of living, wars, pandemic. The one place that people really found comfort is in their kitchens.
We kind of embrace that and we say, "Okay well if we're going to be spending so much time in the kitchen, which we are, let's make it a bit easier for you. Let's see how you could cook with ingredients." Shelf Love is about the accessible ingredients that you find in your cupboards, your chickpeas, or your frozen corn, or things that are just there in the kitchen all the time, and make them the center of your meals. Extra Good Things is about making a dish and then having a little extra to start off your next dish.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of happy places, before we talk about the book, I want to talk about the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen, because in my mind, and I've said this to you, I feel like it's this kind of magical place. Not quite Willy Wonka, I don't think you're walking around dressed like Willy Wonka, and singing songs, and reciting weird lines from Shakespeare. It just seems like such a dreamy happy place. Noor, how did you wind up in the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen?
Noor Murad:
I moved to London six years ago from Bahrain. Yeah, I was working at Ottolenghi Spitalfields, which is one of our delis. Then the Test Kitchen job kind of came up and I heard about it and I was like, "What is this Test Kitchen?" I had never heard of it. I wasn't really sure what people did there. I was like, "Oh, so you test recipes all day and you eat them?"
Kerry Diamond:
That's what we think. We're like, "You test recipes all day and you eat them?"
Noor Murad:
Yeah. I was like, "That sounds great, sign me up." Now, it's been five years. You made the Willy Wonka reference, but I always say it kind of is like that, because it's such a creative, happy place. Except there's no chocolate, there's just loads of tahini. Everyone there is such a diverse team of creatives and everyone comes from different culture, different backgrounds, so they're kind of like the Test Kitchen Avengers, because everyone has their super power and whatever they're good at. Whether it's Middle Eastern flavors, or my other colleague's from Mauritius, so she brings the island vibes, and the coconut and the limes, and everyone kind of has their own hand in the recipes they create.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you decide, like this is what we're going to do today? I mean, I know there's structure, it's a workplace, it's not this fantasy place.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
There's a little bit of fantasy, but I think the way it works is that, so this Test Kitchen started as a small thing. It was a place where I worked with one other person, and then another person, to create new recipes for cookbooks or for the newspapers that we have recipes in. Essentially, and I realized at an early stage, that in order to come up with really good new recipes, you need to own them. The recipes are not kind of designed by a committee at the Test Kitchen. We don't all sit down and say, "Oh, that would be a good idea," and then...
Essentially, it starts off with a conversation. It can be that we discuss together, but ideas come from one person and they follow that recipe through. For me, this is really important, that sense of ownership. The same applies for the restaurants. The chefs in the restaurants have, pretty much, freedom to create their own recipes. Then, we do it under an understanding of what Ottolenghi food is, what it is to create a dish under the guise of an Ottolenghi recipe. But then it could be, if someone really has a history with Mexican cooking, so it could be Mexican, or it could be Bahraini, or it could be North African, or it could be all sorts of things, but we understand what we mean by Ottolenghi.
Kerry Diamond:
Mm-hmm. Tell us what else is in the Ottolenghi world?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
We run restaurants and delis in London. There's seven altogether. We've got our recipes in The Guardian and The New York Times. Apart from that, we do YouTube videos in which we kind of show the recipes obviously through videos and then a bunch of social media. We also develop recipes for our restaurants and delis. As I said, I mean each chef is in charge of their own menus, but we also have conversations going on and cross conversations and we are kind of working on turning the Test Kitchen into the hub, the creative hub for the whole company.
Kerry Diamond:
When you say deli, so where I grew up, a deli was akin to a bodega, in New York, but what you call a deli is not quite a deli.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I think this is where you cross the Atlantic Ocean and you have different terms signifying the things. This is not a deli in the New York sense of the deli, or American, this is-
Kerry Diamond:
My parents would send me to the deli to get a pound of bologna to make our lunches all week, when I was a kid at school.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Nothing like that.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Noor Murad:
Ottolenghi bologna?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Now there's a thing.
Kerry Diamond:
That could be a thing, just give me credit when that happens. People would line up to buy that, come on.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah.
Noor Murad:
We'll call it a Cherry Bombe bologna.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Cherry Bombe bologna.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't think that'll sell as well. A Cherry Bombe-boloni, but-
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Bombologna.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Bombologna.
Kerry Diamond:
But Ottolenghi bologna will do much better than Cherry Bombe bologna. So Noor, what is a deli in London?
Noor Murad:
The ones in London, it's kind of, you come in and what Ottolenghi is very well known for is just these big displays. All these displays are very vibrant, abundant, inviting salads. Then, there's another display which is the pastry display. It's all the cakes and these big, pillowy, cloudy meringues. That's what you think of when you go to Ottolenghi. It's always in the windows and these are basically the delis. People can come in and take something to go or they can come and sit down and have a bunch of different plates.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
There's a lot of beautiful food on display that's freshly cooked every single day or baked. It creates that kind of sense of occasion.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, I think it's quite, like I would say very Middle Eastern. That's the Middle Eastern part of you that has come in, because it's very much like you've come to my house and I'm going to give you an array of all these different choices and you can choose what you like. It's very abundant, in that sense.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
In a way, it's a little bit like the market, because it's vertical, so you kind of pile it up high and that's what you see in markets. But obviously not with raw ingredients, but we do it with cooked food and your vision is just kind of completely covered by those displays, which is essential for the Ottolenghi look. There's these flower arrangements, et cetera. It's sensual and it's inviting.
Kerry Diamond:
The Ottolenghi Test Kitchen is a very international place. How has that evolved over the years?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I suppose it is that people come to work at the Test Kitchen if they've got a certain degree of expertise, when they've cooked in restaurants or other environments in the past, but you don't need to be of a particular background. It just happens that people come and bring their own... Whoever comes to cook in the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen has their own history, whether it's where they grew up or where they cooked as professionals.
That's all welcome, because in some ways, all these experiences make the Test Kitchen interesting. Noor brings with her food that she cooked or was exposed to as a child and as growing up. Then also, she went to the Culinary Institute of Americas here. That is a particular way of cooking. Then, working in restaurants in New York. Then, every person has their own story. That really contributes to how diverse the dishes are and you can see really interesting stuff happening just by the fact that so many people have different backgrounds.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good way to tee up our question, for Noor, what's your story?
Noor Murad:
My story? I come from Bahrain, I grew up in Bahrain. My dad is Bahraini and my mom is English, but she's lived there for 40 years, so she's an honorary Bahraini now. Bahrain is really unique. I think a lot of people don't really know much about the food culture there. When people think about Arabic food, they think of hummus and fatteh and all these really delicious things, but there's a lot more.
It's a lot richer than that. There's so much more to it. It's very diverse. In Bahrain, the food is kind of a mixture of Persian flavors, so really herb heavy, and dried limes and these sour flavors. But then, we use a lot of Indian spices. We love our spicy food in Arabic dishes, so it's a lot of big, grand rice dishes. Paired with my mom's English shepherd's pies and the cauliflower cheese.
I kind of always mix these two things in the way I cook. I got into food really young. I was about 16 when I got my first job, a summer job in a kitchen. I just fell in love with the chaos of it all. It was just so intense and crazy, but I really loved that rush and I think that's what kind of pulled me in. Then, I went and moved to New York. Studied at the CIA [Culinary Institute of America] and worked here and stuff.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you wind up in the U.S. [United States] for that?
Noor Murad:
I always say you don't need to go to culinary school. I think your school is working in kitchens, but it's great when you live somewhere in New York or you live somewhere in like London, where it's so diverse. There's so many places you can go work in. But in Bahrain, I don't think you have that so much.
For me, I was kind of like, I just researched it. I was like, "Oh, where would I want to go?" Then, I found it and I was like, "Wow, that looks like a really impressive, amazing school." I was very nervous moving to America. I just felt like I was from this tiny island and very shy. I mean nobody would think that now, because I'm so loud and quite outspoken. But before, I kept all my opinions to myself. Then, I came to New York and it was just, yeah, I felt like it was this larger than life place with such big personalities. But I think it also helped me find my voice and my personality in food. Then, yeah, I went back to Bahrain, but I still had this, I guess, urge for a big city life. I think that's maybe small island syndrome or something. Then, ended up moving to London six years ago. That's kind of my story in a nutshell.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you get the job in the Test Kitchen?
Noor Murad:
I typed up my resume and I sent an email. I sent it to the Ottolenghi contact email and I was like... Then I just thought to myself, I remember my finger was hovering over the button and I was like, "Am I really doing this? Is anyone going to respond to this girl in Bahrain?" I really was like, "Well why not? Why now?" Then I just sent it and I got a response from Sami, Sami Tamimi.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, Sami.
Noor Murad:
Yeah. I was totally fangirling over Sami, which is funny now because we have this banter between us. I remember when he responded, I was like, "Oh my god." I remember I called my mom, I was like, "Sami Tamimi just sent me..." I screen shot it just in case I never heard from him again or whatever. Then I remember I was visiting London anyway that summer to visit my grandma with my mom and then ended up meeting Sami, having a chat, and the rest is history.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so exciting.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You were working in front of the house essentially before the Test Kitchen or... Oh no, I thought you had worked in one of the spaces first before you worked-
Yotam Ottolenghi:
She actually did, in the kitchen.
Noor Murad:
In the kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh got it, got it, got it. Okay. Okay. Then you moved from that to the Test Kitchen proper?
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Got It. Okay. How did you make that leap from that kitchen to the Test Kitchen?
Noor Murad:
I think it was luck, if I'm honest.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I think it was a bit more than luck.
Noor Murad:
No, because you always had two people with you. Then Esme [Robinson] and Ixta [Belfrage] at the time.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah. But I mean in a sense, the way it works, recently, it's changed a bit, but people come to work in the Test Kitchen after they've worked in the kitchens. If they're good in the kitchen and also they show creativity, then maybe they would get a chance in the Test Kitchen. But I think Noor obviously is a great chef and she was a great chef in the kitchen. I knew, and Cornelia [Staeubli], who was in charge of her in Ottolenghi, knew that she's got what it takes. Then she came and you did a day?
Noor Murad:
Yeah, a trial week actually, had a week. Yeah.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
It was a whole week?
Noor Murad:
Yeah, it was a whole week. I remember, you basically typed up these four ideas, and it was a sentence each or something, and I just had to lead with these recipes. I remember it was just so different than working on the line or working in a kitchen, I was like, "Oh my god." Actually, one of the recipes ended up being published in Flavor, the noodles with the mushroom larb.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oh yes, that's right.
Noor Murad:
That was from my trial week. It was a good trial week I think.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Now it works a bit differently, but I used to write briefs for ideas for the week. One of the things that makes a really good recipe tester, apart from having the background and the richness of kind of experience, et cetera, is the ability to start with something and then transform it into something else. Because when you develop recipes, you often have an idea, but you need to be super flexible, because things happen along the way and you need to evolve until you get to where you want to get.
You have to have that kind of confidence that you go, "Okay, I started with one thing, we had an idea, but I really wanted to... the only way around it with this ingredient is to change it." It's quite a profound thing to be able to as a cook, to start with one idea and really kind of say to yourself, "Okay, well actually, this is not quite working. Let's take some of these things, elements, and turn them into something else."
Kerry Diamond:
Noor, you seem like a humble person though. I can't imagine you were walking around that Test Kitchen like you owned it week one.
Noor Murad:
No, I remember I was so nervous and everyone was really quiet in the Test Kitchen then. Kitchens are loud.
Kerry Diamond:
Then?
Noor Murad:
Yeah, then, and then I came. Kitchens are really loud and the Test Kitchen, everyone was so quiet, because it is kind of like an office slash kitchen at the same time, because there's still a lot of writing, and editing, and all that kind of stuff to be done. I remember coming in and being afraid to turn on the tap because I was like, "Oh my god, it's going to make so much noise." Now, it's become a much louder place because we built the team up. There's 10 of us now, there's no quiet and there's a lot of ideas bouncing around all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
Also, I feel like I interviewed you virtually once and you were in the Test Kitchen. Do you have a subway overhead?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oh yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you call the subway overhead there?
Noor Murad:
Oh yeah, the tube.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
We had had a train. We recently moved last year from Camden to Holloway. When we were in Camden, we were just under one of the railway lines.
Kerry Diamond:
Because it was like the subway, pots and pans. When you described it as quiet, I was like, "I don't remember that."
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah, it's funny. Now, we've got a better environment. It's bigger, and there's more light, and more space for us to do our things. The thing is that you need to concentrate. You need to be able to be in your own space, first of all, to record everything that goes on. Testing recipes is the opposite of cooking in some ways, because when you cook, if more or less what you're doing, then you just act freely. But when you test recipes, every action you need to measure or count.
It's so counterintuitive when you just want to add a pinch of salt just to make it better. Then you need to draw the measuring spoon and check exactly how much you're adding. As a cook, you need to really transform your habits. I remember when I was actively testing recipes, which I don't really do much now, I remember I would go home and cook and I'd just bring out the measuring spoons. I'd go like, "Why did you take out the measuring spoons? What's that for?" It's literally an instinct to bring out the measuring spoons.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Well it's so funny, I feel like a lot of your career, Yotam, has been to free people from the cookbook to think for themselves and to do interesting things. But I was reading through some of your recipes on the New York Times and folks want that direction, they want that help. It's so interesting to me because as much as your books have done so much to help us in terms of thinking differently about ingredients and techniques and all of that, there's just still that expertise we all want to latch onto.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I think one of the things that people often ask is why is it so detailed? Sometimes, there's these comedy moments and people write down, "Are you sure an eighth of a teaspoon, what's that all about? What is even an eighth of a teaspoon?"
Kerry Diamond:
I love my eighth of a teaspoon measurement. I use that one.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Exactly. Then I think Noor and I often have these conversations and just generally in the Test Kitchen we go, for me, if you have a really detailed description of what it is that you're aiming for, then anyone can choose how many of those details they want to follow, and how much they want to follow their instincts, and their experience. But it's almost like a record. It's there, it's recorded, we know exactly what we're aiming for.
Then if you choose to do it differently or you choose to just follow it just as a kind of guideline, it's absolutely fine. It's almost like even better. But people who don't have that experience with this particular cuisine, with this particular dish, then they go and follow it. Sometimes, it can make such a big difference. The measurements of a pan can make such a difference to a dish, whether it's kind of roasted or stewed. It makes all the difference. We do that and then as I say, people can choose what they want to take out of the recipe.
Kerry Diamond:
Noor, you're nodding.
Noor Murad:
Yes. No, I mean, it's just as Yotam says, there's such a rigorous testing process in the Test Kitchen. You start off with an idea and then you just kind of bring it to life. Sometimes, you'll test it two, three times until you get there. Sometimes, you'll test it way more, like eight, 10 times. It kind of goes through this transformation, but all the dishes that Ottolenghi is known for is layering of flavors, it all does start with just paying attention to these little details because it really does make a huge difference.
Kerry Diamond:
This book feels different to me, Extra Good Things, in that it's designed to be very teachable. I mean, the photography's still great in this, but it's not the traditional beautiful photo headnote recipe. Tell us about this book. Was your intention really to make this more teachable?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yes, definitely. This book and the one that came before it, Shelf Love, are kind of like a subcategory in the Ottolenghi cookbook. They're called the OTK books, the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen books. They're a series and essentially what they are is we are trying to give you a special kind of view into the Test Kitchen so it teaches you a particular skill. The skill that we teach you in this particular book is how to take a recipe and take something out of it that would enable you to cook another meal with less effort. If it's like we've got these za’atar tomatoes, these are cherry tomatoes that have been slowly cooked in olive oil, and then have, once they've kind of confited a bit, then we add certain herbs to them and there's some balsamic vinegar.
It's like sweet, savory tomatoes. That jar is such an amazing shortcut for flavor. You use it once for the polenta dish that they're meant for, so you cook the dish, and then you keep it in the fridge for a couple of days and then you can put it on your roasted potato, or toast, or whatever it is you choose to use it for. It's such a wonderful skill to have because in some ways, it saves you time, but it also makes you a very versatile cook. You don't need to think every time, I'm going to go out and I'm going to get all the ingredients and start fresh. I'm actually carrying something from one meal or one preparation to the next.
Kerry Diamond:
My immediate reaction to this book was this is more jazz to your other books being like the classical. You're just like Mozart.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Well, this is really Noor's brainchild. In some ways, Noor was at the heart of the Test Kitchen and is the person who runs it during the pandemic. I'm not going to call it a pandemic cookbook, because it's good for any time and those skills that we learned during the pandemic or skills that we take with us forward to the future, but in some ways, that notion that you can create those chili oils, and sprinkles, and marinades is something that we actually did while we're testing recipes, or while we were stuck at home testing recipes. It's from the real world. It's not from someone's kind of head.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, like I said, I definitely got the sense that this was about allowing people to improv more, and to riff, and to do all those things that sometimes folks are afraid to do. They feel so beholden to a recipe, but I feel like letting people break free from that.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, definitely. I think that's really what we want people to take out from these books, is both of the books, Shelf Love and now Extra Good Things, they teach someone a skill to where Shelf Love is all about using up what you have and making humble ingredients shine, Extra Good Things is really about learning to find those things that you love about recipes, that extra good thing, and then mixing and matching, and using it in different ways to elevate any meal. That's really what we want people to take away from this book.
Kerry Diamond:
This book is out in the U.K. already. What has been the most popular thing so far? Something always inevitably bubbles up.
Noor Murad:
Okay. First, the two things I'm seeing a lot of. The savory one is the Sunshine Salad a lot of people are making. I don't know, maybe because the name is great, sunshine on a plate.
Kerry Diamond:
I was going to say, I don't even care what's in it, I would want to eat a Sunshine Salad.
Noor Murad:
I know. It is a Sunshine Salad actually and it's the easiest thing to do as well. But it's very beautiful. It's very striking, because of the dressing, which is the takeaway, it's the extra. It's basically carrots, and miso, and ginger, and rice vinegar, and soy sauce. It's all blitzed together onto a plate. It's this bright orange beautiful dressing that it's like drinkable. You could have it as a savory smoothie or something. Actually, the salad dressing is based on, you know those carrot dressings you get in a lot of Japanese restaurants?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, which I've always wanted to make at home.
Noor Murad:
Okay, well now-
Kerry Diamond:
Is this it?
Noor Murad:
That's exactly the inspiration, because there was this Japanese restaurant that I used to go to with my uni friends in college and it was that dressing. I've always like, "Oh, I need to put this in... I need to recreate this somehow and put it into a recipe." That's-
Kerry Diamond:
You cracked the code for us?
Noor Murad:
I think I cracked it. Well, I've cracked it with an Ottolenghi twist. Then, it's piled with avocados, and cucumbers, and sesame seeds, or red onions. It is a really beautiful thing and so many people have made it. I was actually surprised. I didn't think that was one that people are going to go for as much.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
You're asking about recipes that you see being cooked. We know sometimes you know what's going to be a hit and sometimes you have no idea which ones are going to spark people's imaginations. But the one that I always knew was going to be a hit is the Parmigiana Pie. It's a parmigiana, essentially, but with kind of a Middle Eastern twist. The tomato sauce, has sweet spices, cumin and cinnamon. It's got a bit of heat.
It's got chopped up cilantro and then the eggplant is layered with cheese and this particular sauce. Then, it ends up with a layer of kataifi pastry, which is this kind of crunchy pastry used for making baklavas and desserts. But it's just so wonderful, and who doesn't like a parmigiana, or moussaka? All these kinds of wonderful things that have fried or grilled eggplants. But this one has that kind of twist, but it does have that kind of stretchy cheese. Beautiful. Even the image has that in it. That's obviously been cooked quite a bit.
Kerry Diamond:
The stretchy cheese.
Noor Murad:
I mean, yeah, everyone loves a cheese stretch.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. Yotam, I was looking at some of your recent recipes in The New York Times and I love to read the comments. I'm sorry, I know you're not supposed to read the comments, but I-
Noor Murad:
I read all the comments too.
Kerry Diamond:
Well you know what, I think that's good if you're a recipe developer.
Noor Murad:
There's actual conversations happening between people.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, and they're not fighting and talking about politics, they're talking about substitutions. People are endlessly inquisitive about substitutions and you can make a chocolate tart and they'll be like, "Can I put chickpeas in this?"
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah, I know.
Kerry Diamond:
Or, "Can I put eggplant in this?"
Noor Murad:
Yeah. Recently, I was reading one of our recipes in The New York Times and there was a whole thing about where to get cardamom pods from, and I said to myself, I was like, "Is it hard to get cardamom pods in America?" I'm really confused.
Kerry Diamond:
In a sense, it's also just so beautiful.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
People want to make these dishes, they want to adapt them to what they have at home.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Totally. I think that there is, people fall in love with a dish when you see a beautiful image and it sparks your imagination and you want to make it even if you can't even eat half of the things in the thing. Actually, Nigella and I spoke about, Nigella Lawson and I spoke about it in the past and she wrote somewhere, "It's as if, I think, everybody thinks that every dish should be for every person." She says, "It's actually not so true." She said, "Actually, we should fight back."
She said, "Not every dish should be for every person, every dish should be for a group of people. Then, the other dish would be for the other people." We were kind of having this kind of moment, because in some ways there's so many recipes around and people always ask me to substitute something. I always say, "Let's find another recipe for you." Because over the years I've published thousands of recipes, and often, you can really find something else. But I agree with you that these comments and these conversations are priceless, because it's so nice when people embrace what you've just done, what you've had to offer, and we're going to cook that.
Kerry Diamond:
It gets you into the mind of the people who are making your recipes in a way that people in maybe another field just never have that access. Someone who makes music or someone who writes books.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I know. But that's actually also a new thing, and I find that it's quite amazing, that the first book that I published was the Ottolenghi Cookbook and that came out in 2008. I think about it, like it feels, so this is pre-social media, that's when it started. But I do feel like I have so much more insight into how people cook from the recipes now, than I had in the past. That's really useful.
Because when we have our conversations about books, which obviously, we always have, and recipes, we are really well informed. We know what people like. We know what Americans like. We know what British people like. We know how people are going to react to New York Times recipes, how they're going to react to Guardian recipes. They're all very different things. We have a proper insight.
Kerry Diamond:
Yotam, your co-authors always bring their own flavor and flair to the books. What would you say Noor bring to this one?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oh my God, so much. All the stuff that we've talked about so far, that kind of growing up in Bahrain and having those particular flavors is absolutely there, but it doesn't really capture all of it, because it is about... So even if we talk about that Parmigiana Pie, so it's definitely not a Bahraini dish in any stretch of the imagination. It's got a bit of that sensibility. But then it's got, so the Americans make parmigiana by tossing the eggplants in, pane them with breadcrumbs and then frying or grilling.
In Italy, they don't do that. They don't put the breadcrumbs in. There's already kind of, that's a bit of America. There's a bit of that and a bit of that, but it's all very subtle and you don't often can put your finger on it. But the ability to bring things together like that from different cultural references or just private history is what I find really interesting. No, not interesting, but just delicious. Those things are just great things. I can see that in every recipe that Noor develops. It's that kind of creativity that comes from this very varied experience.
Kerry Diamond:
Noor, what recipe do you really feel your fingerprint is on?
Noor Murad:
The Green Herb Frittata with the burnt aubergine, because I didn't invent the wheel with this dish. It's based on a Persian Kuku Sabzi, which is a herb frittata. It's kind of a combination of Kuku Sabzi and Kuku Bademjan, which is the one with aubergine in it. Yeah, it's just such a beautiful dish in that you take so many herbs, so loads of dill, loads of coriander, loads of parsley, and you blitz them with eggs to make this frittata with burnt aubergines that are laying on the top.
Then, on the side, you have this pomegranate salsa with sumac and red onion, and it's really lemony and delicious. Anything with lots of herbs in the base of foods and those lemony flavors, then I probably had my hand in it, because a lot of people cook with herbs, it's just a finishing touch. Whereas in Iran and throughout the gulf, it really is kind of used into the base of dishes. Because when you cook a herb, it just becomes so fragrant, and it has a deep flavor, and the color completely transforms, and your whole kitchen smells so delicious.
It's also, they're quite a cheap ingredient, bundles of herbs. But sometimes people will see, if they're not used to it, they'll see a recipe like 250 grams of herbs and you're like, "What? Why would I need a quarter of a kilo of herbs?" But really, it kind of is such a great thing to cook with.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Noor does it with, in a kind of way, the Persian sensibility, but that kind of also chimes with in Israel and in Palestine you have those kinds of highly, the taboulis, which is literally just partially with a bit of bulgur wheat, et cetera. You see this echoed in the other side of the Middle East with those flavors. I can immediately relate to that also. Then, you added that kind of beautiful pomegranate and herbs also to go with, just to freshen it up. It's wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
I have to say the word, because I just interviewed your friend Nigella Lawson. I was saying herb as she was saying herb, and I was like, "Oh, I missed my opportunity to call it herb for the first time," which feels so weird coming out of my mouth. But herbs-
Noor Murad:
Why was the H ever dropped?
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know. That's a great question. The only American who doesn't-
Noor Murad:
I mean, where did it go?
Kerry Diamond:
Here's a question for you two. Who's the only American who doesn't drop the H when she says herb?
Noor Murad:
Is it Ina Garten?
Kerry Diamond:
No.
Noor Murad:
Oh, we were just talking about her.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oh?
Noor Murad:
I don't know?
Kerry Diamond:
Martha [Stewart].
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oh, Martha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course.
Kerry Diamond:
She always says herb.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Of course, she's got a lot of British friends.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of Nigella though, she was advocating for dried herbs. I just go back to my mom's kitchen where she had the same herbs, Herbs for a decade. They were basically just like dust.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Oergano, and-
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly.
Noor Murad:
Dust.
Kerry Diamond:
Thyme.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Yeah. Yeah.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
What did Nigella say?
Kerry Diamond:
She's pro-dried herbs. She feels they've gotten better.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I have to say, we holiday before the pandemic and then for the first time this year in Greece, they use a lot of dried oregano. When you get it there and it's super fresh, it's just like I could add it to every single thing, and it's so, so good that I completely... And obviously, it adds a completely different quality to fresh. It kind of is like with a Greek salad or with slow cooked beans, et cetera, you add it at the end and you get something which is really aromatic and has that kind of sense of the soil in it almost.
Noor, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel the same applies to dried mint. It brings a really different, completely different thing. That often in recipes, we would mix fresh mint and dried mint, the same way as we do with dried chilies and fresh chilies, something happens when you dry, it concentrate's the flavor and you get really complete iteration.
Noor Murad:
Yeah. I think if you just bloom those dried herbs in hot oil just a bit, it kind of awakens them. That's like when you're making a sauce, like pasta sauce, you saute your onions, you add your garlic, and then you add a bit of dried oregano to that base with the olive oil, it kind of awakens this, yeah, whatever it is. We'll do the same with mint. If you're making a cucumber and mint yogurt with fresh mint, then if you just heat up some olive oil and take it off the heat and just drop in some dried mint and it like sizzles, and you pour that over this creamy yogurt. It just kind of is so fragrant and delicious and adds this-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Instead of just dumping the dried oregano in the tomato sauce or something.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, yeah.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I've never thought about that metaphor, Noor. That's a nice metaphor. It awakens it.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I know, I like this.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, it's sleeping, otherwise. It's just dust.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you excited to see in New York, while you're here?
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Okay, so today we went for lunch with Francis Lam.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
We had this incredible-
Kerry Diamond:
Lunch with Francis.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
As we do.
Kerry Diamond:
Host of The Splendid Table.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
I'm just going to open-
Noor Murad:
It was called Wu's Wontons in Chinatown.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Wu's Wonton in Chinatown.
Noor Murad:
It's, oh my God. It was so good.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
It was so good.
Noor Murad:
Yeah. It was delicious.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Noor, you want to talk about your friend's bakery, right?
Noor Murad:
Oh yeah, I really do. I have this real sense of pride now, because there's a bakery, it opened this year, called Librae Bakery. It's amazing. My friend Dona Murad, we have the same last name, but it's a different Murad family. Anyway, she's Bahraini and she opened up this bakery with her husband who is American. He's Jewish and she's Bahraini, so they kind of combine those two cultures into this amazing bakery.
They're really well known for this lumee lemon curd babka. Lumeei is a black lime, which is a dried lime. It's super sour and bitter and earthy. We use them a lot in Bahrain. Yeah, she's kind of injected it into there, and yeah, anyone should go check it out. It's amazing what they're doing.
Kerry Diamond:
I've had it, and it's a very female forward team as well.
Noor Murad:
Yeah, it really is. The head chef there, I've met her, she's lovely. Yeah, she's just boss lady in the kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Beautiful baked goods. I warn anybody who goes there, you are going to want to try everything.
Noor Murad:
Absolutely.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Noor brought some to the hotel yesterday. We were just kind of opening all those bags and having those halva in this pastry and it was like, it was just endlessly delicious.
Noor Murad:
It was. I just felt this real sense of pride and it was, yeah, it was just amazing to see.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, good. Well, everybody's got to get over there and try a few things. If you are in London, got to see our friends at one of Ottolenghi places, of which there are many.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
The deli, don't order bologna.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
The deli or the restaurant.
Noor Murad:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, well it was so good to see you two. Yotam, it's always a pleasure.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
And Noor, I'm so happy to have a new friend and welcome to the Bombesquad.
Noor Murad:
Thank you. Thank you for the Bombesquad. I love it.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, enjoy the rest of your trip.
Yotam Ottolenghi:
Thanks, Kerry.
Noor Murad:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Yotam Ottolenghi and Noor Murad for joining me. If you'd like to pick up a copy of Extra Good Things, head to your favorite local bookstore. Don't forget our Cooks and Books festival taking place November 5th and 6th at Ace Hotel Brooklyn. Check out cherrybombe.com to snag your tickets and thank you to Kerrygold for their support. Also thank you to today's sponsor, Hedley & Bennett. Head to hedleyandbennett.com for more.
Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thanks to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. Thank you to our friends at CityVox Studios and to our assistant producer Jenna Sadhu. Thank you for listening. You are the Bombe.